Men Who Hate Pretty Women
Let’s say I see a woman and she looks really pretty and really clean and sexy and she’s giving off very feminine, sexy vibes. I think, wow I would love to make love to her, but I know she’s not interested. It’s a tease. A lot of times a woman knows that she’s looking really good and she’ll use that and flaunt it and it makes me feel like she’s laughing at me and I feel degraded…
If I were actually desperate enough to rape somebody it would be from wanting that person, but also it would be a very spiteful thing, just being able to say ‘I have power over you and I can do anything I want with you’ because really I feel that they have power over me just by their presence. Just the fact that they can come up to me and just melt me makes me feel like a dummy, makes me want revenge.
When talking to men about women, Michael Kimmel, one of the nation’s leading researchers on men and masculinity, found that many men’s reactions became surprisingly aggressive. He cites a Men’s Health survey which found that one third of men believed women should be reported for sexual-harassment for their provocative dress. Or, a college chaplain claimed, “The way young women dress in the spring constitutes a sexual assault upon every male within eyesight of them.”
Kimmel says the anger comes from men feeling entitled to women’s bodies. And he says that’s not so surprising given all the “come-on” scantily clad images that surround them, whether in mainstream media or porn. According to Kimmel:
Guys believe that they are entitled to women’s bodies, entitled to sex. Unfortunately for them, a significant number of women don’t see it that way. And when entitlement is thwarted guys seek revenge.
Curiously, while psychologists, feminists and the legal system see male aggression as the initiation of violence, guys describe it not as initiation but as retaliation. What are they retaliating against? The power that women have over them.
All this came as a shock to me. I had known that many men love seeing sexy women on the street, in a bar, at work… I hadn’t known that others found the same visions torturous, as they craved what they couldn’t have. And resented the “rejection.” Maybe some men feel both ways, pleasure and resentment all at once.
The opposing perspectives are striking. Men who enjoy sexy women often feel powerful, believing the women choose to dress alluringly for their pleasure, to please men. Some even think women dress provocatively to feel sexual pleasure in feeling desired. Men who feel this way are turned on, and not angry.
Whether experienced as pleasure or pain, an awful lot of men take women’s appearance personally, thinking it’s about them.
Yet most women dress for their own self-esteem, leading to a double-bind when it comes to dressing sexy: damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Women feel tremendous pressure to be beautiful because society rewards them. Their self-worth often depends on it. But then women can end up objectified — being seen as all about sex and little else, or (now we know) leaving some men angry at them.
What’s a girl to do? What’s a guy to do?
Here are some thoughts. Maybe you have some ideas, too.
Some men learn that they should have power over women so that when it’s the other way around, they may feel angry and resentful. See women as your equals — neither less-than nor better-than — and respect them.
Some men come to feel entitled to women’s bodies. Know that we are all entitled to our own bodies, first and foremost.
To those who think that women flaunt their beauty as they laugh and degrade you, know that that’s not what’s happening. Women are simply trying to do what society tells them to do: look beautiful.
Many women and men unfortunately learn to see women in one-dimensional ways that are based on narrow notions of “beauty.” How about expanded vision? Why not enjoy beauty in its many forms and see women as people rather than sexy objects. And instead of being angry at women who aren’t interested in you, see the beauty of those who are.
A commentor calling himself Ocelot wrote an interesting reaction to this that I published, with permission, as a blog post. “Seeing Women as Magic and Evil” offers help for men struggling with this issue.
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Posted on December 12, 2011, in feminism, gender, men, objectification, psychology, rape and sexual assault, sex and sexuality, sexism, women and tagged feminism, gender, men, men's health, objectification, psychology, rape and sexual assault, sex and sexuality, sexism, women. Bookmark the permalink. 522 Comments.
“To those who think that women flaunt their beauty as they laugh and degrade you, know that that’s not what’s happening. Women are simply trying to do what society tells them to do: look beautiful.” Sometimes it isn’t even about following what society tells you, sometimes women just want to dress up for themselves, making themselves happy. I know so many girls who dress up for themselves and no one else. Well at least they used to until they were crushed by everyone around them. Telling them you a “slut”, “you need to respect yourself”, “ how can you dishonor your family, doing such stupid things.” Hearing this from strangers doesn’t affect you as much as when you hear it from your own family. They try to stand their ground and not change for anyone but fighting for yourself against the world can sometimes be to difficult. So many people give comments on someone else’s life or appearance as if it was theirs but it isn’t. No one belongs to anyone else. They don’t owe it to anyone to dress up for them or to make them look good, as if they are above others because of how their partner looks. We individually represent
I find it ironic that men are angry and retaliatory over the “power that women have over them” when women are simply living their normal, everyday existences since it entirely highlights the heteronormativity in society—I encounter plenty of handsome and attractive men day in and day out and I manage to maintain composure and poise regardless. I think that it is certainly true that when we come across someone who is attractive or otherwise “our type” so to speak there is certainly a degree of power differential to deal with and the key is to not give in to this while going about our business. For men to be angry and feel attacked by this I think exposes a key aspect of toxic masculinity that men are inherently uncontrollable and therefore it is the woman’s fault for making them feel this way.
The notion of entitlement to a woman’s body is a confusing one that compounds onto the issue of the power differential of attraction. It is such a fundamentally flawed notion that men “deserve” and “are entitled” to women that it would almost be comedic to recognize how the realization that this is not true for certain men causes them immense discomfort if it weren’t so detrimental to the lives of the women surrounding these men. If that isn’t the ultimate commodification of women into practically an object of welfare then I don’t know what is, and it’s just inconceivable that there are people and parts of the world where this is not only accepted but the norm.
I believe that any man that feels like he has a right to a random women’s body, definitely has some deeper rooted issues. A woman who looks beautiful or sexy may want to look that way for herself to feel comfortable in her own skin. It does not mean she wants to go home with someone or that she has to. When I get dressed to go out I never think about what a man is going to think about the way I look. To be honest, I look at what my friends look like and compare myself to that. Most women are the same we dress to try and compete with other women not for the men. It is more normal for women to size up and check out each other before even noticing a guy is staring at her. I think that any man who gets angry over a woman not wanting to go home with him after meeting is delusional and doesn’t really understand women. This is because it takes a lot more than one night for most women to create a strong sexual drive for a man. For most women and some men, it takes an emotional connection along with a physical one.
What are you competing with other women about??
I think it is true that a lot of men regard women as objects that they have a right to. I think this comes from a place of not having women in their lives or a sense of empathy. I could not regard women as objects because I have a sister. There is no way I would want any guy to regard my sister as an object. The internet is a place where a lot of comments about women being objects are projected. Many men on the internet write comments about sexual assault behind the shield of their computer screens. I think having women friends of the same age or younger or a sister would allow men to feel empathy for women. However, the men would have to care about those people in their lives and a lot of times men will hate and still regard their women friends as objects. Women should be allowed to whatever they want without feeling as if they are doing something wrong. I think social media has allowed some women to be able to feel comfortable wearing what they want.
No one should feel entitled to another human being’s body whether you’re a man or woman. So when a man tries to retaliate or take revenge against a woman because of their rejection is unjust. I think respect is important when it comes the relations of men and women. It is important to respect a woman and a man as who they are and try to get to know them before thinking of them as an object. I think there is definitely trends in society where women are sexual objectified (that is not to say that men aren’t). But I think it goes both ways, it is true that women are constantly objectified by society based on the standards of beauty. But there are many examples where women benefit from that sexual objectification. Plenty of female models on Instagram have become famous and yield commercial profits because they show a bit of skin in all their posts. While there is nothing wrong with females wearing provocative clothing or posting provocative pictures online, one can argue that they are benefiting from it because of all the attention and objectification towards their bodies and beauty.
This is not a rare topic for me personally. Reading this, I honestly did not feel extremely surprised at what I read, or about that sense of entitlement that men feel that they have over women’s bodies. The main feeling I received from this was discomfort due to it causing me to look back and think about the times I have caught men staring at me in different public places. I usually do my best to see the other sides point of view in many situations, but in this one, I genuinely cannot find a reason as to why men can find it acceptable to look at a woman and believe that just because they are dressed “provocatively,” that it is for them and if it isn’t, that the female should pay for it. The response of punishing someone, causing any form of pain, or rape should not be a response to potential or actual rejection. I find it horrifying that there are people in this world who respond that way. I have been watched and stared at like a form of prey by men when I am at the gym and when I do not respond in a wanted manner (rolling my eyes, glaring, etc.), I am then still stared at more and feel even more uncomfortable. The idea that those thoughts could be going through those mens minds makes me worried as well as frustrated at the fact that they believe they are entitled to my body and that I should be responding happily to it. I do not respond well to being to what to do, especially when it is in regards to my body, so my response to the men who believe that my body is for them is as large NO. I hope that as time goes on as well as more men and women fight this norm, that this will change.
This is a very interesting topic that I often hear being discussed. Men shouldn’t feel entitled to a women’s attention or how they look is to please them only. Some may think that women are dressing “provocative” just to get attention from guys, but that is not the case. I don’t think that a women being pretty is making men angry, more about how they have confidence within themselves and not having the control over them is making them rather angry. I however do agree that women dress a certain way, rather it be modest or not because they want to but also because of society’s influence on what is “sexy” and what is not. I see this anger coming from insecure with themselves, because a women is not doing anything to the men to make him angry. It has been found to be more common in girls to feel angry and jealous toward someones confidence and that is only because society has told them be in competition at all times and this can mean beauty too. Instead of admiring a women’s beauty, men take it the wrong way with anger and hate because they have no control. Sadly, it’s all about society’s norm because they have seen men in control for so long.
Wow, very intense!
Men hating women because of their beauty has never come to my mind, i could understand a woman being jealous of another woman. I have never stopped to think about a man hating a woman because he could not have her and actually wanting to rape her just to get back at her and feel power over her. I was actually just having a conversation with my sister today about us teaching our daughters to dress in a certain way that wouldn’t draw negative attention that could lead them to something tragic, such as a man touching them or rape. I do understand why some women argue that we have a right to dress in whatever makes us happy and sexy but unfortunately we are still fighting for rights and we need to first start with our young boys, teaching them to have respect for women and keeping their hands to themselves unless a woman gives permission. I dress pretty to please myself, but if i go out, men might think that i did it to catch their attention, i have actually been cursed by a man after i rejected him. This might be what Kimmel talked about when he said that men feel entitled and get angry when they do not get their way.
A very interesting topic! After reading the first two paragraphs I understood why a Man would hate a pretty woman. Men don’t like women showing off. Specially if that Man is not attractive and knows he has zero chance with that woman. Men always want a pretty woman but when they can’t have them, they start hating them all. This can be very worrisome because they can retaliate and end up punishing a pretty girl for their arrogance.
As I read more, I realized that it is not only that, it is also because Men think they are entitled to a woman’s body and therefore, should have her, regardless. No one likes rejection, but some men tend to take it too seriously. This is because they have a big ego and rejection gets them very angry.
A woman is entitled to her own body and no one else. Men need to stop seeing women as sex objects because women have virtues and defects just like they do. Everyone deserves respect and acceptance just the way they are.
The title of this article caught my attention because I was so confused as to why men would hate pretty women. As I kept reading I started to shift my mind from one perspective to another, and just trying to even understand the whole idea of men getting angry at good looking women disgusts me.
I am more convinced of how men truly do think they are entitle to thinking and doing whatever they desire to women without having any consequences. It is honestly so draining to even think about having to prove myself as a women to the world of ignorant men. And what worries me in the upcoming generations of girls, it could either go great and they’ll make bigger things than my generation is doing, or it could go completely down the drain.
I found this article to be interesting because I was not aware of the fact or reasoning behind why men would actually Hate Beautiful Women. I suppose being rejected by any woman would be rather ego blowing by most men but seriously, does the average man really believe they have half a chance with a Beautiful Woman? Why would they think such an absurd thing and more so why would they be put out is beyond my imagination. Most people have an idea of what type of person they have half a chance of getting their attention let alone getting to know on an intimate level. Look around if you don’t think so. How many “beautiful” people do you see out and about with “average”? Usually there is a deeper reason behind beautiful women with Mr. Average like wealth or social status. Even then it’s not an ideal relationship. Personally I know Mr. Handsome is not going to give me the time of day but I still enjoy his letting me admire him from a far. When Mr. Personality comes along and asks to get to know me better, I am more than flattered and find myself having a REAL good time. Let’s leave the beautiful people to themselves. Lets face it, there really aren’t that many of them!
This is a very interesting viewpoint that I hadn’t really looked deep into before. It does make sense though, thinking about the men who have catcalled me and have been angry/called me a bitch if I didn’t acknowledge them. Or on the more extreme part of the spectrum, the Isla Vista shooter about three years ago who wanted revenge for sexual or social rejection. These men feel like women owe them something or that they deserve a woman’s love or sex just because they have feelings for them or find them beautiful. The problem is never women dressing provocatively, but the misogyny and hatred that men internalize.
An important part of the conversation is the way women present themselves, and I think it’s important to note that women who have been raped, were either wearing sexy clothing or even just jeans a t-shirt. And in reality, it does not come down to that at all. We live in a world where we have to think about the way that we dress to keep ourselves safe when a safer society calls for perpetrators of violence against women to be held responsible and punished, as well as raising men to be better. The way a woman dresses should be her choice, and what message are we sending to women that they need to dress modestly to protect themselves? But at the same time, they are pressured to be beautiful? It’s just another double-blind that women get trapped into.
> These men feel like women owe them something or that they deserve a woman’s love or sex just because they have feelings for them or find them beautiful.
Some of them probably feel like that. Others just get rejected over and over, get depressed and start to hate women, themselves and the whole World. Being a pariah, it is natural to get to this kind of attitude.
First off, I am not a man that feels that I’m entitled to “have sex with women that dress sexy”. Actually, considering the present state of affairs, I will intentionally look the other way. That way I know I’m safe. This worlds become a sad place.
It is not surprising that some men react to beautiful women with aggression– much of the idea of masculinity has created an inferiority complex around emotions. Masculinity preaches aggression, dominance, physical power and emotional reticence – not love, compassion or peacefulness. These values are intimately connected to, and manifest in, control and systems of domination – governmental, financial, military and domestic – by which a small number of men secure the natural and economic resources of the planet for themselves, and protect their privilege by any and all means. Any threat to such ideas about oneself serves as an immediate reaction to the masculine– aggression and revenge against what seems to be (in their view) attack on their honor– on their masculinity. In the same way, as mentioned in the post, women have been taught to be beautiful– that beauty is the correct physical standard for them. It is sad to think some men think this way and violence against women is often the result of such instances. The primary concern to address is the pervasive and destructive qualities that manifest themselves in the ideology of masculinity. Such concepts are central to society and in particular, capitalism. However, given the widespread and continuous nature of such identities, there is room to grow from a masculine mindset to a more inclusive and empathic way of thinking and emotional recognition. It is not easy, and for some, they are entirely unaware that they possess such attitudes. But they are also unaware that attitudes negatively impact not only women but themselves and other men around them. Societal masculinity is inherently contradictive of its characteristics; no one fits perfectly into the masculine so there will be areas where men find themselves lacking and vulnerable. Such feelings alone are incompatible with the construct of masculinity- reinforcing the inferiority complex and need for retribution. Men who have grown up or have been influenced by such concepts can overcome this by educating themselves on what cultural and social factors have affected their ideas about their image and others.
Having just discussed women’s clothing in my women’s studies course, I find it very surprising that some men describe themselves as feeling angered by women who are dressed beautifully. I recalled being catcalled while wearing clothes that are used for exercise, clearly not worn to “attract” men. Were these men pleased by my appearance or were they angered by my lack of positive reaction to their catcalls? Further, catcalls themselves are unlikely to lead to any positive interaction; does this indicate that men who catcall at attractive women are assuming the women are unattainable? The idea that men feel entitled to sex, then angry when rebuked, makes sense. It is a logical extension of the objectification of women. In talking about clothing choices with other female classmates, as women we dress ourselves for our own satisfaction, for social acceptability, to attempt to meet beauty standards that have been set by the media, and to impress men. After reading this blog post, the thought enters my mind that I must also dress myself in a way that is attractive but not overly attractive in a way that would anger men. In my opinion, our society needs to take a closer look at how much we judge one another by our appearances.
I can feel the pain of males who are rejected by girls. But don’t get me wrong, I feel this pain not because I have been rejected before but by witnessing the suffering of my roommate who had broken up with his girlfriend a few weeks ago. However, I would have to say that it is pretty childish and selfish to call them a certain thing or to explicitly express a discontent by saying mean things to women. Women, too, have the freedom to choose the males they want to choose and to do what they want with their bodies. Men should not, in any way, feel entitled to what is not theirs in the first place unless, of course, you are a father of a female toddler. The thing that these guys who act out aggressively after being rejected to do are to train how to control their emotions. There are many ways to do this. One of the very useful ways seems to be meditation.
i agree with Kimmel that some men feel entitled to women/s bodies and i have experience this when i go out with my guys friends and they get rejected by girls .they start by calling them names and making false assumption about they way they dress ,the way they behaved and what their life might be look and i find it to be interesting how can a guy build his image about a certain girl ,based on a rejection .it’s very unfortunate how much pressure society puts on women to dress and look in certain way but even then ,they are not saved from being objection be men .it’s refreshing to see that some women standing to this idea .all of women and specialty young girls need to realized that you don’t have to dress provocatively to impress a guy.Even though it might work 90% of the times ,it’s important to think what can guys are attacking to you .I’m not against dressing provocatively-but i feel that one should dress that way because they want it and not because they feel pressure .if i ever have a daughter ,i’ll raise her to believe that no person on this earth is entitled to her body and that people should judge her based on her personality and not based on how much skin or her she shows (beauty comes in all shape)
Thank you for this comment. You will be a great dad!
I found this read very interesting because I come from East Africa and some men are very intimidated by a beautiful woman. Some men believe that a beautiful woman cannot be completely yours because every man wants her for her beauty and this prevents some men from marrying a woman who is too beautiful. While at the same time, you also have other men who prefer a woman who is beautiful so that they can parade her to everyone. According to this men, they prefer to marry an ugly woman because they could control her: tame her but when a woman is too beautiful, they feel powerless and the woman is considered not tamable. Some men also prefer to get married to ugly women and cheat with beautiful women. There are also circumstances where you will find a very beautiful lady in a neighborhood who is constantly abused by her husband and the villagers would wonder why because the woman is very beautiful and in their opinion can find a better man. Although, we also have tribes who believe that a man beating his wife, is being affectionate. If a man does not beat you, he does not love you but when a man beats you, he cares about the relationship. It is a very backward way of thinking because if a man loves you, he should not harm you in any way, he should instead protect you. Personally I also do not think there is ugly women and that beautiful women should be treated worse or better than ugly women because every woman is beautiful regardless. However, I do think that men who are intimidated with women who are supposedly too beautiful have self esteem issues and they take it out on those girls that they believe to be beautiful. I also think if a man is abusive, he will be abusive to any woman in his sight regardless if she is beautiful or ugly in his opinion, he will still abuse her.
Sad. I hope things will change for the better.
This topic is somewhat relatable but I have not been angry because a girl doesn’t notice me. I learned that girls like looking there best for themselves and at times it could be for guys. I do understand that men feel entitled to women’s bodies and looks. The reason why is they want to do as much to get the girl and get there attention. It sometimes works on getting to know them buy some guys fall on the friendzone not only that gets them upset but how much effort they put to get to know the girl. Some men hold anger because of there past experiences. Instead of holding anger why not arrange the mistakes and approach them with confidence rather than just sitting and admiring them. To wrap all this up women should dress how they would like and us men should fix our mistakes and approach them differently.
It is almost insane to think that men would feel such an urge to go out of their ways and react in such an inhumane manner and commit a crime over how a women is dressed. Todays fashion industry focuses on making a women look good and confident in the clothes they are wearing. With that being sad, something that caught my attention was the fact that some men could feel such an urge to force a women into undesirable sex because of what she is wearing. This style of thinking is perverse and irrational especially now with media portraying this unrealistic way of h a women should look like. Women are now put in such stressful state because of all the celebrities influencing the media and making women feel the need to change themselves in order to be more confident. Moreover, the societies expectation of beauty has completely altered and it is understandable for a women to want to dress in a curtain way to feel confident. i find it absurd for anyone to use that as an excuse to rape someone.
The title of this post captured my interest immediately, as I have often experienced men carrying animosity towards women in conversation. If women are dressed in such a way that a man may deem provocative, it can go one of two ways. If she responds to his advances, she would be praised on her appearance. However, if she were to respond negatively, she would be labeled a “tease” and subsequently mocked based on her appearance. The societal expectations of beauty placed on women has set them against a double standard. On top of this, there is a problem of men believing they should have power over women’s bodies. Whether it is the way women dress or women’s reproductive health, there is no place for men to be making these decisions. The long-lasting control that men have had over women in politics in one way in which men have justified their power over women. A modern example is the government, almost entirely run by men, regulating women’s reproductive health. It is this mindset that ultimately leads to the anger and resentment that men may feel toward women.
The fact that this article emphasizes that society wants women to be physically beautiful and appealing is frustrating and disappointing. Although it also suggests that one way to resolve the problem is for everyone to consider men and women to be equal in society, the problem should not even be considered a problem because, so what if men don’t like pretty women? Why should it matter to them what women look and dress like? Shouldn’t women alter their appearance however they please without worrying about societal standards and about how men will think of them? After going through a series of frustrated emotions after reading this article, I remembered that studying women’s rights involves reflecting on society as a whole, men included. Without evaluating reactions of men, we can’t fully understand gender studies. Some men tend to dislike attractive women for various reasons, like a threat to their power. This is something that is currently happening in our society and cannot be changed unless we analyze the current structure of society and educate others on how to treat women better.
Unfortunately what is and what we want to create are two different things.
Psychological research shows that’s the primary source of self-esteem for women is their looks. That’s what is. Not what we are fighting for.
And it’s no wonder that that’s “what is” considering that the society we live in constantly messages the importance of looks to women and girls… and to men, Whether advertisers try to make women and girls feel bad about themselves in order to get them to buy a product or music talks about how much a man loves a woman because she is so beautiful or movies that have the same message…
And it wasn’t my main point, actually. Given how men who hate pretty women can harm them, I’m trying to get men who hate pretty women to understand the double bind women find themselves in given the culture. Girls are taught that their worth comes from their looks, putting them in a double-bind: they are put down and even hated when they try to fit society’s expectations.
This article was written to help men understand what women are doing, and why they shouldn’t hate them — not to tell women how to behave.
Obviously, the best solution would be to worry less about looks and more about our minds and souls, as I have written in other posts like these:
Miss Representation: Girls are Pretty, Boys Are Powerful
Miss Representation: How I Look Is What Matters
The Most Important Thing For a Woman: Be Hot
Scrutinizing My Body Takes All My Time
Grade School Lingerie
Beauty Tricks to Remove Your Power
Beauty Tricks To Remove Your Self-Esteem
You Don’t Have to Give It All Away
I think it is ridiculous that men react with such aggression about a female that is probably unaware of his existence. To think a woman is beautiful is kind – but to want to have revenge on a woman for being beautiful is absurd. The college chaplain that claimed “The way young women dress in the spring constitutes a sexual assault upon every male within eyesight of them” clearly should not be in college because that is the most ignorant sentence I have ever read.
There is no justification to rape culture. The “Men Who Hate Pretty Women” need to learn that there is no scientific proof or religion to support that their mentality is acceptable. As a female, I should not have to fear my everyday life because a man with low confidence and too much testosterone has ideas of raping me because I decided to get dressed up for myself. No woman should have to change anything about her to please an irrelevant male. Yes, women should be respected and treated as equals – not just because they are beautiful and deserve to be treated like queens (which is very true), but because they are humans.
Men who dislike pretty women dislike because they do not get the amount of attention they desire. I believe that men who rape women are egotistical maniacs that did not get the time of day from women. In a patriarchal society men view women for their looks rather than their intellect or humor. Men lack the self control of themselves and allow beauty and glam to fulfill their desires which leads men to turn to savages. Men can be furious over women and their beauty that manipulates them, but that exactly covers why loving someone for who they are on the inside should be valued more than what an individual looks on the outside. Finding someone who enjoys the same things you enjoy releases pressure for both parties. It is a beautiful feeling to have someone that you don’t need to have sex with to have a good time.
And what is a girl to do? If women’s studies have taught me anything it’s that to pursue a truly fulfilling life as a women living in a patriarchal society, you can’t be distracted by the societal norms imprinted on you over your lifetime, you need to find the strength to be yourself and if that happens to be going against the grain by being “unsexy”, don’t be scared to be that. It takes courage to show someone who you are underneath the “make up.” And in the end, you end up with someone who values you for more that your “made-up” self.
It’s interesting to think that men can be infuriated with pretty women because they feel resentful over their loss of self control like a self proclaimed “sucker” when we live in a society that normalizes porn and sexualizes women’s looks. While reading his point of view I noticed how egocentric it sounded. It made me think of that saying “be careful for what you wish for, because you just might get it” but don’t get mad if you can’t handle it, that’s on you! I was speaking to a friend about this man’s point of view and she made an interesting point, if men want to change the status quo and are angry that women have this sexual power over them, making them feel manipulated, then they should hold themselves accountable and take back their power! So what is a guy to do? For Starters, don’t perpetuate this endless cycle of continuing to value women for their good looks. For example, instead of going out with a woman whose legs drive you crazy in a short skirt, choose to go out with a women who can seduce you with her sense of humor or her laugh. Many men find comfort in sharing similar hobbies as their partner, so perhaps, choose a girl to date who is also into classic cars, hunting, sci-fi… this can take the sexual pressure off the relationship because it can give you both neutral ground to stand on together without the sexual tension. And lastly, don’t go out with a girl who does not have anything in common with you, choosing to go out with a woman because she is hot means that you are placing sex as the priority so it really comes back to this question, “do men value themselves more than that?” then ACT like it!!!!
Reading about the intense anger some men feel toward unrequited attraction and desire made me reflect upon my own life and experiences. Having frequented many bars and clubs, I have always dressed in what society would consider “sexy” and have always dressed for my own pleasure. Feeling beautiful does not require attention from the opposite sex, feeling beautiful and sexy is about loving our own bodies and highlighting our physical traits that best reflect our measure of self-love. The majority of women I know apply make-up most arduously, not to the area men will be attracted to, but to an aspect they admire about themselves.Although attracting men can be a facet of dressing and looking sexy, I believe that women primarily dress as a mode of self-expression rather than solely as an attraction mechanism.
Furthermore, at the bars and clubs I have attended, there have definitely been times where men will be over-the-top insistent, to the point where my good humor has worn off and I directly and straightforwardly tell them that I do not want anything from them sexually. In these cases the men tend to get upset and insult me to which I coolly raise an eyebrow and glare. It seems to me that there’s a double standard; men groan and moan about wanting women to be more straightforward and less “teasing” and yet hate outright rejection. It seems that even when receiving unwanted attention, a woman must make every effort to be as kind and gentle as possible toward her aggressor so as to not hurt his delicate ego. Many of my friends have then resorted to the “boyfriend card”. The “boyfriend card” is when you reject a suitor by telling him that you have a boyfriend. This suggests that the only reason you will not date him is because you cannot date him and that if the patriarchal chain your boyfriend has around your neck would slacken even for a minute that then you would eagerly jump into the suitor’s willing arms. After using this move a couple times I stopped simply because I realized that I wasn’t doing society, both men and women, any favor by continuously protecting egos that shouldn’t even exist. Now, when men attempt to court me, I subtly hint that I am not interested and if that isn’t sufficient I will tell them bluntly and without malice that I am simply not interested and that I hope they’ll have better luck with someone else. I think that men and women need to accept rejection and need to learn that human worth is not determined by sex and partnerships but rather by the love one bears for oneself.
Let’s just acknowledge that heterosexual men are essentially defenseless against feeling attracted to the bodily charms of an attractive woman. When a woman choses to dress herself “modestly” (= not too revealing), most men will not feel too nervous or intimidated by her. But since maybe 2 decades it has become more common for women to dress in clothes that are very revealing. It’s not unusual to see young women who wear jeans that essentially reveal all of their curves.
In fact: some of these jeans are tailored in a way that makes their curves look even more attractive than what they would look like if they were just in their “birthday suite” (= naked). So, a woman in very tight jeans can have a stimulating effect of a higher order than just seeing a naked woman somewhere on the beach or in the sauna (not uncommon in Europe).
As men who are susceptible to such stimuli, we can only choose to ignore the stimuli and avoid it, or to be affected by it. Being affected by it could mean that we would like to explore the bodily charms of the woman, who already partially reveals them to us, even more. But since women are humans and not some sex objects, we can of course not just touch and explore a woman according to our liking, but we first must must built an interpersonal relationship.
This is where the actualy problem lies: women who are more attractive tend to be more exclusive and picky in whom they date. Every man is attracted to physically attractive women, but not every man will have the opportunity to personally meet and date one. So attractive women who present their bodily charms basically give off the message: look, I have what all you men want, but if you cannot meet my high expectations, you will not be the one who will have access to it.
It leaves those men, who only get the stimulus, but not the opportunity to react satisfyingly to the stimulus (by successfully approaching the woman who sends out the stimulus), behind with frustration and anger. This frustration and anger is not solely direct towards the women who use their stimuli, but also towards the chosen few of men, who are fortunate to be accepted by these women. So, it’s more related to a social divide, to “lookism” and to status, than to male feelings of entitlement towards women.
What do you think to this hypothesis. Or is it to male-centered and sexist? Would like to hear your responses.
My sense is that there is some resentment that attractive women prefer attractive man. I’m wondering if there is a double standard here where the same guys ignore average women. In parallel fashion average women would be hostile because attractive men aren’t interested in them.
And it’s all based on superficiality. There is so much more to us.
I guess there is always some kind of resentment when one doesn’t get the same opportunities and when one gets outcasted by others based on factors one has no influence over?
Okay, we could just accept being third class citizens and being treated as such by women whom we might find attractive, but who won’t pay us any attention based on the simple fact that we are not members of the “superior caste” who qualify for their companionship in the looks department.
Sure. But I’m hearing a double standard in this.
Ike, I think that you worded it perectly. Very nice writing. It fits my observations and experiences completely.
> I’m wondering if there is a double standard here where the same guys ignore average women
It probably is, I guess it is people’s natural preference of attractive people and a desire to get as attractive partner as possible. Just a another darker side of humans’ personality.
> In parallel fashion average women would be hostile because attractive men aren’t interested in them.
I’m not sure if women get as hostile as men do. I can think of a couple reasons why they might not. One is that pornography and a pornified culture can send the message, subconsciously, that men should have axis to women. That women are always coming onto man. So they get upset when they are rebuffed.
Also, women’s sexuality is much more punished than men’s is, which leaves them more out of touch with desire. I wrote about that in a few different places if you want to read up on that:
Repression Shutting Down Teen Girl’s Sexuality
And to see the related posts at the bottom.
> I’m not sure if women get as hostile as men do.
Due to cultural expectations and maybe other factors women’s aggression is different from men’s. It is usually much more covert and subtle. Moreover, anger and resentment can be hidden but still be there. And of course women can be hostile to the other women that get attention from men they desire. One can simply google stories on how spectacularly attractive women get a cold shoulder from other women because of their looks. I have no doubt that women compete with each other for male’s attention. They just want attention from attractive men, not from those bleak average Joe’s hitting on them while standing in a line at check-out.
Of course there is a “double standard” in playing the victim of “lookism”. Every human being of any sex would like to mate with a partner which is as attractive as possible. The side effect is that unmet expectations lead to frustration, as Ike said.
Some good points:
“Due to cultural expectations and maybe other factors women’s aggression is different from men’s. It is usually much more covert and subtle. ”
“And of course women can be hostile to the other women that get attention from men they desire.”
Yes, powerless people tend to attack each other rather than powerful people.
I think that everyone who feels confident about themselves looks beautiful to the society, both women and men. However, each of us has a different ways of becoming confident and for women most of the times dressing up helps with their self-esteem. Nowadays women have such a pressure from society that it is hard for them to feel confident because of all the beauty standards. Nevertheless, it is a cultural thing; I do dress up myself really often because that’s how I feel comfortable. If you come from a culture where women are supposed to always look good and dress up, you do not even think about impression that you might leave for others because it just becomes your daily life and you don’t even think about it that much. While some culture judges women for dressing “sexy”, other might judge women for wearing sweatpants and t-shirt and in this case what is the right thing to do for women then? And don’t get me wrong, I totally support whatever women chose to wear, because the most important thing is how she feels comfortable. This is one of the reasons why we should’t judge women on how they dress, because cultures are so different.
It is disgusting that some men still think that they are entitled to the female body. I had the biggest eye roll when I read that sentence, that they are entitled to sex too. Also, it blows my mind that some men believe that the way we dress invites them to come sexually harass us. Some of us dress with short dresses, shorts, tank tops, etc. because it makes us feel pretty, it keeps us fresh during the hot weather, or because it is the fashion now a days. I do not wear short dresses to get people attention let a lone have someone come harass me. It is crazy that the men from the survey believe all this. With all this being said, some men should not feel angry or disrespected if we choose to look beautiful, dress beautiful, or dress sexy, we do it for ourselves and not to get attention (or at least some of us don’t) we do it to fee better about ourselves and not to get them angry for going out the way we feel beautiful. I hope that in the future this does not have to be a problem anymore and that the men that believe that they are entitled to the female body realize that we are human and not a piece of meat that they can take advantage of.
I thought this article was interesting because of the double bind that women seem to be in. “Yet most women dress for their own self-esteem, leading to a double-bind when it comes to dressing sexy: damned if you do, damned if you don’t.” In my opinion, I think all of us male or female dress to impress. Men take showers, dress nicely, and try to have high status in society for the sole purpose of attracting women. I think women do the same things but they are a little more oppressed because of the “entitlement” that men perceive upon women’s bodies. Men believe that since they have done a lot to try and get the girl, they should end up getting her. When the article suggests Men are mainly at fault here, I would like to point to society and how the system created this “chase” for women that has men feeling entitled.
Well, not all men hate pretty women. I don’t think that any of us should hate each other. But I do see societal problems that create a negative situation. People unconsciously internalize ideas and one way to overcome them is to become conscious of them.
This topic is very interesting given that I am a girl and some times like to dress pretty or sexy. I guess in my opinion I like to sometimes dress sexy, because honestly it does help your self esteem to get noticed that you look good on that day, rather it was a comment or the way someone just looked at you. Two, I feel like with women there is a lot of competition out there, for instance, am I as pretty as her or I wish I looked like that where women feel the need to look sexy or nice just to help not comparing or looking down on yourself when another pretty women walks by. I can see how some women can be teases and some just wanting to look good for themselves, but I don’t think it is any reason for men to get angry over or even need to be aggressive about it. But I do feel no women should be rude by any means from noticing your beauty unless you are being harassed. Some just dress to impress and I feel like this can go both ways for men and women. Guys like to show off in other ways to show he is cool or get the girls attention.
This article describes that some men see rejection from women as an assault and that they feel powerless because of the rejection. First of all, I feel it’s sad that the only reason for some women to dress up and look pretty is because the society expect that from them. I would rather prefer that the reason some girls were makeup or dress nice is because that does something with their self-esteem and that they feel better with themselves. However, what I want to focus on is that men actually feel threaten by seeing pretty women. I don’t think a lot of women feel powerless or threaten by seeing a handsome man. I know for sure that I don’t feel angry or mad if I see a cute boy, even though I know he might be too cute for me. I believe it sad that it’s only the man that feels angry because he is very aware that he is supposed to be powerful and get his will, but don’t get what he wants. I don’t know if this made any sense, I just think that women sometimes should have higher expectations and maybe requirements to the man, so she ends up with a guy that is as great as here.
Very interesting article!
Michael Kimmels research that you included is quiet disturbing, but also really answered some of my questions on why men rape women. Ive always had this understanding that they did it out of spite but never really why, it is mind blowing that some men feel aggression towards attractive women because they cannot have them, as if women should be their property. You also make a good point by questioning whether men feel pleasure and resentment all at once, this would explain why some men blame women for dressing to “slutty”, therefore they were “asking for it.” Its interesting to think that men actually think that women present themselves as “sexy” to get a mans attention, which in some situations is true, but it is more then yetI agree that we should step out of societies expectations and definition of beauty and expand it as it should be and how beauty truly is.
This is a very interesting topic. I experienced many nights at the bar with my friends, where at least one of my friends leave the bar very upset. The thing is, is that just because they buy a girl drinks or they seem to give in so much time to a specific women, it doesn’t mean you’re entitled to anything. A lot of my friends who get shut down either slut shame the poor lady or they believe that she is a lesbian. If the same women were to say yes and enjoy her company with my friend she is considered easy or sluty. I believe that just because a women dresses a certain wsy doesn’t mean she is open to anything or everything. Men shouldn’t be angry at the fact that a women want to go out and have fun and enjoy their night. I was brought up to respect women and be sensitive to their feelings as cliche as that sounds. However, it as helped me in life whether it is at school or in the work place, having an open mind and sensitivity towards others go a long way.
Men should not feel or think they are entitled to a woman’s body just because they can easily over power them. As woman, we see so much mainstream media of what is expected of us and how we should look and behave ourselves, and when we do start dressing and looking a certain way we can still receive negative commentary from it. This can also go the other way around, there are many attractive men that act in similar way this article describes, the difference is many women would not feel like they have entitlement to a man’s body and they would turn it on themselves thinking they are not attractive enough and even become sad about it. For men, it dwells down to their ego, if they feel like it is being crushed they must find a way to recuperate themselves. Overall, both men and woman should come to the understanding that as individual we own ourselves and if someone is not interested in you it is not because something is wrong with you, it’s because that person has their own interest and finds other things appealing and that’s not to say you won’t feel the same of others as well.
Yes, I can become emotionally disturbed for hours (or days) when I see an attractive woman. I usually become depressed. Sometimes angry. The lonely feeling is unbearable. It has effected me since I was a teen (I am 48 now). I have never been able to turn it off. Help! Seriously. Should I just gouge my eyes out?
No, don’t gouge your eyes out. Maybe this will help:
I Can’t Stop Staring At Other Women
You might also find these posts interesting:
Ogling: Boys Will Be Boys?
Ogling: A Turn-Off
Libido Killer: My Man Ogling Her
Who should care the slightest bit! Once you figure a women out they are not any bit sexy or powerful, rather cruel , jealous , haters that are never any different in being discriminated while entitled. Every last true born one sadly!
I don’t usually approve hateful comments on my blog but I make an exception for this post because some people don’t believe that there are men who hate pretty women.
This article reminds me of “rape myth”, and it’s true about how women should dress is a double-bind, which means dressing too short or tight equals slut, otherwise will be too nun or too dull. However, it’s human nature to pursue and create beautiful things, and then art and music is there, so women who dressing pretty is not for sending some sexual signal, it’s for please their own, and for self-esteem, and it’s healthy to be confident; in contrast, men who think they are able to entitle women as property or sexy objects, even holding more negative thoughts like revenge aren’t mentally healthy. I understand that be rejected hurts and people may get angry about it, but dealing with it by anger or negative attitude does nothing good for both sides, plus, women will feel threaten by someone staring at them, and so I am agree with “And instead of being angry at women who aren’t interested in you, see the beauty of those who are.”
“Maybe she dressed and fixed herself up to be pretty for the staff of her office, customers of the store where she clerks, or to impress particular men she knows, MAYBE NOT YOU, BUB!
“Maybe she is going to meet her boyfriend or a man she wants to have for her boyfriend…or fiancé, or husband? MAYBE NOT YOU, BUB! Get over it.”
That again is a no…women dress to compete for power over make others jealous or envy from others they seek. Its not because its comfortable, underwear and Tee shirts barefoot are comfort dress .
When it is hot outside clothing that shows skin is more comfortable.
Ladies, go stark naked if you like. Just carry a towel to sit on, please. Other people don’t want to sit in your wet spot.
While I don’t think anyone should go naked in public, I don’t think people should be fined or jailed for it either.
Now, mister, if you poke me with your hardon, I just might reflexively kick your ass. It’s an automatic (instinctive?) reaction. Sorry.
When it comes to the safety of our children and teenagers, especially young girls, we need to use our power to protect them from sex crimes by educating them about the dangers and risks provocative behavior and sexy clothes can create. Sex is everywhere in the media thus it is evident that these images shape the fashion and trends, especially among teenagers, accordingly. It would be irresponsible for a parent to not guide their young when it comes to things like appropriate outfits to wear out.
However, adult women having to have to shape the way they choose to express themselves for the sake of protecting themselves from sex crimes or from the finger of blame, is another thing. I believe that a women can be smart, ambitious, nurturing and sexy at the same time while also supportive of other women. Within legal limits, women should be able to wear, behave and express themselves however they please without having to feel responsible in any shape or form of being sexually harassing men and vice versa.
For all of those people who are saying they don’t like the attention of the creepy guys I call bullshit! You love it! If someone compliments you, you say thank you period! If you are human you say thank you when you get a compliment! If they are being creepy you tell them straight up you aint interested if they dont back off call the police, situation fucking handled. No matter 1 out of 4 people struggle from some form of mental illness. This objectification and trying to control women needs to stop! I personally try to give everyone compliments boy or girl because I want to make the world a happier place and I do that by telling people they are awesome. Im not selfish either when I recieve a compliment by not saying thanks! If an ugly guy compliments you why is that better than a hot guy! He can’t control his level of attraction so just say thanks it aint hard to do! Judge a man not by the quality of his looks but, by the quality of his heart!
I think the question is whether it’s a compliment or catcalling. There’s a difference in attitude between the two in how it’s delivered.
>The fact that they think they are entitled to women’s bodies is mind-blowing.
Honestly, I don’t understand the logic “Men get angry at pretty women who are not interested in them, hence they feel empowered and entitled to their bodies”. Why is it that?
Probably, some men feel entitled to women’s bodies, but definitely not all of them.
In my opinion, many others just cannot what they want so badly, and if one cannot get what they want, they get frustrated, it is a natural human reaction. If you want something, it does not imply you are entitled to it.
Moreover, many of them deep in their mind feel that they are not good enough for these women, “that they do not belong here”, which makes them even angrier. How can they be “entitled and empowered”?
In the beginning of this blog I found myself getting extremely angry at the mindset of the men who actually take offense to women looking pretty. I find it disturbing that some men feel the need to retaliate aggressively on beautiful women because they feel inferior. It goes to show the unconscious empowerment men have to possess. The fact that they think they are entitled to women’s bodies is mind-blowing. The perspective these men have on women just isn’t right. Women aren’t objects, how long will it take for men to understand that? I feel education on the matter should help the future generation of men, to be respectful of women.
“And instead of being angry at women who aren’t interested in you, see the beauty of those who are”, is a quote from the article, which I would think that people would actually live by. Men shouldn’t terrorize women for appealing to what society has programmed them to be like. But more importantly “… enjoy beauty in its many forms and see women as people rather than sexy objects.” I believe this message could teach society to be more respectful to women.
And there is kind of a double standard they’re, isn’t there? The guys are so angry at women who are interested in them, Yet these guys probably aren’t interested in less attractive women. Or what is considered attractive by the society anyway.
This article makes me only see the men perspective, and it lacks on showing the girl’s perspective! I’ve known some guys that are like this too! for example, hot looking soccer players, they don’t always go for any girl, they go for the most prettiest girl in the class, and the reason for that is because of the logic”creating pretty babies” but in the end, I say before guys even make a move they should get to know the girl better, and see if they see themselves with them in the future. Meaning do they enjoy keeping each other company or not. As for feeling angry, because they see girl’s attractive side, why not have men look attractive as well! there’s no reason for men to feel bad, and angry about a girl looking beautiful, it is a guy’s fault just as much its the girl’s fault for pushing their looks over the top, because girl’s and guys need to learn to control themselves, in other words have a limit! and respect one another. A guy is awfully wrong for trying to put a limit into girl’s beauty because then that will be controlling the girl, and that shouldn’t be the case. Guys should not be desperate for trying to find love, because the world have a million people, and obviously there’s not only one girl, there are a lot.
My first impression to this article was “really, this is the justification for some men to sexually abuse women? I think the way a woman looks or a dress has nothing to do with what they want or need. A woman simply is who she is; beautiful or “ugly,” sexy or not, sexy clothes or not. Women dress for themselves not for other people or to get attention from men; they dress with sexy clothes because that is how they feel comfortable and sexy. I don’t believe as a woman that all women dress to tease or provoke anger attacks on men or because they are asking to get abuse as quoted “A lot of times a woman knows that she’s looking really good and she’ll use that and flaunt it and it makes me feel like she’s laughing at me and I feel degraded…If I were actually desperate enough to rape somebody it would be from wanting that person.” If we enter this territory I feel it has more to do with the person level of self-steam and maturity as an individual rather than a whole group of people. Men parallel to women do the same thing of dressing sexy or making certain facial gestures or body move to provoke women yet women don’t feel the need to go and find someone they can sexually abuse or feel “degraded” because they got tease or laugh at. I am not going to deny yes it hurts to get rejected but why do people get rejected? I think this should be the question to ask ourselves people get rejected for different things such us; personality, body type, color of eyes, social status, or they simply because they didn’t have the courage to approach the person. We cannot assume that because some men or women look sexy at a bar, she or he doesn’t feel attracted to us or is not willing to share a conversation. If people feel confident enough they will approach that person and talk to them and go beyond that first impression of how they look. No one is entitled to another person body; each individual is entitled to their own body and they can do as they pleased. We as a society need to stop thinking that we are objects and that we need to fit the “norm” TV has set in our minds this type of mentality is leading our society to bigger issues like sexual abuse, control over people and psychological traumas and low self-steam both for men and women.
There’s dressing in a manor that reflects a person and then there dressing in a, I want everyone to know I’m a slut, cloths. A slightly revealing top and short skirt or yoga pants or whatever, is just what there comfortable in. You can’t tell me that those mindless bombshells that you see prancing about vegas with there fishnets and almost outer underwear tight bottoms aren’t trying to lure a man to her hotel room. There’s definitely different degrees of provocation. I personal don’t care if some girl is dressed like she’s trying for miss America all the way to just wearing a pair of denim and some simple light t shirt whom is just a 4-6, I’m hideous and really not what a female would call a man, thus making me understand why I’m just pretty nearly without options and dispatched at any instance of trying to hook up. Bitter, unmotivated, and demoralized as I am it is a reality that was spawned from faulty sperm cells. I get very frustrated when people I work with or just happen to be somehow involved in a conversation and hearing about dates people have had, marriage, talking about kids, and whatever. All of this stems from my unnatural life and experiences but never look at woman with some form of entitlement or dislike. Just have to find alternatives things in life like the next best thing, money or material objects. Wow, in done.
Sent from my iPhone
I noticed reading several of the first comments that there are a lot of people that don’t “get” the point of this article. I know it’s considered polite to respond to someone complimenting you, but we aren’t required to be pleasing to your eyes. It is tiring to be judged on our looks. When you’re going up and saying something about the looks of a complete stranger, you are likely being a creep, or at least, you are inflicting yourself onto that person. You probably wouldn’t go up to a guy you’ve never seen before and start insisting he engage you in conversation. The main point is that we don’t all agree to be objects for you to look at and approve of. It’s almost no different than the guy who thinks it’s okay to tell us to smile. Do you do that to other men? No? Why is it acceptable to do it to us, then? Because we’re pretty objects that have to endure anything you want to inflict on us? I don’t mind a guy I’m interested in saying something nice about the way I look, but some random guy off the street is being creepy. What the hell are we meant to do with that information should we not object to it? What does it accomplish? Those of us with an intellect know that we’re being evaluated on our worthiness when a random guy decides he needs to voice his approval. Until you’re a straight guy that goes up to random other men on the street and compliment him on his sturdy buns or impressive pectorals, then shut up about us.
How do u stop receiving emails from this site?
I can’t change anything for you.
If you only receive emails on this post you probably marked a box that said you wanted to get emails for this post. So go back to the post and reverse the request.
Time and time again, I hear that women are to be held accountable for men’s thoughts, feelings, and actions, all because of what they wear. And the predatory male gaze is often dismissed with a simple “boys will be boys”. For example, in high school, girls are pulled out of class and publicly humiliated for not following sexist dress codes. I’m disgusted most by how often male teachers become upset with young girls over their outfits, rather than female teachers. Reading this article makes me wonder: are they really so mad because the girls are breaking a school rule? Or is their aggression a result of more personal reasons?
Good point! I’m guessing personal reasons — within the setting of a misogynist culture — are much more important.
Degrading you by BEING the sex object?
I found this artical by mistake looking up something else but I must add my two cents. I as a guy know what acceptable behavior is under any circumstance involving a lady and her beauty. I know for a fact that due to my outward appearance it takes no less than a brief glance at me to feel insecure or possibly threatened by my hideousness, I don’t blame girls for that. I blame a poor fate, genes, and things well out of my power. not once in my life can I understand why another guy feels the need to want to rape or show revenge for being treated exactly the way the less attractive girl would feel in her shoes with a handsome guy. I’m not saying that it doesn’t hurt to feel that way, I truly feel isolated and numb over this reality. That doesn’t justify violence. If your an attractive guy and you go after every hot girl you see while drooling and expect them to just caress you in there arms and fuck you and get rejected and feel anger because you truly believe your appearance is a get any girl you want free card then all I got to say is, move on!!! Looks are 90% of the battle in my opinion so what do you have to worry. Just be yourself and I’m sure you will get what you want anytime. If your ugly, yes this is definable, good luck. This is where you must understand what the definition of standards means and how it implies to your chances with whatever girl you encounter. I know my response was kinda all over the place but typing this on my iPhone takes additional concentration just to not misspell words.
Studies have found that the longer someone knows you, the more likely they are to see you as more attractive. And self-confidence helps a lot* — which can lag if you think you aren’t attractive. People do tend to marry people who have a similar level of attractiveness.
On the positive side I will have to say that some of the happiest couples I know are couples that most people would call unattractive, even very attractive. If we see what’s inside and not get hung up on looks, it can make an amazing difference.
*Believe You’re Beautiful – Others Will, Too
I don’t completely disagree with your opinion, but from personal experience I know what it’s like to want to be with someone and know that isn’t optional. I’m not going to bend over backwards and dedicate every moment of my time to try and compensate for the most pivotal feature in modern culture, looks. I guess there’s always getting lucky. Living in the real world is where I live, not in some sugarcoated fairytale world. I cannot compose myself in rants. Dammit lol.
Ok. Just trying to help u feel better. Sorry if it didn’t help.
I get that, just ranting haha. Thanks for the input.
Interestingly this feeling is similar to the ones that often have single people towards happy couples: http://thoughtcatalog.com/charlotte-green/2013/01/dear-happy-couples-i-hate-you/
Both may be caused by jealousy.
Interesting. I’ll have to explore that some more.
I would think that men would want and like to see women in the street dressed up and flaunting their beauty. As a women myself i do dress up once in a while and i do notice men looking in my direction but never did i think it would make them insecure or have any anger toward women if they saw them looking nice. I feel women dress for their own self-esteem mot so much to impress a man maybe only if she is going on a date. Does this mean men get angry when they first go on a date with a women because usually a women wants to dress her best when going out with a man for the first time?
First, it’s not all men. Second, if you are going on a date with him it is a completely different situation. The men described here are angry with women they can’t have. In the case you’re describing the man may or may not be able to get the girl he is with, sexually. And all lot of the men wouldn’t want to have sex with the woman right away if she didn’t want to (well he might want to but he wouldn’t be angry with her). Only a man who is a rapist would be on a date with a woman and then be angry and hateful toward her when he couldn’t have sex. Rapists are more likely than other men to believe in gender inequality. So you will be safer with a man who supports equality between women and men.
Women are held to such a high standard that even at that high standard, they are to blame when they get raped. Women dress the way society wants them to dress, but i have noticed that lately women are dressing in whatever makes them feel beautiful. Feeling beautiful could be wearing sexy outfits, or shorts and a tshirt. Wearing making up and dressed very elegantly. Women, mainly, do not dress to impress and degrade men anymore. They dress to feel beautiful and to be seen for who they are, not as some sex object. It is only in the men’s minds that they think women are trying to tease them and make them enraged in wanting them. Men have no right over a woman’s body, and women don’t have a right to man’s body either. It is because men think that women that are beautiful are just playing with them, that they hate them. If men didn’t think like that or thought of them as their equals, they wouldn’t have that judgment. None of it is for the men, all of it is for themselves.
Yes. These men need to realize that they are the women’s equals. (Even if the women might be better looking by societal standards.)
I agree with this post and your commentary about it. I am also shocked that there are men who believe it’s a torture when they see women dressed “sexy” or appealing. Instead of men feeling this kind of way, they should feel and admire the beauty of women in a respectful manner. This argument can go both ways, but I have not yet heard from females that they feel tortured when they see a male without a shirt, for example. Men, especially the men who feel threatened by women need to understand that there are women in this world that dress for themselves. There are women who love to dress up and feel pretty, sexy, show skin because they want to feel powerful themselves. Male who “hate” women for this should find a solution to their feelings about this every time that they see a sexy woman on the street. If a guy is free to dress and be how they please, then a woman should have those same rights too.
> I am also shocked that there are men who believe it’s a torture when they see women dressed “sexy” or appealing.
It is not a “belief”, it is just a feeling, that appears (or doesn’t) in one’s head. It is one of those “bad” feelings that may come up, but you realize it is terrible. It is like feeling jealousy or envy, or other unjustified hatred towards someone. You realize it is an awful emotion, but you have it, so you have to somehow control it. But you cannot just remove it by a conscious effort.
There are men who do believe this, but even among some of the men who believe in equality and dont believe this awful thing, they do feel some anger when they se an attractive women.
Me for example, i get angry because i remember im shy and i dont know how to flirt, or how to produce attraction on women, but i know is not the women fault but rather mine so i get angry at myself, this is still unhealthy and needs resolution but at least i dont direct it toinnocent women
>There are men who do believe this
Yeah, you’re right, everybody is different.
> Me for example, i get angry because i remember im shy and i dont know how to flirt, or how to produce attraction on women, but i know is not the women fault but rather mine so i get angry at myself, this is still unhealthy and needs resolution but at least i dont direct it toinnocent women
I feel your pain.
This topic could be perceived different ways. Being a woman, I have never tried to tease a man by dressing beautifully. In fact they only reason that I dress up and wear makeup is because other women judge me. It has nothing to do with a man, but everything to do with the women. Society tells women to look beautiful and dress to impress to be successful. With the talk shows that degrade women on their clothes or weight or what they are eating, women are considered objects of ridicule. So women do what is required of them to keep their self-esteem up. There is not a thought in a woman’s mine that they will dress this way to upset a man. To be honest any man that believes this is making up things in his mind that are starting to feel real to them. Now some women can go too far for the attention, but that is not realistic in a normal setting. It would be nice if things were just easier like when we were all in elementary school. It didn’t matter if you were a boy or girl, you all played together and had fun. Everyone was equal and didn’t care about being pretty.
Wow, reading just the first few paragraphs of this post made me so mad! You have to be kidding me that women dressed “provocatively” could in any way be equated to sexual assault. These days, provocative dress is anything and everything, from a 10 year old in leggings to a woman in a tank top.
Furthermore, I’m sick of men thinking that women dress for them. While some of women may, certainly the majority of women dress in what we feel comfortable or good about ourselves in. If we really were dressing to tantalize and seduce men, we’d be walking around in high heels and lingerie all the time.
I think there are two ways females dress: for men or for other women. Often times, dressing for men is for a specific event like a date. All other times, it seems most women dress for other women. Other women are the ones who notice the details of our clothes and are most likely to compliment or judge based on what they see. I suppose this silent competition between women and how they dress is due to internalization of our androcentric society and women being taught that they have to secure the right man and see other women as threats.
On why men seem to be so angry about how women dress, I think it’s because men are just used to seeing women as objects. With an object, you get what you desire, whenever you want. And that’s what men are taught to expect from women. What they’re missing though is that women are their own people, with agency and autonomy. You are not entitled to a woman just because you desire her, just like you’re not entitled to the body of any one else!
This is an interesting topic. The quote starting the article was intense and disturbing. I did not think about guys having that reaction to a beautiful woman, but after reading this article I was reminded of how common this is. The random guys hitting on women by saying/acting like the woman is so sexy it’s killing them while getting too close for comfort. I’ve also spoken to guys who were so lustful for and in “love” with a woman their mannerisms began to get pretty aggressive in regards to how much they wanted the woman. It makes me think of the fine line some people have between passion and anger. I also found it fascinating that some men in the patriarchal society we live in give women the power described in this article. They play the powerless victim to the powerful woman then of course want to retaliate and take the power back.
When I first read this post it made me really angry. It’s astounding how many men feel they are entitled to women’s bodies. It makes me feel really violated just to know that so many men think that way. Like the post states, it is a complete double bind. Women are pretty much required to be attractive by society to be considered worthy, yet apparently looking attractive angers men and makes them feel disrespected. It’s kind of ridiculous. And it’s also really scary to read how simply looking attractive enrages men to the point of wanting to rape a woman. I know that men rape women to feel power over them, but I didn’t think it was a form of revenge for the act of simply looking sexy or beautiful. I suppose it makes sense though, since it invokes a feeling of inadequacy, which must be compensated for, apparently by rape. After reading the post a second time it made me more sad than angry, because it feels like there is no way to win as a woman, and it’s just a reminder of how unsafe men can be. It’s unfortunate we’re not allowed to look beautiful without worrying what reaction we will receive from men.
Very Interesting post!
That some men interpret seeing sexy women as torturous, a “tease they can never enjoy,” or that they feel degraded, is truly shocking. I thought that there has always been an universal notion that sexy women are more than welcome — society more so dictates that through various avenues. I think this should be very alarming, because this “single brush” is once again used to paint women as mere sexy objects. This is a struggle of power, where men act upon the wrong notion that they should have power over every woman. As this post had already pointed out, men should be more “concerned” with women that are interested in them. Every individual will have a different definition and liking of beauty, and so we should enjoy that, rather than solely obsess over physical attributes — intelligence, character, compassion, etc are all attributes that can make a person “sexy!” The true beauty consists of enjoying human beings for all their differences and unique attributes — and this can only happen if we stop objectifying women and pay them their respects as people.
Thanks for bringing your perspective to this post.
I like to stay home friday and saturday nights and play computer. I prefer to go out on Mondays or thursdays because that’s when you encounter the fewest women all slutted up and “sexy”. It’s annoying and gross looking at all these “hot chicks”. I try to avoid them. If a place has lots of “hot babes” I avoid it and prefer to go somewhere I can just chill and not have ass crack in my face. If I wave my dick at some random chick, I’m victimizing her but if she sticks her ass in my face, I’m victimizing her again by LOOKING. These double standards just turn me off to women and it’s why I try to avoid them. If I walked around naked I’d be a creep because women could see it. If they walk around naked I’m a creep because I can see them. Double standard? Yeah. Women are just disgusting and gross. Best avoided.
These are double standards that benefit no one. Best to do away with them, I say.
Btw, I don’t normally approve comments that are intended to be hurtful. But I make an exception on this post since a lot of people don’t believe that men actually feel this way.
You don’t have to associate good looks with sex only. Do not think that women look good just for that purpose alone. Sometimes women look good for other reasons without an attempt to attract a male in order to have sex with him. They might just look good for the sake of looking good because it makes them feel good. You can use good looks to influence people’s opinion and for the sole purpose of eliciting appreciation of your good looks. If some men still interpret this as your attempt to use your good looks for mating only irregardless of your real intent for looking good, and try to come on to you, simply do not say anything, and such men should fall off you.
This post makes a lot of sense to me! I think because many of my male friends often talk about this too. They feel like girls are just teasing them and it frustrates them because they “feel entitled to a woman’s body.” But when I try to explain to them exactly what this post says, that women often times dress for their own self esteem, they don’t believe it. Like in the post, some guys become aggressive and “desperate enough to rape somebody it would be from wanting that person”, I have had a few male friends that have said this themselves.
As a girl, it was little scary to hear, but they tried to explain it in the nicest way possible. Though I still think it wasn’t too comforting.
I find this post very interesting but absolutely does not surprise me. I am very aware that some men feel this type of way towards “pretty women”. Honestly I think there is someone out there for everyone. Some females think that the way of finding that certain someone feel the need to dress down or dress up. Men feel that women do everything in there power to impress them which may be the case in some females thoughts. Women do things to make themselves feel better and boost up their confidence. Men sometimes need to realize they are not a women’s priority to boost their confidence and need to not lower their ego. Of coarse men will lock eyes with an attractive woman and if they feel that they aren’t getting the equal amount of attention they will get angry for no reason and run to a girl with no self respect. Men always wonder why they never can get a girl thats pretty, respectful and with morals when they don’t give themselves the same amount of respect.
Interesting post! I hadn’t known that man would feel this way when they see beautiful women. sometimes women dress sexy and look beautiful because they want get attention from men, respect from people (like when we go to a mall, the shop assistant may treat you nicer if you look good), and they just want to wear whatever they feel like to wear. Men get angry of beautiful women could be a sign of low confidence, if they have time to get angry of a beautiful women that they don’t even know, I think they have to make themselves a better person. I believe not all the beautiful women are looking for a same level good looking guys, sometimes, how is guy outside looks like is the last thing we care about, women are not that shallow and man! get some confidence.
“If I were actually desperate enough to rape somebody it would be from wanting that person…”, that is a very scary thing to read and can also be very intimidating for women who aren’t assertive/aggressive when the men starts taunting them after the women rejects/ignore their cat calls and flirts. I would definitely advise all women to carry pepper spray just to be safe because you don’t know how far the man’s “hate” will go and take action on it. In the first place, I don’t know why the men believe that they are entitled to woman’s because they’re not. They basically are objectifying her body and she not a human being anymore just a toy to appease them. Anyone’s body belongs to themselves and themselves only, no one has greater power over the other. Especially for women, since we have more pressure from a high standard outside force where our bodies seems to be just there for us to groom and make pretty because apparently a women’s worth is her beauty as you mention. If the women dressed up it could be many other reasons, but for sure it’s not to “drive a man crazy” in a sense. How she feels and wants to dress up like is and should be for her own choosing.
This thoroughly surprised me and scared me. How many men feel this way? As if passing a man on a street weren’t scary enough… It is not my job as a woman to make men feel happy or comfortable in any way, let alone with how I choose to dress. It’s amazing that some men could get angry at women for dressing and looking beautiful. I know this is (hopefully) a very very small percentage of men that feel this way, but it is still shocking.
I think any man that feels that way about
Sexy women is just a sick person in the head. And I can only feel sorry for them! They are rapest bottom line
I’ve been in plenty of situations where men demanded attention from me simply because of how I portrayed myself in my clothes. When I obviously didn’t pay attention to them they lashed out at me. I was called terrible names which honestly I was expecting because that’s what always happens to me. I’ve been lucky no man has ever tried to hurt me physically but I know other women aren’t as lucky as me. It infuriates me that men think women mock them by dressing up when, women are always expected to look good. Like men make fun of women who don’t wear make-up or women who aren’t feminine enough for society’s standards. What do they expect us to do?
It’s quite a double blind, isn’t it? Damned if you do. Damned if you don’t.
Not all women who are abused try to be beautiful or sexy – some of them are just being themselves. You should make changes to the post to reflect that.
I wasn’t going to approve this because it has nothing to do the post. See comment policy: https://broadblogs.com/comment-policy/
And then I thought, what the heck.
Note: this has nothing to do with the post.
I would definitely like to agree that this feeling of frustration may have happened to the majority of guy that have ever felt some different type of way right after seeing am attractive women and agreeing to themselves that they she wouldn’t feel the same. It really is surprising to notice how ones personal emotions can change there entire perception of someone and entitle themselves to judge right after. Similar to when there’s a new person in high school and their reputation is usually initially going to be based off another persons opinon without having the opportunity to express themselves.This being said, I believe the practice of emphasizing self love can help everybody with regards to seeing everyone as normal human beings and avoid any sort of judgment whatsoever. Unless your sharing sincere kind words. Because that in society for the most part, is ok .
Thanks for sharing your experience.
The fact that men feel like they are entitled to women’s bodies is ridiculous because they one people to have any say or entitlement to a women’s body is that women herself. If men feel hatred towards pretty women than they are just bitter because those women do not want anything to do with them and knowing that they do not have any power towards those women upsets them. It is very odd that a women who is dressed nice and is pretty causes a reaction so negative because we have always heard that men love seeing a pretty women dressed in nice or sexy clothing. In our society, having a pretty face is seen as a positive because people treat them in a more kind matter and are often given special treatment and this shows that they are power. Having this power would result in men feeling angry that the opposite sex-who is seen as less-has more power and can get away with more. But since the beginning of time, men are got away with almost everything and most of it being awful things.
I think the only reason why men really hate on pretty women would maybe be because they can not get one of those so called pretty girls. They might just be angry at the fact that they are not with the girl or the women that they like.
It had never even crossed my mind that men felt enraged by pretty women because they feel rejected. But it actually makes sense, especially with slut-shaming becoming so common. I think that we are taught from a very young age that aggression is a key part in showing interest in a potential romantic partner. In school, I remember being taunted by boys in my class, and when telling my parents that it made me uncomfortable, they responded with ‘don’t worry, that must mean he likes you! boys will be boys!’ Boys grow up learning that it’s acceptable to be aggressive with girls, and girls learn that this actually means they’re interested romantically. I think that growing up with that mentality, it can manifest into something more serious – where men actually slut-shame, and rape women because they feel they need to have power. They feel that women’s beauty is a slap in the face and teasing to all men, since men feel that they’ll never have a chance with a sexy woman. Since women have so much of an impact over male sexuality, men feel that they are entitled to retaliate by asserting their own control. In reality, it is up to the individual to control their thoughts and actions, and no one is responsible for how they feel other than themselves. Men also need to learn that sexuality is not synonymous with power. It is also important to understand that if a woman chooses to dress provocatively, it isn’t about pleasing men. I think that men get a lot of privilege in society and can have a hard time understanding when something doesn’t actually revolve around them for once.
I always understood that one of the reason guys rape is because of power. They want the power over the women and they will do whatever they please in order to receive it. I never realized another aspect to all this though. Men think they are entitled to our bodies? Not only did the whole power idea disgust me but the whole entitlement theory disgusts me even more. How could someone believe they are entitled to something that is so sacred and personal?! I know how, it’s because of the way they were influenced by society. Growing up they were probably taught the gender roles and with those roles men have the power and control over women. A perfect example could be marriage, women take the man’s last name. I think this makes it out that these men are literally entitled to them because they “own” them. It makes sense that these beliefs can lead to that type of thinking. The way men perceive the woman body is obviously a huge factor too. Since women are sexually objectified on the daily, we are mostly seen as pleasure for the men. This is why people always claim the women to be at fault when it comes to rape, the most annoying phrase is when people say “She was probably asking for it, did you see what she was wearing?”. The problem is not what the woman was wearing, it was because of the man! I don’t know when people will realize that we need to stop restricting women from expressing themselves and start teaching men a little something about respect.
Most excellent points. We live in a sick society in the ways you describe, so it’s no surprise that people’s ideas come to reflect the society, as they unconsciously internalize them (Meaning society gets in our heads).
This post was very interesting to read. When it came to rape, I always knew that the reasons behind it were solely because the men were hungry for power. That thought has always disturbed me so much and it shocks me that some people could be so selfish. I know entitlement correlates to power but I never thought of that aspect. It’s crazy to think that these men believe they own and are entitled to any woman’s body just because it’s a woman’s body. It makes sense that there are men that think in this way because of the fact that women are constantly sexually objectified. This causes these men to grow up thinking of our bodies in this sense, which is really disturbing. As a woman myself, it’s very frustrating because it limits the way we can express ourselves. I am not saying I want to go out wearing nothing but even just shorts can cause a man to go all crazy and that is really unfair to us. The worst thing ever is when women get blamed for rape, I cannot stress on the amount of times I have heard people say “well she asked for it, did you see what she was wearing?”. This also causes us to have stricter dress codes in school. Maybe people should start realizing that they need to teach these boys morals and respect towards women. That is really the only way to prevent rape and aggression and I believe this post claims the same argument.
The sense of entitlement then men have towards a woman’s body is ridiculous to me. To consider a woman dressing in a sexy way that appeals to a man is also ridiculous to me. Like we read in this entry, we are entitled to our bodies first. We are in no way obligated to share our bodies with anyone we don’t want to, or anyone at all, for that matter. Looking at this in a slightly different way, what would men think if women no longer dressed “sexy”? What if women start covering up and become increasingly modest? Then you’re potentially deemed prude, and un-sexy for that matter in the eyes of men. Regardless of the way a woman wants to dress for herself, there will be men that have a negative opinion of them either way; for the tease of something they want and can’t have or for the lack of “eye candy” you give them.
When I first read this article I tried to interpret it from the point of view of understanding and rationalizing this anger that is referenced in this posting. I was left frustrated and at a lack for words. The unjustifiable anger and the externalizing of the blame for the painful feeling are basically just the actions of an emotional infant. Its a hard thing to really understand.
On an individual basis it seems easy to explain this away as an single persons failure to possess self-control and emotional maturity. I think that as a group however, its a sign of the fact that men haven’t had to develop a healthy emotional response to these feelings because its been much easier to force women to dress and act differently. I believe sometimes it is clearly the path of least resistance to attempt to control others through force rather than yourself through knowledge and understanding.
Theres also a lot of belief in men filling the role of a person who is logically in control of his emotions and I think that belief sometimes comes with a denial of the truth, which is that we aren’t always in control of our emotions. You don’t always get to choose who to be attracted to and why. Such a lack of control isn’t something to be angry and resentful about but instead should be understood as a commonality among many people and many things. Your own personal appreciation of beauty should really not be a burden on your emotional state. It should be something you accept as your own and take responsibility for and not something you disown and externalize.
What you say makes a lot of sense. Thanks for your thoughts.
very interesting blog! i agree that some of the clothing that women choose to wear does with hold some intention to provoke another persons attention mainly to appreciate the feeling of being noticed. However, holding the other person at fault for sharing his/ or hers appreciation toward the obvious is still not fair as the women must be aware that although she does completely reserve the right to wear what she wants whenever she wants, it is common for someone to misinterpret a women actual intentions of her outfit with the idea that the other person wants the women to believe. thus, contributing to the vairity of diferent percepetions that we all withhold as individual human beings
Well, there is no reason for hate. And one can notice without being hurtful and rude.
I kind of have two different opinions on this topic. First being that women deserve the right to dress sexy because that’s how society has forced them to dress to make them feel as if they have self worth. I appreciate the effort women give towards how they want others to see them. On the other hand, it is a little bit unfair when a woman dresses provocatively to get others attention, and just so happens to grab the attention of a man. Because of the way that woman is dressed, the man is just forced to go up and attempt to wo her and try to get in her pant because he can’t help it. Then, in the end, she denies him because she feels as if he is way too aggressive, and the man is upset because he thought that the woman was dressed that specific way to get his attention, making him feel dooped and angry.
I guess it can be tough being a guy. And yet I do know some guys who don’t feel as compelled as you describe. Maybe it varies from guy to guy.
I like this article. I think it is interesting how some men actually think that they are entitled to women’s bodies or whole being. In my opinion, we should teach our young boys to respect women and not tell our young girls that they cannot wear certain clothes because it can/will provoke boys. I agree with you where you said that most women who dress nice or put makeup on, do it for themselves and not for anyone else. I find it so funny when people ask me “who are you trying to look good for?” I just simply say, “myself.” Because that is the truth, I do not need to impress anyone other than myself.
It is crazy to me that a guy gets angry when seeing a pretty girl. Usually, it is a girl that gets so mad at a pretty girl for just existing and being pretty. The way you put it as guys see women’s body as theirs is even more crazy for me. Just because a beautiful happens to be in the building does not mean you can call dibs. That’s not how life works. As a woman, I love to dress up and do my makeup. It’s a time where I can pamper myself and to most importantly feel pretty. I get all dolled up for me and half the time it’s also for other girls because that’s how you can a. make a friend or b. get really sincere compliments. Especially if my life is going terribly wrong and one day I decided to really focus on my makeup or hair or outfit and a girl says something nice, best believe that makes my whole day turnaround. It’s the fact that they don’t expect anything back (besides thank you or a compliment to them) and they might actually mean it (you never know with some girls aka a Regina George). The ideas you added at the end really sum up what guys should really be thinking. Fellas, don’t get mad because a pretty girl didn’t look at you or your ego feels a little broken. Women are human beings and we/they are entitled to their body, minds, and thoughts. If you really want to get at them try actually being a decent human being and get to actually know them, not just their bodies. Who knows, if your lucky enough you might actually get both (with her consent of course).
This is all a little surprising to me lol. I‘ve certainly been distracted by a cute girl before, and at times maybe a little upset I wasn’t noticed. But being angry because she didn’t notice you and wanting revenge? Seems like a little bit much. As a man I’ve easily come to terms with not all girls are going to be interested in you, that just life. No need to be seeking revenge on anybody just because you think you deserve it. As for this idea that women are just flaunting their beauty as they laugh is also ridiculous. Yes I agree at times I would think a women would have more or longer cloths on, but hey that’s their choice. I don’t think they’re purposely trying to make fun of the guys they aren’t interested in. They are just being themselves and dressing how they want to dress.
It honestly terrifies me how entitled men feel to a woman’s body. The idea of men hating pretty women because they can’t have them is similar to a toddler having a temper tantrum because they can’t have ice cream for dinner. Men don’t realize the effect of turning a woman into a sex object until it happens to them. I grew up with all brothers, both of which were bar tenders in San Francisco through college. They were astonished with how men came on to them, they mentioned how the men coming on to them were aggressive, and wouldn’t budge. Even after saying they were straight, would not stop. And I just laughed and explained that’s what it’s like being a woman. Entitlement is a dangerous thing and the idea of provoking rape is completely made from society.
I’m not sure why why man would lose his cool over an attractive woman. But tbh I don’t find most women to be very attractive. Maybe every 2 or 3 out of 10, and most of them are really dressed up a lot, and they dye their hair and wear a lot of makeup. A lot of women I see are really overweight, and some of them have weird bodies. Like the ones that have the rolls hanging over their pants while their butts are smaller and flatter. African and Latina women have the nicest curvy bodies but are not always very attractive in the face, where I think white women have the upper hand. I guess it’s in the eye of the beholder, but I couldn’t see losing your cool just because an attractive woman is nearby.
Although I agree with you that there is obviously a double standard when it comes to women’s clothing, I do think you left out a crucial point. While you may claim that women only dress sexy because society tells them to, I think there is another aspect. A woman who dresses attractively will get more attention from men, be it positive or, as we have recently learned, negative, the attention is there. In turn, a woman who gets more attention from men, feels more powerful, desirable, and sexy. Since society puts so much value in these aspects, dressing attractively becomes a desirable task. I know that as a single female, when I dress sexier at the bars and I notice guys noticing me, I feel attractive, which I like. Simple logic then states that I will desire to look attractive, because I desire to be seen as beautiful. I may not even like what I’m wearing, it could be completely against current fashion trends, but if I can have this outfit justified with approval, I will want to wear it more. (This could be justified from women complimenting you as well). Although I am phrasing this from my own personal perspective, I think it does extend to other women as well. In conclusion, we have entered a particularly repetitive cycle.
But it’s still about her, right? Her feeling good about herself. Not for his benefit.
But you’re right. Identities are socially constructed — now others see us affect how we see ourselves. Many others opinions seem objective vs our solitary, subjective” thoughts.
This article was definitely an eye opening one for me. I have never in the past heard that men feel they are tortured by women who dress provocatively. This sparks the desire to have these women that these men could probably not have.
I think a mixed message is being received by men when they see someone who is dressed provocatively. On the flip side, the woman could simply be following a trend, such as the cut off shorts or mid-riffs.
It’s important to realize that dressing up, putting on make-up, perfume, fixing hair, are all part of a style, a preference on how you’d like to dress on a particular day. I’m speaking for myself of course, but I have never been the type to show off too much skin. I always try to leave some for the imagination; however, I do make an effort to make sure that what I’m wearing is appropriate. For instance, going to the office, I will wear nice slacks, and a nice blouse, with low-heels. Going to the Warriors game, I’ll probably wear cut-off jeans with a slim-fitting Warriors shirt. On a date with my husband, I’ll wear something black, with a little skin showing, perhaps, a skirt, sleeveless top, and red lipstick.
I like to dress for myself and for my husband and that’s it. I thank my parents for raising a confident child who is always appreciate what God has given me. I’m not very tall, only 5’2′ about 113 lbs and I can say I’m confident with myself inside and out. Not everyone has the same view of themselves, so they feel like they have to dress a certain way to be accepted.
Some women people feel they can only be noticed when they show a little skin to attract attention. I’m the opposite, I don’t like to be checked out by men because I’m showing too much skin.
I just hope for those men who think that women dress for them, think again, because we’re doing it for ourselves. 🙂
This post reminds me of a famous saying by fashion designer Betsey Johnson, “Girls do not dress for boys. They dress for themselves and, of course, each other. If girls dressed for boys they’d just walk around naked at all times.” This quote relates to this post by saying it is ridiculous for a man to think a woman is dressing for him. I personally feel think I do dress for myself to feel confident and that may perhaps be while I am with men but not directly for them. Or I dress in consideration of other women either in a competitive or communal mindset (girlfriends love to match). This post also relates the to the traditional gender view of women to be temptresses. Men who hate pretty women are threatened by their sexuality and feel that to be important/superior they must “control” pretty women. It is unfortunate that this is a continued traditional view and creates a lot of trauma in the world manifested through sexual assault.
I found this article shocking and was never aware of how some men viewed an attractive woman. I was unaware that some men are actually threatened when they are in the presence of an attractive woman. The explanation of feeling degraded by a woman’s beauty is something that caught me off guard because I always believed that men appreciated a good- looking woman. The aggression that is created by men who feel threatened by an attractive woman gives me further insight to the prevailing rape culture we are experiencing. The fact that rape has been justified because of specific clothes a woman wears is mortifying and hard to grasp. In my opinion, there is no excuse for rape and it is NEVER the woman’s fault. Mutual consent has not been understood for many men who decide that raping women is the best option. In regards to dressing for men’s pleasure, this is not a fact. In most cases, women dress to make themselves look beautiful and feel pretty. In my opinion, I dress to impress myself and a man’s opinion of my appearance is disregarded. In addition, the fact that many men feel that they are entitled to women’s bodies is a scary thought because women are not allowed to have further control of themselves.
This seems to be quite a common theme in America, men believing they are entitled to affection and love as part of the American dream. In 2014 a young man shot and killed six people and injured 13 and had previously posted that pretty girls not dating him were the cause of his anger. After this there were quite a few young men on twitter who were saying things like how selfish women were to cause this, it could’ve been avoided if one of those girls had just slept with him.
This seems to have an underlying feeling of women being property. Example; If you work hard at school you will obtain a degree and a good paying job and a woman. This is a false equivalency – women are not things to be obtained. No man or woman is entitled to love other than love of themselves.
Also men feeling that their violent actions towards pretty woman were “retaliation” are making the narcissistic notion that women’s actions revolve around them.
Good points, all.
I wrote a post last year talking about how patriarchy — and not feminism — partly lies behind Roger’s problem (in addition to his having major issues.
Elliott Roger Blames Women For Patriarchy’s Problems
I think men that hate pretty women because they are not the object of their attention are obviously assholes. No woman is in debt towards men and in muslim countries there are men who destroy young girls faces with acid to revenge for not receiving their preference, as if women were obliged to reward any guy’s attention with sex or by loving him just because he wants her so, and they are not using provocative clothes at all. On the other hand there are also women who resent men that do not pay them attention enough and they can become vindicative…The story of St John the Baptist that was beheaded under Salome’s wish and influence because he was not interested in her… This is a human issue, it is about power and ego. This is about sick and dangerous people!!!
I think it’s really scary how (most, maybe?) men truly believed that they are entitled to a woman’s body. In fact, I have personally noticed that the idea young men nowadays mostly tend to have is just overall confusing: a pretty girl is only worth it if they pay attention to them, but they also believe that women who pay “too much” attention to guys are sluts? But if a girl doesn’t pay attention to them, they get angry and want to rape them? I truly don’t understand how this mentality even makes sense.
The sad part is that most young women tend to accept this view. For example, if a girl wants to wear makeup and dress nicely, everyone will believe that she did it with the sole intention of attracting men.
It always been this way! Men that they owe women’s body so when a woman that is sexy and good looking resist to them, they become frustrated, powerless and angry. The frustration and anger come from the fact that they are entitled to women’s body as the article emphasize it, where comes patriarchy in our society. Even with all the progress, with feminism some men will never change their view of the world, they’ ll always think women’s body is an object they can use when they feel like it or want it . And this is very sad to see these mentalities till today.
“Some men learn that they should have power over women so that when it’s the other way around, they may feel angry and resentful. See women as your equals — neither less-than nor better-than — and respect them.” I am a female but I maybe should admit that I really do have these ideas in my mind. Somehow I think this seems like some people think that a girlfriend should not be taller (physically of course) than their boyfriend. It may make males feel they are small, or even without power. However, my boyfriend is not taller than me. And he is proud of me because I am taller than him. He told me that he can show his friend how he got a taller girlfriend. In fact, this really surprised me so much. I am a female who is taller than other girls all the time. It doesn’t make me happy until I met my boyfriend now. This maybe could change some people’s mind.
As mentioned in the article, some men feel resentful when seeing beautiful women because they think they should have power over women. As a man, I can tell that there is another reason. According to my observation, generally men have much stronger sense of self-esteem than women. That results in when a man see a beautiful and sexy woman who won’t be interested in the man, he won’t think the woman is too good for him but too proud and narcissistic. Most of the time it is very hard for a man to acknowledge someone, regardless of a man or a woman, is better than him. Instead, he might keep telling himself why is the man/woman bad even if they don’t know each other. Look back on myself, I’m not that resentful as mentioned in the post when I see a beautiful woman who isn’t interested in me. If I intend to pursue her, I will always show my best in front of her but pretend like I don’t care about her sight at all. Again that has something to do with self-esteem. I prefer to “attract” woman instead of “pursue”.
Thanks for your thoughts. It makes a lot of sense. Also, not all men feel resentful. Some men think that the women are dressed that way just for them — in that narcissistic way you described.
The strong male sex drive is a curse for a lot of men ( definitely my view when I was a serving soldier on operations ) If a product was developed to totally kill the male sex drive without any adverse side effects , the creator would be a billionaire…it would sell well , especially in Western countries.
I’ve heard other men say the same thing. Women are hurt in one way. And men are hurt in another. And objectification and sexual repression hurt both. Take a look at this:
Disempowerment Gives Women Weird Power Over Men
on reflection on reading the host of comments above, I realise I’m bitter over specific stuff that’s happened to me.
When I read some of the girls comments about the sins of men against women, I know they’re true. Some men are assholes. Others are rapists. Others are neither.
Some are guys like me, who always dreamed of a pretty girl. The more you’ve been rejected in favour of your better looking friends, who generally don’t realise the luck they have, the more you crave what you can’t have. Then add to this being led on by some cruel, selfish women, and voila…a decent man becomes a cynical, misogynist asshole. No ones fault. We can’t have what we want in life.
I can’t help thinking from the demonisation of men by some posters above as oppressive rapists, that women have been through similar cycles with men and have their own resentment. Perhaps the girls who tormented me for sport were victims once, and I bear their aggression for the fact I own a penis.
I guess the point is not to generalise.
Overwhelmingly, I realise that the surge of hate I sometimes feel is part defence reaction. The last few times I became infatuated with female beauty I ended up depressed and in therapy. It’s fear, is what it is. Fear of power. Much as the girls above seem to fear the physical power of men, by tagging us as rapists.
The only issue I have is with the societal tag. There’s as much pressure gunmen to be violent, and dominant as women to be beautiful. Observe male characters in every film, every female angled lit or magazine, there are no sensitive men. we are as much a prisoner of your expectations as you are of ours, and the media’s a mirror. There is no group of people sat around saying this is how we should be. Dominant, tough men, and pretty women, fill audience halls. Que the ‘yes but I like sensitive men’ . Doesn’t bear out in reality. I can admit I’m shallow in following biological urges, as should everyone.
I struggle with this. Of course, I never want to hurt anyone, let alone a woman. Yet, a pretty woman, attractive woman, isn’t it. It’s sexually alluring women, who go out of their way to look sexy. You can’t blame ‘society’ for rewarding attractive women. ‘Society’ is just the actions of many individuals, you can’t wash your hands of sexualising yourselves by ‘the magazines make me do it’.
Women know we have uncontrollable urges to be with beautiful, sexy women. Fgs stop with the ‘entitled to sex’. We don’t feel entitled. Wed prefer not to be provoked, on a daily basis, purely to give an ego boost to a woman….and that’s what it’s about.
I used to love women of all varieties, sexy and all. Over several years, I attempted to build relationships with attractive women. I’m not particularly attractive, but I have good job and generally good guy in life, yet every single conventionally attractive woman I encountered felt nothing of building interest, before deciding after they had got me hooked in with a few dates to then push me off, like a light switch. Average guys get used, over and over, for their time, effort, money etc by women who are putting every effort into attracting them whilst knowing, deep down, it’s all a game. A game to make you say ‘I like you’, at which point, they believe they’ve won, and continue seeking what they really want, which isn’t, or never was, an average looking or unconventional guy.
As a guy, I’ve bedded women I have intention of having a relationship with. Men and women do this to each other in their in ways. However, the headfuck a man experiences from being played from pretty girls hits some hard. I got played for 3 months by a siren of beauty, who I later learned was showing everything I said via text to her friends, they, as a group, lead guys on. It’s a game. Imagine how humiliating that feels. Even more so than a girl being played for a one night stand. I needed therapy to start talking to women again. 3 year’s on and I’m still not over it. These girls spend their lives arousing that feeling of sexual attraction in a man’s programming and enjoy leading on and brutally crushing them. And the fems and you, above, say I feel entitled? Does a man who lies for a one night stand then tells the girl where to go, does the woman have relationship ‘entitlement’. no. She’s had her bio urge for a mate exploited.
My rule of thumb is to ignore any woman who overtly sexy. 1. They are chased by every man and his dog, usually have had 100s partners. 2. They have inflated sense of ego 3. You’ll be fighting dudes off you’re whole life 4. You stand a better chance getting sex by ignoring them, by showing backbone.
Back on topic, yes, I feel the rage when they pass me in the street. Of course, I want them. But gentleman, be aware the majority of attractive women are utterly spoiled and most have a terrible opinion of men, hence the ‘entitlement’ bullshit above.
I feel your pain.
I agree for the most part. I feel tortured by women, since none of them are attracted to me. I want so badly to have sex with them, and they want just as badly for me to leave them alone. The constant rejection I receive makes me feel like people would rather I be dead. In fact, when I try to talk to people about my feelings, they often do tell me to kill myself.
As I feel the rejection and negativity of the world, and become increasingly alienated, I start to hate people. Why should I care about others if they don’t care about me? Am I just going to accept my fate as the bottom of society? I cannot.
One thing I strongly disagree with is that men feel entitled to sex. That is not true. Men have a biological demand for sex. Why the hell would a man risk life in prison for an hour of fun by raping a woman? Because their sex-drive is just too powerful.
wow, I don’t know how your comment made it through moderation. You say men don’t feel entitled to sex but then go on to say no wonder a man rapes a woman? You come across as a creepy, socially inept manchild and that my be the reason why you’re having a hard time with other people.
Hi Jenni: this is the only post where I make an exception to my “comment policy.” That’s because a number of people didn’t believe that men actually felt the way I described, So I do allow misogynistic comments on this blog post as a way of confirming what I’m talking about. Sometimes I even thank the guys for helping me out. (Which probably isn’t the reaction they were expecting.) So if I allow men an exception on this post, I allow women an exception to social graciousness, as well. Hence, I will also allow your comment to be posted. (Generally I don’t allow people to call each other socially inept — unless they word it more nicely.)
As a women, we’re taught to believe that we should be on this planet to please men. We feel that the attention we get from men and women alike is a reward for our sexualization, but also feel self conscious and vulnerable when we receive this attention. As you said, there is no winning this game. We are torn between feeling proud and sexy, or ashamed and degraded; both feelings that come from the same source. Women are on this planet to entice men, but they are not allowed to be enticing. They are on this planet to be sex objects, but they are not allowed to enjoy sex. This paradox continues to destroy one girl after another, with no end in sight.
First of all, the comment, “if I were actually desperate enough to rape somebody it would be from wanting that person” really affects me. Why does it have to turn to aggression towards women? Men treat women like objects, “sexy, clean” objects.” If they can’t get them they throw a fit and become aggressive. Men play just as many games as women do. Women’s reactions towards men treating them poorly isn’t aggressive; it has a sadness aspect to it. We internalize being rejected; we don’t externalize our frustration by rape.
I don’t understand why it’s the women’s fault for the way they dress. “The way young women dress is the spring constitutes a sexual assault upon every male within eyesight of them.” I don’t understand this at all. I would be very interested to hear from a man. Is it just because men are more sexually driven? Why does the appearance of a women stimulate a man so much? I agree with the author, “women feel tremendous pressure to be beautiful because society rewards them.” How do you draw the line between building up your self-value and “self-worth” and being too good-looking that men degrade and objectify you? I think it’s a double standard that society has placed on women.
I agree with and really like the final conclusion drawn, “instead of being angry at women who aren’t interested in you, see the beauty of those who are.” Why get hung up on someone who isn’t interested in you. The world is full of people; there’s no need to become aggressive towards one woman who “rejects” you.
>Why does the appearance of a women stimulate a man so much?
Because sexual desire is not a conscious choice that you can turn easily turnoff. It is just human nature.
As a woman, i understand that women like to dress up and feel sexy when going out. we will spend hours on our hair and makeup, now myself, I like to feel sexy and beautiful when going out. I Dont think that we should be dressing any more modest for men. First of all we don’t dress up for men, sure as women we like to feel noticed and we want to feel wanted because that is the way women are hard wired, we like the attention on us, But most of the time women dress up for other women. I feel that women like to dress up to look better than the next female. Girls are always trying to be the best dressed in the room, the hottest, the cutest, its all competition between girls. Its not always about dressing up for men. Men need to understand that its not always about them.
I believe that this is all about ego. All men want to have that feeling that they could get any girl they want. I had one of my buddies, ask a very gorgeous girl out, and when he got rejected, he was furious. This was not like him because he usually takes rejections, quite lightly. he said that she was the most prettiest girl he had ever seen and each time they walked passed each other, he felt some sort of calming and lovable vibe. But he knew each time he would go up to her, she wouldn’t even pay the slightest attention to him. So his feelings for love, turned to hatred, because no mater how much he showed that he liked her, she never really noticed, and that is what made him mad. He didn’t want to rape her, but he wasn’t too happy with his ego being so low afterwords, and felt like he was betrayed and made fun of the entire time.
I believe that social pressure is one out of many factors that make men believe that women dress for their viewing pleasure. Yes, I have seen many females flaunt their women features but I do believe that they are more pressured to look that way from social factors. We tend to always follow popular culture each and every generation. Little by little women have shown more skin that the previous decade. If men are being provoked to rape on the basis of what a female may be wearing during this time of age, what would it be 10 years from now when women will most likely have less to wear than today?
To see the male responses primarily agree with this notion that women shouldn’t dress to ‘tease,’ as if we (are supposed to) consider men’s feelings, libido, and ego when we make all of our decisions, is (sort of) surprising. In this case, I agree that culture, especially media- has a lot to do with influencing our gender roles and what we expect out of ourselves and one another. I personally think it is a selfish and egotistical fact that men are offended by the literal beauty of a woman, whom is most likely minding her own business and dressing for herself however she damn well pleases. I do, understand however, that many men and women don’t realize how we can unconsciously limit ourselves and each other, without realizing or developing an opposing thought to it due to cultural conditioning. To an extent, I can see why beauty and its ensuing arousal can bring about a kind of carnal, sexual nature that is hard to resist. Yet, to perpetuate this frustration that you are not getting this same arousal in return is selfish and is an example of the entitled male role we have prominently seen for most of our history. I know our biological differences are significant, but this post seems to closely associate more culturally than anything else. Women dress for themselves & how society has told us to portray ourselves too. In this age, I feel that I’m seeing a great increase in body positivity and independence from the male (expectant) gaze, empowering our choices as a person, and not only as a partner in connection (mom, sister, etc.) to men.
Either way, I think it’s ridiculous that men would actually be offended by a woman strutting her stuff! We have a right to feel good about ourselves just as much as men (or any other gender) do. The double standards projected onto women and girls makes it a lose-lose situation for everyone. This is simply wrong and again, a great example of objectification with support from some of the male responses to this post.
This is a topic i understand very well. The reason being that on one hand attractive women make me angry, on the other hand im not angry at them is just that the event ‘seeing a attractive woman’ triggers angry inside me. I know they are not trying t hurt me, and i think they can dress as however they like.
So i understand why is stupid to fault women for your anger but i also undrrstand how the anger occurs, the main ingredient that turna that anger into victim blaming, desire for revenge and resentment is entitlrment. Because i dont feel entitled i dont blame women for my anger. Instead i know that it its my shyness and lack of datinf skills and general social awkardness’ s fault so im angry toward these flaws.
Thanks for your honesty and for sharing your experience.
Wow! thats pretty interesting. I dont know what pleases men? if its not women’s beauty? I mean, not to generalize, but for the most part I thought that men preferred beautiful women over all. And yeah I do get the idea of why women “dress up” to please men. In my culture, some women are taught to dress up to show off in front of men, but the irony that these days some women are dressing up to show off or tease other women. As for someone who could not care less about what she wears (me) I would say, dressing up should be for the sake of being comfortable and feeling beauty comes within inside. Because I personally have seen people wearing the best and most expensive they could ever afford but then ending up not enjoying the event or whatever they are dressed up for because the dress,skirt, pants, could be too “tight” or they simply don’t like what they are currently wearing but just to please the society.
Maybe these idiots just need to stop. I’ve never had any problems with just looking at attractive men. It’s not offensive to me for people to dress the way they like.
I wouldn’t date a guy who only hit on me because he wanted the hottest girl in the room but then she rejected him. I’ve dated one of those before.
Making prettiness look like a big deal is super immature. A prettier girl isn’t worth any more than the others. We too can have qualities like intelligence, passion for what we do, funniness, the ability to put on a nice outfit and spray some damned perfume etc.
But if we’re just here as balm to soothe your shitty ego, then count me outa here.
And this is not to say women don’t. Obviously, mom’s are very protective of their children and I get that. Many mom’s would sacrifice themselves for their children and you don’t want to mess with a mom protecting her child ha. I’m saying how that protective nature is usually for women to their child or children, whereas for the good men, it’s for women and children, though mothers are just as if not more protective of their children and other children.
I think it’s a very human reaction.
Well I don’t know if wives are protective of their husbands as good husbands are of their wives. Not because the wives care less, but because men love and feel a duty to protect the woman or women they love. Plus as a man, I want my gf or wifes support, but I don’t want her to try protecting me. If there’s danger, I’m the guy, I’m bigger and stronger and I will protect her and risk my life if it’s means that. What a terrible, cowardly husband would a man be allowing his wife to jump infront of a bullet for him or fight danger off for him? No, would not allow to ever be put in a situation of tragedy and regret.
Well, social roles clearly are involved. Women often feel like they need to care for their husbands in ways that are less protective and more servant-like. And this is decreasing over time because our roles are changing. At this point it is still considered the male role for men to protect women.
PS: could you put your “ogling” comment in much fewer words? The problem isn’t that you have one long post. It’s that there is too much for me to read.
How incredibly sexist of you to make such baseless statements derived from outdated stereotypes. There are plenty of women who would protect their loved ones just as there are men who’d do the same.
Well, there are stereotypes and there are social patterns. And stereotypes often create social patterns. And while you are right that women often protect men they love, too, stereotypes can affect behavior such that Bob isn’t completely off. When a man is taught from the time he is little – Whether it is from watching cartoons and TV, or whatever else – that he is supposed to protect female loved ones, plenty of men may well be more likely to do this. I remember when I was living in LA and there is an earthquake and my husband threw his body over mine — and I didn’t do that with him. I suspect that comes from many years of having been taught that that was his job. We are moving toward a less sexist society, and less internalization that men are supposed to behave one way and women another, but we aren’t there yet.
I’m going to take a wild guess and think many guy’s have the mixture of pleasure, and I wouldn’t say hate, but frustration when seeing some beautiful, sexy women and not being with them. I think it boils to hate when a man is so low in self esteem or insecurity, as well as maybe personal experiences to cause him to hate women. Frustration can cause some resentement ,but not usually to the extent of hate. The guys who only get pleasure out of seeing women, I think are guys who are extroverted and not afraid to talk to women and have had many dates or sex with women. Therefore, there isn’t an anxiety or frustration with beautiful girls, and not seeing it as a tease as much, because they were born with the gift of gab and can talk to strangers easily. My buddy was like that, it was always pretty easy for him to take chances and talk to girls as he just always had things to talk about or it was just easier for him. Being social is easier for some people compared to others. It’s like how some people are naturally good at directions while others are terrible right?
I think the anger and jealousy, well this is kind of speculation as I don’t know all men. But from my male perspective, I think the biggest resentment or why there is. It’s not necessarily because they can’t have sex with these women or they feel women are flaunting them, Well the sane ones don’t think that. But I think it’s the frustration men have toward women in the sense that men resent women, since women don’t have to feel or know what it feels like to have the visual arousal and urge men have, but can’t have sex with a woman. Men resent, I think the lack of lust and urge women have towards their bodies, so women have no idea what it;s like and how powerless men feel of their sexuality since it doesn’t provoke near the same response or frustration, plus how easily women can have sex and even with a guy much better looking than her and how it doesn’t stop woemn in their tracks or bother them to not have sex from that man.
Well, some guys say they hate women, And I post their comments instead of deleting them ON THIS post because so many people don’t seem to believe that it does happen.
I’m sure that there is a mix of feelings otherwise, and that it is grounded in insecurity as you say. And men who are angry often talk about the women as “Flaunting.” They take it personally when really she’s doing what society tells her to do: Look good so that you will be valued and worthy.
Unfortunately, I do believe there are men that hate women. I don’t know what it is, that brings it out of some men who hate women to abuse and be violent to women. There are women that hate men too, but usually you don’t see these women, decide to walking around finding men to kill and shoot with a gun or harm men. Some women who hate men, just remain jaded and skeptical and don’t want to be involved with men and bitter. Whereas, men who hate women are one’s who rape, or commit domestic violence, verbal abuse or other forms of control and threats to keep women in control and to take their anger on women for.
It’s just a bad combination of culture, plus maybe the way a man was brought up, his insecurities, the people and peers he was a around and probalby some biology. A man also probably has to have something missing too, and a lack of empathy which could be nature too. I know plenty of people who had rough childhoods, and bad parents and bad influence, yet were not bad, and the opposite. Like some people are just born very compassionate and with empathy for human beings and can’t even find themselves to hurt others even if culture objectifies. And that’s why, while I’ve mentioned frustrations with some women sometimes and somethings women might say or do that is mean, etc. I’ve always had empathy for women and girls and feel for girls. It’s easy to overlook but I and other guys don’t realize what guys take for granted. I don’t have to worry about being harmed or raped by women or murdered or not usually. While most or many guys are decent, there’s far too many who are bad or creeps or who hate women.
I feel how women always have to be aware of safety because of men. And while I do have lust for attractive women, that obviously does not stop me from caring and that’s the foremost thing. Even for girls I’m attracted to, well like women and girls in general, I think about their well being and am protective of girls I know. I remember driving a girl home that I worked with and she live in kind of a ghetto part of the city and she walked out and how I made sure she got in fine. I’ve waited after work when a co worker girl was waiting for her ride, but it was night and it was just her and I wanted to make sure she was fine and safe and she appreciated it. Just stuff like that. It’s more than being a gentleman, it’s just about this male care for women. Unfortunately there are men who are the opposite. It’s not that I don’t care about others guys as I do, but like, my protective instinct and caring is more towards women and children and my first thought of making sure things are ok. I remember the sad shooting 3 years ago at the aurora movie theater in colorado. I remember reading the article about the people shot and their stories and it was already sad. But I remember reading about the tragic, heroism from the some of the people. A couple of the men shot and killed were shot and killed from jumping in front or out of instinct most likely, being shields for their wives, or girlfriend and child.
It was so sad, and yet I totally got it. I understood it, because, it’s not to be macho or act cool, but seriously that’s exactly what I would have done. My family, gf, wife, mother, it could probalby just be a girl I’m friends with, and children, my protective instinct would cause me to try to stop it or protect. Most likely, because I have enough regrets in my life. I’m not going to set myself up to have a regret for life of allowing and not doing something and having someone, girl, woman, child that I care and see them die, because I was a coward and didn’t do anything. Rather be dead, than deal with that for the rest of my life.
This is a veyr interesting post because I was actually having a conversation with my brother about this, he says that girls that are generally very attractive to most people he hates because they usually think they are the “shit” and that is annoying to him. What I told him is yes he could be correct but also i agree with the post that it is because most men like to have or be incontrol of women so when they feel like a women is unattainable then they dont like it so they hate pretty women.
You keep saying women dont dress sexy for attention, they do it for there own self esteem??! (yeah self esteem.. which means they want to feel desirable, ie: they want to be attractive, ie: the want attention, which makes their self esteem go up) it all comes back to the same thing. its natural for men and women to both want to feel desriable, thats nature. All humans are slaves to their biological cravings. I have never felt entitled to a womens body, but i do feel (almost) uncontrolable desire for womens bodies. This is why prostitution should be legal, it would be a much safer and happier society. legalize drugs (less ppl will do drugs) legalize prostituion (less ppl will rape)
First, I quoted a man who studies men and masculinity, and maybe it’s an exaggeration to say that all men feel entitled to women’s bodies. It’s probably more accurate to say that all men get messages suggesting that they should be entitled to women’s bodies — but not that all men internalize that message. Maybe is the men who hate pretty women who have internalized that message.
But I didn’t say that women don’t dress to get noticed, to get attention. I said that it’s not about the guy. It’s about her. In other words:
It’s not about the men, they shouldn’t take it personally:
She doesn’t dress up to make men feel powerless and lesser-than. And she doesn’t dress up because she wants to each of those men to sexually want to be with her.
It’s about herself:
Women are taught that their value lies in how attractive they are. If they look good, and men’s heads turn when they walk by, then the women get confirmation that they are attractive, And therefore worthy. It’s about her self-esteem.
I feel that this article has opened my mind completely. Many is true why be angry at a pretty women that is not interested and see the pretty in a women that does which makes perfect sense, men have some type of anger towards a pretty girl just because he has been rejected but at the same time a women does dress in a specific way because society accepts that way and that’s how they feel comfortable being. What does this mean? S what does a men consider beauty? Aren’t all women pretty? Many people in society care about looks about how a women dresses, her hair and make up not everyone but most do and that’s a problem because they are thinking about looks not how a women personality is. This article is agreeable many men feel angry for a pretty girl rejecting them but most should just not care whether he is or not because their would be another girl interested. Beauty is not about looks and many people have different definitions for beauty but we should see beauty as we all have it, it is not only looks is each and everyone of us. We are all pretty
I think beauty has many different ways. And maybe is because my culture and my background, I don’t think beauty equals dress for less. There are many words for beauty: elegant, naive , kind and so on. These different beauties don’t need to wear skirts that just cover their butt. In China, a few years ago, if a girl dressed with very short shorts or skirts, a low-cut dress or shirt and very high highheels, people will assume that girl is a prostitute. But now a lot of girls dressing in that way. The reason is not only because they think that way is prettier but also want to get more attention no matter from men or other women. I think if you dress up very sexy way then you deserve the special attention from the men. And a lot of girls feel proud they can attrack men’s eyes and exciting with the feeling of control. But not all the women think the same way.
I do feel like women dress to flaunt and tease men cause there were numerous settings where i couldnt keep my eyes off a sexy clothed beauty(most of these women classey sexy) would look at me in a conceited way and me not being confident and insecure i let it get to me and feel like i was just used and brushed off to boast her ego….. If there are any men out there who react to women who dress sexy in any wrong way just man up and feel thankful that she put the time into getting your attention…
This topic is very interesting because it shows one of the reason why men what to be dominant over women and that is because some woman are very attractive and makes men what to have power over them and the topic itself have been one of the reason why woman is fighting for woman right. By reading the article, just by wearing something beautiful, sexy, and attractive makes men “angry” about it and make them think that we are just playing with them. What is the logic in this? Just because of the clothes, we can be accused for sexual assault and men tend to see that it is natural to be so and if a man dress up attractive, they are not. It does not make any sense.
I do not understand how some people fake helplessness saying that they cannot control their ‘impulse’ when they see an attractive woman. Whatever said and done, even if we assume all men are desperately sex hungry (another cultural norm men are pressured into), it cannot be an excuse to commit a crime against a fellow human.
For all rapists, if you cannot control your impulse, and plead guilty because of it, it is akin to an animal that attacks people but still expects to live. The same god who gave you lust gave you brains and the power of discrimination. If you purposely don’t use your 6th sense and behave ‘like an animal’, expect to be treated like one and punished severely.
On a funny note, I read somewhere that women dress to impress other women and not men. (So true, right? xD) I think some women dress themselves for a social/cultural statement, not a desire to attract attention but to satisfy some biological instinct…I guess…
I surveyed my students on this once and found out about one third dress for other women, One third dressed “for society” (To meet social expectations and gain self-esteem from feeling like you are meeting them), and about one third dressed for male attention.
Thanks for your thoughts!
I’m an attractive female and I’ve been treated like total crap by a number of guys for no reason at all. The only thing I could come up with was they were intimidated in some way. Sad! Women who are attractive are normal people like everyone else. I wish people would quit thinking we’re this way or that way. Get real.
Poor self-esteem causes a lot of problems — for everyone!
I think the same thing goes for some men as well. When we see a handsome men, do we not only think that a lot of females are in to him, but we also judge them by calling them flirts. Sure some men use their good looks to hurt a bunch of girls, by breaking their hearts and cheating but there are also a awful lot of good looking guys that are genuinely good, and they actually care. They might not the be worlds best looking guys but there is beauty in everything. 🙂
Do you think that women hate attractive men? I’m not aware of that, But maybe some do.
I agree with this post. I put a cute outfit together; do my hair, and makeup to make myself feel better. There is nothing better than feeling extremely confident because I feel put together. I am single and I definitely do not spend over an hour in the morning or getting ready to go out to impress random guys who may or may not be my soul mate. I definitely do not do it so that men get pleasure or so that they can get power over me. Although, When I was in a relationship I did curl my hair and do my makeup when we had date nights to make my boyfriend at the time smile a little bit more or to shock him a little bit. Now that I am single I realize that I shouldn’t have done all of that because that’s the only time he would smile a lot or “get more butterflies”. Taking a step back women in relationships should feel beautiful without the help of a male and to find their own confidence within.
I think it could go both ways. Men hating pretty women and women hating handsome men. When you see a pretty woman, you assume that she has a lot of men trying to “get at” her. But what kind of men? Handsome men? Rarely! Since majority of men has internalized that they need to maintain power they would likely choose a partner that is lesser than or equal to how good looking they think they are. Choosing a less appealing partner is one way to attain dominance in a relationship. So then pretty woman gets rejected/ignored by arrogant handsome man. She starts to despise them; then, starts to aim lower on the handsome meter. I agree that beauty comes in all forms but the media has a different idea. I don’t want to look at a girl and think she is ugly because she doesn’t look like Kendall Jenner. I don’t want to look at an average sized girl and think she’s obese because her ribs aren’t showing. But it happens. We only see one form of beauty and it’s whatever the mass media says it is.
I feel that most if not all women are just as attracted to each other as men are. This has been my take for a long time their figure is as aluring to them as the opposite sex thus jealousy always reins supreme over all females and they compete with eachother ! Ive seen rage and spats start over just this thing complete strangers! It not you guys they are impressing .I give up on stupid humanity and its evolution to procreate. Lots easier living single. Cheaper too
I don’t think that they’re just as attracted (if they’re straight), even though plenty of women learn the breast fetish. But that’s patriarchy’s fault. Women’s sexuality seems to be more flexible than men’s. Now add a culture that only sexualizes the female form.
Wow! This was my initial response, just wow, and then frustration followed. I just can’t seem to find it in me to have any bit of sympathy for men who have this issue. The way that a woman chooses to dress should be based on her own wants, needs and desires, not a mans. Women are born with these body parts, just the same as men are born with theirs and we don’t tell men that they can’t go topless or that they can’t wear tight jeans or a nice suit. Men are allowed to dress however they please without fear of women raping them due to an uncontrollable attraction. Men don’t have to think about what they put on before going to work, school or a bar, even if some of these places may have certain dress codes, men still don’t have to worry about being attacked by angry women for being too sexy!
It is absolutely ridiculous to me that a man would even propose such an argument. I am quite honestly shocked and truly appalled at the quotes that were provided, just wow! How can men possibly think and feel this way simply because of a woman being attractive? And how are women supposed to survive in a world that tells them they have to be beautiful, thin, and sexy to have respect or power, and then when and if women actually achieve those things, they are punished for it with rape or crude comments by men who are upset for not being able to have them for themselves? Needing to be beautiful or well put together is something that our society projects upon us, and I agree that when women get dressed up they are most often just trying to feel good about themselves. Women should be allowed to wear whatever they want to feel good about themselves without having to worry about being objectified by men for actually attaining beauty.
This article made me think about Elliot Rodger and his anger towards women for not sleeping with him, he believed that he was the all mighty alpha male and that he was entitled to have sex with the prettiest of girls, and sought out revenge by shooting at beautiful women in Santa Barbara. I truly just don’t understand this kind of anger and feelings of entitlement, women are not objects, women are people just like men. However, this obviously comes from a real place within man, since it seems to be somewhat of a common belief that some men have. I just can’t wrap my head around how and why, as well as how to stop something that is so unjustified and horrific. Is this biological? Is this learned? Our species has to be capable of so much more then just the need for sex and power.
Pretty sad, huh?
I never knew men felt this way. I remember going out to a club when I was in my twenties. It was my 24th birthday I knew I was looking good that day and so did the men at that club. a few guys approached me. I told them I was waiting for someone they became bitter and mean to me. The start calling me stuck up or you think you’re too good for me. Just foolish words of that nature. Now that I read this blog it clear to me why my ex behave the way he did when I would dress up and go out with my sisters. He would say things like you think you’re all that or I hope you’re not going out to meet another man. When I first meet him he said he didn’t think I would give him the time of day and most females as myself would date basketball players or a man with lots of money according to my ex. How funny.
When I saw pretty friends who wore sexy dresses, I used to feel depressed. On the one hand I respected their styles and complimented their dresses, but on the other, I felt depressed because of the contrast between me and those friends. My T-shirts and jeans were just too different from their dresses and high-heels. I felt like being a boring or unattractive girl whenever I saw them. So my reasons were slightly different from the reasons guys had. But still, having confidence and self-esteem is the most thing both guys and girls need to have.
I think this is not only happened with man. Both men and women will feel the same way if they try to gain attention from another attractive once and get nothing back in return. Some people know how to reject another without giving them a bad time, but some people is too harsh into getting attention and get angry after all. I think hot and attractive girl in general get more hit from guys and some time it make them feel uncomfortable. Some guys don’t have enough patience and they just want to get attention so they feel angry. Most guys like pretty and hot girl but not most of them have a chance to get along with pretty girl. Some guys take it as failure and get mad but I think most guy just let it go and find another attractive girl whom may like them back. As human, men and women always want to look good and like pretty people.
I am wondering how guys feel about this topic? Is it true?
Has anyone thought of women hating men for looking good?
I see good looking men everywhere and unfortunately I hate to admit that “I hate pretty men too”. Yes, they’re great to look at but when they’re built to perfection and only eyes other beautiful women, it makes me a little mad. However, I’ve learned to come to terms with it. Everyone is beautiful and pretty in their own way and if other people can’t see it, then screw them! It’s a waste of time to “feel” sad or remorse to someone you barely know, just because they are good looking. After gone through this phase of “I’m not good enough”, I hope that others out there don’t feel degraded because of this. Oh, and pretty girls? Please be nice and respectful to other boys -not just the good looking ones!
Interesting. Sorry that you had to go through a phase of hating men for being beautiful. But you do pose an interesting question.
Have any other women out there hated men who are too pretty?
I was surprised to find out that the act of rape doesn’t come from feelings of desire but of resentment as well. It never occurred to me that someone would hate a woman for merely looking pretty. I always assumed that all men love looking at beautiful women. It frightens me to know that when I dress “sexy” that there is a subset of men out there who feel anger and resentment towards me. Its just another added element to women’s safety issues.
And actually, men never rape out of desire. They rape to feel like they have power over someone. They want to feel empowered. It’s a violent, humiliating act, meant to make him feel superior and powerful.
I read the post and almost all the comments. The post really hits the target. I found this article by googling “men hating pretty women”, and I was googling this becuase I’m such a man and I’m trying to fix that issue in me. For example, a day ago I saw a very pretty girl in a bus and I had the exact feelings described in the beginning of the post. I still have traces of those negative emotions in me and they make me real unhappy.
For those who are interested, I can describe how this attitude developed in me. When I was in my early twenties, I was quite confident and considered myself a worth human being. I didn’t have issues thinking “Oh, that girl is out of my league” and like that. But then I fell in love with a pretty girl, and she treated me with great disdain: whenever I asked her out, she was saying very humilating things. Something like “there are too many exciting things in my life so I even wouldn’t consider hanging out with you”. When I tried to terminate any contacts with her, she reappeared being positive and flirty with me and that gave my hope that he could date me. Crazy unexpirienced fool — when I asked her out again I heard the same stuff.
Then I became desperate and tried to approach random girls on the streets, in cinemas, buses and so on. The results were predictable: many polite rejects and many impolites ones like complete ignore with terrible grimaces on their faces.
Now I’m trying to figure out what to do with all of that crap. Yes, I have female friends, and I know that there are some nice girls and considering all attractive women as evil teases that only enjoy hurting my feelings is a huge overgeneralization. But I have no idea how to deal with all my terrible experience: it makes me hate women although I rationally understand that it is a completely wrong attitue.
Everything is fine in my life, I’m completely happy where I am now except the relationships issue. I’m 25 and a virgin, I have never had a girlfriend. Sometimes I think I’m doomed.
I’m so sorry you have had such a negative experience.
One thing to keep in mind is that when anyone acts superior to others, they are doing that because they don’t feel good about themselves. (Even pretty girls may have been hurt by Family members or someone they have been in a relationship with in the past.) Then they subconsciously “have to” put someone else down in hopes of lifting themselves up. Of course, it doesn’t work.
Unfortunately, hurt people hurt people.
I’m saying this not because I think you should feel empathy for them, But because you should know that it’s about them, not you.
Sometimes there’s just misunderstanding. Approaching random girls could actually be weird, off-putting, A bit shocking, or even scary for them — hence, the grimacing. Probably better to get to know someone, first, before approaching them.
Other than that, I don’t know you well enough to have much else to say. But as they say, Live and learn.
One correction: when I described my feelings when I saw that girl on the bus, I of course didn’t even think about raping anyone, but the rest was very truthful
So you identify more with the general feeling of hate than the subset who also want to rape out of anger. Thanks for the clarification.
It is not more or less, I find raping anyone by anyone else due to any reason absolutely totally completelly unacceptable.
Attractive people don’t owe you anything.
This scares me. I did know there were men who hated women for being pretty. That’s a real serious problem that should be mentally treated. That’s not normal. I find this article really interesting because it is totally true that “Women feel tremendous pressure to be beautiful because society rewards them”. I think that woman don’t dress sexy to impress or please men, and do so because they have in their minds the idea of that women have to be pretty and sometimes can get misinterpreted to being provocative. Women get judged really easily, while all that they are trying to do is fit in society. I, myself, don’t approve women dressing half naked, but in some way that’s what society drives woman to do, dress certain way to feel pretty, and it varies because we are all different. I suppose men don’t see it that way because they don’t exactly know what it is like to be a woman.
I can’t wrap my head around why in the world they take the sight of a woman so personally? I mean can’t they see how unsignificant they are amidst millions of people? Obviously that type of entitlement and narcissism verges on mental illness.
I once heard a male companion hiss “I hate bitches like that with that look on their face who think they’re better than everyone else”, I turned around thinking someone must’ve bumped into him or something, turns out he was talking about an attractive women half a mile away who was unsuspectingly going about her own business and never even looked into our general direction. That must’ve been the offense.
See men would like for us women, I infer from it, to greet every single one of them with an overenthusiastic blowjob. Alternatively, but ideally, we shouldn’t even leave the house, go to school or work so as not to remind men of the “power” we have over them.
I’d suggest a more peaceful and humane alternative, namely to put #yesallmen into mental hospitals.
Guess I’m PLAIN DUMB,but….WHY ON EARTH WOULD MEN HATE PRETTY WOMEN?
This strikes a chord. It’s a more a hatred of what–not they–but my biochemistry/neurons/whatever response as many of the previous commentators have pointed out. Maybe for a brief moment, it’s unadulterated misogyny at women and their power to effect this, but it’s never hatred at the specific stranger but more a generalized anguish. The article is spot-on in acknowledging this. Sorry for some of the repetition in my comment by the way.
Personally, I would never rape a women or be physically or verbally intimidating, abusive, or any such inconceivable thing. Rather, I would shrivel away and send out uncomfortable leave-me-alone vibes, admittedly tinged with hostility–actually directed at myself and the situation. I’d suddenly be very interested at my shoes or if on the BART(a train), stare at the window. I admit angry and sexist thoughts flash such as “she probably isn’t sexually frustrated/has it easy” or “she probably doesn’t appreciate the guaranteed existence of eigenvalues on complex vector space” and I truly am uncertain as to their validity.
There are males with a heightened sensitivity to female charms. I can tell that Elliot Rodger was definitely among this group. Internally (and I totally agree that this is in NO way the provocatively dressed woman’s problem at all), it’s a problem on our side, and like previous commentators have observed, taming that desire…sucks. The result for those that manage to do so and also victimize themselves as being teased is bottled up pressure.
So what’s the resolution for shy, self-inflicted tortured individuals–the outlet? Looks like it’s time to answer the questions your article poses (namely “what’s a guy to do?” in this case) Well there is anticipation and prior avoidance. Not everyone can cope. Personally, avoidance and pursing distractions works well.
Next question. “How about expanded vision?” Concerning viewing females as–(not-entirely-sarcastic gasp)–people, possibly. Why not remove the vision all together? This cop-out solution of embracing alternative distractions and ignoring females could be viable. And for all parties, better than violent endings.
I checked out the linked comment article, hoping for a resolution more…fulfilling, and it was basically my exact unresolved thoughts with this one (hilarious!) exception.
“You CAN want sex, very much, but still enjoy looking at a pretty woman on her own merits without needing more”…Sure. Not for all people. He’s right on the “needing” part, but totally wrong on the enjoying part. In this case enjoying precludes the lack of needing and enjoying would not even happen in the first place. As for the other points, for many people, there’s actually nothing to change as that’s…sort of obvious.
It’s just a muddle and we know it. Anyways, my solution is basically try to avoid any pain triggers. I’ll avoid interacting with them and maybe come across as rude and self-centered (which honestly is not really untrue), and their existence when we do rarely uncontrollable interact will cause me pain. Neither of us will hopefully suffer too much and just do our own thing. She would most likely be able to socialize and do whatever it is humans do with each other with other guys which her femininity would easily attract and won’t have to bother with me while I can have an uninterrupted and less painful ride home. Mostly, I’ll partake in my own (girl-free) hobbies with occasional lonely brooding nights (like this one)…luckily with the advent of adult videos…
In a way this is could a subtle form of retaliation. Not retaliation in the sense that the article quotes against females, but to spite something deeper: social and evolutionary programming. To try and forge your own path, despite being “weird” or whatever shaming words people use on those that don’t conform to social mores. You would not ignore her to inflict pain (when it’s unintentionally the other way) but rather to gain a mastery over yourself. Maybe both sides will get offended this way, but again, it beats violet alternatives and overly-optimistic and vague notions of change that that one linked article espoused. No woman will be considered “asking for it” this way. In fact, the only thing they would be asking for would then be in fact less attention from certain males such as myself! Which would probably be best for all of us.
One last thing, us males who do choose this coping mechanism should then never complain, since it’s our active choice to build these walls.
tldr: It’s the women’s prerogative to flaunt her assets and this will inevitable cause tension. A possible resolution for some males might be to try to not bother at all.
Interesting. Food for thought.
I hate how people claim sexism is no longer an issue, when this social dysfunction clearly demonstrates that it is. I can not tell you how many men I rejected while I was a college student/part time waitress, but the number, to be honest, had to have been in the hundreds. About 25% of the time, I was verbally abused for rejecting men, as though I “owed” them something because they liked looking at me. I could never imagine a girl screaming “Fucking stuck up bitch, I wouldn’t f*ck you with a bag over your head. Stupid kunt.” All because a guy said no to a date invite. But it happened to me. And it’s not like I was mean, I just said “Thanks for asking, but I’m no, I’m not interested. Would you like another soda?” Yep. And he grabbed my behind on the way out. What did my coworker say when I told him about it the next day? “What were you wearing?” <— yeah. I see handsome, intelligent, driven and educated men ALL the time. These are all things I admire in the opposite sex. Seeing a fit man in a nice suit discussing foreign policy or the latest news with nasa gives me butterfly's in my stomach. It still does not entitle me to their interest, and I would NEVER handle rejection with anger and violence. Nothing biological going on with men who use sexual attraction as an excuse to be hostile, it's more like extreme sexism.
“Nothing biological going on with men who use sexual attraction as an excuse to be hostile, it’s more like extreme sexism.”
You nailed it.
I find it funny that men desire to touch beautiful sexy women. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve given a male a chance no asked a man to touch me and he refused. No joke. Men breathe heavy around me cuz I’m beautiful and give off sexual vibes yet refuse to touch me. I think I may be trapped in some warped parallel universe. Most of the time I have to force a man to touch me. I have to ask him to touch my butt then I get called weird for it. Men literally choose to be puppets and robots they are scary. I am terrified of men now. I literally stay platonic with every male I meet and pretend they’re off limits because of how strangely they treat me. They are abnormal and most want to torture me. My recent guitarist who was normal began acting psycho. He didn’t ask me out or ask for sex but I think he wanted it. Then he began dominating and abusing me and is still abusing me and even trying to mess up the whole group trying to make me suffer. This is all males do to me. Make me suffer. I stay away from men. They are mostly crazy.
I always knew men were psychos but just how twisted do you have to be for that whole process to go down in your head?! Sick, sick freaks all of them.
It also explains why they insult you when you put an effort into looking nice and ladylike. Heels, makeup and a dress seem to really make them angrrrrry. Those poor miserable fuckheads. Next time I hear one of those mongrels “notice” me aka loudly pointing out my “flaws” I’ll take off my high heel and will stab his eyes out in the middle of the shopping center.
I don’t typically approve comments that insult one another, but I make an exception on this post because a lot of people insist men aren’t this way, and proof lies in a lot of these responses. So if I’m letting guys do it here, turnaround is only fair.
If a woman doesn’t notice you she is either preoccupied or not interested. Take into account how you compliment her. If you come on too strong she is going to be weirded out. All you have to say is hi. If she is not interested in talking to you she’s not interested. It doesn’t mean she’s a bitch. If a girl does the same to a guy it doesn’t mean she is being clingy. She is being nice and saying hi.
Just ignore them and it will drive them crazy wondering why you are not giving them the attention all the other fools do.
Oh Gawd, yes! Please ignore us! I am 45 and happily married and keep hearing these stories about that glorious day when men (other than my husband) will start ignoring me and it has yet to happen. I can’t wait!
The problem is most of us men can’t play with a woman’s physcology we tend to give them too much attention and compliment that’s why even when someone compliments her she just ignores. Men should control and hide their feelings like women do and they will just come around soon. U will see
Let’s make a “flipping gender” on this subject.
How women feel, react and what do they think about “pretty men”?
I guess they are more “indifferent”, they may notice a good looking guy and that’s it.
They will notice him but the men’s hatred seems to come from a place of feeling weak, When men are supposed to feel strong and also feeling frustrated that they can’t have something they want. So the difference is that Women aren’t told they are always supposed to be strong so it doesn’t go against their socialization is the did feel weak. But also, since we don’t fetishize the male body, Women simply won’t feel as out-of-control as men seem to — even though they can find the guys really attractive, And be drawn to them.
Isn’t this a bit unusual?
Meet the Man Deported From Saudi Arabia for Being Too Handsome
Hmmm, A little jealousy?
If a woman is not interested in me, she is a bitch. If a woman is interested in me, she is God.
Or at least a goddess?
I generally won’t post things that are misogynistic (the first part of your comment) but on this post I need a certain amount of evidence that guys actually do feel the way you do. Because some claim they don’t.
Honestly, I can say I have never felt this way (I am male). Whether women (and men) dress to get the attention of the opposite or same sex, or for whatever reason, I really just wish humans could stop being so vain and shallow. This article just points out how we judge by appearances so much.
Of course, it will take a great deal of work to change such things.
First of all, let me say that rape is a ridiculous notion to consider in any circumstance. It could never and should never be considered as a viable option (not that anyone is saying it is, but more directly I’m saying it could never be excused). I suppose too that I’m speaking from a very specific perspective, in that I was molested as a child and it came back to me in the form of repressed memories. Yes. I’m in therapy. I am an attractive guy, or have been told that… I can never really be sure because my self-esteem is so low. I guess this is a common result of being sexually assaulted, especially when you are a child. I have felt the heartbreak my whole life of women not being attracted to me – especially pretty women. That is because women are attracted to confidence in men, something I have struggled with my whole life. Point being, I do believe women get off on being lusted after and having the ability to reject men. Not all women, but probably a majority of the beautiful ones. It’s the same thing that drives the Alpha-male’s ego… They get off on it because they feel power over men. In my case, it doesn’t make me want to rape, it just makes me suicidal… That’s just being real. John Lennon’s words “all you need is love” were never taken that seriously, I guess… Maybe not even by myself. Don’t know if it’s biology or conditioning that makes men lust after the most beautiful of women. Maybe both.
I’m so sorry for what you went through. I hope you’re seeing a good therapist to help you through this.
Some other thoughts:
1) I seriously doubt that many pretty women do this to get off on rejecting men. Women are judged primarily for their looks. When heads turn, it confirms their beauty and their self-esteem rises. Human beings are actually comported to not want to hurt people. Though hurt people often come to want to hurt people. But they are the minority. I personally hate rejecting people. But you can’t be with everyone. But you want to look good for self-esteem.
2) some of the happiest couples I know are what most would call unattractive. Looks just aren’t a big deal to them. And I wonder if guys who get mad at pretty women for rejecting them ever reject women who they think aren’t that attractive. Could be a double standard. Might consider what causes happiness. Love over looks it seems to me.
Thank you for your thoughts. I think I lucked out with the therapist. She’s helping me get through some pretty rough moments… feels like I’m getting better though.
I absolutely believe there is a double-standard – I’m guilty of it, as is most everyone. Even those who like you say would be called unattractive are guilty of it. I’ve heard some totally out of shape and unattractive dudes be superficially judgmental of how some very attractive women look. Defense mechanism, maybe… Or just being an A-hole. Probably both.
I agree that the majority of human beings don’t want to hurt people. I also believe that people don’t really want to cut each other off in traffic, but they do it. It’s not so much that attractive women are out to hurt guys, it manifests itself that way because of the pressures society puts on them. Like you said, their self-esteem rises when heads turn. That’s the point, they’re looking to be wanted and being able to be selective. But they’re fully aware this involves enticing men and then rejecting them. It’s not evil, just selfish.
I agree that they prioritize themselves. But it’s a double bind of damned if do or don’t. Don’t and people look down on them.
I’ve read that rape is about men wanting to assert power, but I’ve never heard that it’s about retaliation. It’s very interesting that a man would feel like he is entitled to a woman’s body. I wonder what about society would make him feel that way. As a girl, the only thing obvious to me about men and society is that they are expected to not express as many emotions as women. Women are expected to look nice, but what does that have to do with men feeling aggressive?
I don’t necessarily believe a girl dresses attractively not for men, but for their own self-esteem. I mean yes, of course it has to do with her self-esteem, but I think it’s tied to her self-esteem because of the expectations of men. The women who dress “sexy” tend to get more attention from men. While I am not asking for superficial relationships, I know it would be nice to be noticed by more guys. At the same time, perhaps it’s because men have come to believe they have the right to act that way towards these women, and not because they don’t find me attractive….
And interestingly, the retaliation can be about power. Some of the guys who comment on this post talk about being resentful of women having power over them by making their knees weak in the way they dress. And then not putting out. So the guys are feeling powerless in this situation.
And one-third of the women said they did dress attractively for men, so yeah, some do. But what do you get from their desire? Your self-esteem will go up. But anything else? Are you going to have sex with them? That pretty much never happens, so how is their desire helpful other than raising self-esteem?
I don’t think it is all men hate pretty women (I don’t). The men that do hate pretty women are probably the ones that have experienced something not so great with a pretty girl. They hate how women often give them a hard time to be/feel accepted. The more beautiful the girl is, the more validated the man feels. The men who get angry at rejection are the men who simply don’t understand women. Women don’t dress how they dress for men, but for themselves or to meet the double bind standard of society. It’s dumb logic to hate all women because of a bad experience with one.
For sure, not all men hate pretty women. I hope I made that clear in the post.
One Friday night after a long day of rehearsal, I went out with my boyfriend for a night on the town. My bf picked me up straight from my dance class and I didn’t have an extra pair of clothes (this wasn’t a planned outing) so I was just going to go in my t-shirt, dance shorts, and tights. It wasn’t anything inherently risque but I suppose my shorts could be considered a little tight and/or short for everyday wear, so my boyfriend told me to put on his sweats. The reason I had had no problem going out in these shorts was because I was used to wearing them all the time for dance and I didn’t exactly see a huge problem especially since you couldn’t see anything and my tights held everything in. My boyfriend on the other hand thought they were far too short and that I should cover up. He informed me that he didn’t want other guys to fawn over me but it struck me as odd since he had never told me to cover up before. I had worn these same shorts out to eat after dance several times without a word from him. I almost was off-put by such a request since he himself is one I notice fawning over or at least staring (for longer than just a glance) at very attractive women every time we’re together. Both the hypocrisy and the small act of control bothered me about this situation. And it got me thinking about how other men would view me in these shorts. My intention of wearing these shorts was not purposeful and it hadn’t even occurred to me that men would look. Though I did not think they were sexual in any way. Then I thought about how I view other women who wear tight yoga pants around town and I realized I had always assumed they knew exactly what they were thinking when they put them on. Perhaps I was wrong. And I know many guys who would stare openly and even rave about women who wore yoga pants. Now, I have friends who are girls who wear yoga pants and do not use them to work out in. Maybe this is where I got my assumption from. Either way, it made me realize that yes, perhaps guys would stare at me in my dance shorts. Though not once would it have crossed my mind that dressing sexy or even in something that accentuates a sexualized body part would I frustrate a man. Even when I have purposefully worn something that I thought my body looked good in, I had no intention of ever going out just to show off and reject men. And as an attractive women (or so I’ve been told), I resent the idea that men would feel resentment from that, haha. It does seem like men take things very personal, but I believe than women do as well. But perhaps seeking power for oneself by dressing sexy could seem like seeking power over others. I have only heard the girl’s side on this though, never the guy’s: in which they feel powerless to the women. I know women who love the idea of feeling sexy because they know they’ll get attention from a man (which does give them a certain amount of power over men) but I have never heard a woman say she loves the idea of being able to reject men if she purposefully dresses in a way to draw them in. I myself have felt empowered by wearing an attractive outfit or by doing my makeup to enhance my looks but I have also felt inferior to other women who might have done it better. And I think that’s what some men might be overlooking. That no matter how much power we think we have, it’s still probably not enough, which is why we like attention. And it’s not our fault if we don’t find a particular man attractive, but for most women, I’m going to have to agree that we do not purposefully enjoy rejecting or purposefully ignore a man to empower ourselves. In fact, it’s probably to feel good enough to be able to “land” (get the attention of) an extremely attractive man so we ourselves are not rejected or ignored.
Men have no entitlement over women’s bodies. That’s just plain wrong. We, as women, are people too and the only person that’s allowed to control our own bodies are ourselves but men don’t get that which is why there is rape happening in the world. According to the blog when it talks about the way women dress in the spring is constitutes sexual assult makes no sense to me. Just because women like to dress a certain way (shorts, tank top, and flip flops) when its hot gives no rights for anyone to take that as a sign of “I want to have sex.” It definitely doesn’t.
Wow there is so much to this topic, to be honest I never saw men’s anger towards pretty women as a power struggle. What an insight full view. It really makes sense, if a women by being beautiful, make a man feel like she has all the power, in this world and society of men having most the most power at all times, would shake a man down to his core.I do agree not all men have that view or rather way of thinking, but it got my thinking, I have this guy friend who only dates girls he feels are unattractive. So one evening I got bold and asked him why are all of the girls he has dated not near as good looking as him. His replay at the time made sense to me, but after reading this blog, my opinion has shifted. Back to his response, he told me that ugly women (his words) treat men better then pretty women, so he only date women that are considerably less attractive then himself. I first thought that perhaps he had a point, but as I dug deeper, why are women placed into these two categories? Pretty=mean, and ugly=nice. This can’t be the only explanation to his rational to date below his attraction potential. Now that I think about it I strongly feel that his real goal in all this, is that if he is the better looking one of the couple, he could either get away with more, thus always having the upper hand, aka having the most power in the relationship. Needless to say his all relationships thus far have failed for him. On the other end of the spectrum, we have men that feel women are objects to be looked at. In turn wanting women to dress according to such a role for there pleasure. So wheres is the middle ground? Can’t we dress nice and look good with out being assumed to be a bad girl that will treat men badly, and are asking for it, in the terms of sex. Or do we have to dress badly and make ourselves look less attractive in order to be seen as a good nice girl. For my self, the reason why I dress up and do my hair and makeup, is to feel good about me, not for anyone or their thoughts.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
interesting topic, but here is my opinion. There’s nothing wrong with a man being attracted to a woman, and thinking of her as being “sexy”. That’s just Nature.
What is a problem, though, is when the attraction is not mutual, and the man refuses to accept in good grace that the woman does not accept his advances. “No” means “no”.
It’s also a problem when only a narrow subset of women conforming to a certain stereotype — typically white, young, slight of build and blonde-haired, often with artificial enhancements, and almost always born girls — are even considered eligible to be called “sexy”. It’s a problem for women who don’t conform to the stereotype, obviously; and it’s also a problem for men who are attracted to anyone who does not conform to the stereotype. Paranoid, misogynistic, homophobic, macho “lad culture” riducules anyone who deviates from a narrowly-defined ideal, and causes some men to behave against their own better judgment for fear of being perceived as “less than a man”. This can be detrimental to an individual’s mental health.
It is very interesting to read in a mans words what it feels like to understand rape. Personally, I could never even imagine having such a feeling of hostility towards a male to forcibly mount him as revenge. It doesn’t make sense to me.
It doesn’t make sense to me to want someone to be tried in court for dressing how they feel fit either and it really doesn’t make sense to me to be affected by anyone else that much. Reading this made me think about the way men interact with women. It makes me a little bit more fearful, but it also makes me feel more comfortable with knowing that sometimes it’s not personal. I understand that nobody wants to be made to feel stupid or out of control. It’s clear that women are used to it so the anger doesn’t stand out as much, but for men they haven’t been socialized to accept criticisms nearly as well and they just can’t take it. It’s not okay to express it negatively but at least by having insight into what causes men’s rage, allows it to become a topic of conversation and as a whole society can work on addressing ways for men to not feel so attached to women’s appearances and actions.
Wow I had no idea men reacted this way to a woman’s beauty. I being a guy have never felt entitled over a woman’s body. I don’t want to be offensive here but if a guy is getting angry because a girl is attractive to him i feel that there are some underlying issues involved. perhaps it does have to do with the way mainstream media portrays men, women, and beauty. Other comments have touched on this but i believe that this is where degrading terms like slut and skank come from. These words I would never use because I understand that women like to have sex and just like they are entitled to their bodies, they are entitled to have sex and I am in no position to judge how much, or with whom they do it with. I feel that these words will soon be outdated and I hope that someday our generation will have to explain to our grand kids (at an appropriate age of course) the concept of these terms.
I hope you are right–that these words will soon be outdated.
This is interesting, I see this a lot on social media networks. I noticed that when pretty girls get a lot of attention on social media such as Facebook and instagram, males are quick to judge. Coming from my personal perspective a lot of my friends see this and start assuming. They say things like, she’s a flirt, she’s a hoe, she probably sleep with all the guys that commenting on her page. Just stuff like that. its always the negative things that come out first
I found this piece pretty disturbing because I have experienced it myself. I also wonder if there is something beyond porn and the media behind this entitlement some men may feel. Sure, some woman may feel attractive from gaining attention from males. The paradox that woman are rewarded and at the same time found threatening to a some man’s control, shows just one of several contradictions to what a woman’s image should be in society. These days, I am more inclined to cover more because of the negative attention I’ve had in the past; as well as a nagging feeling of resentment from thinking that I should be able to wear whatever I want -less in the summer- without the fear of being harassed.
Sure there is more. There is a whole history of greater privilege for men and women. Plus, man being told that they are supposed to be powerful and in control. And then, as some men have commented on my blog, the way women dress makes them feel like they are weak in the knees and like they have become disempowered by women. In patriarchy’s, men are told that they are supposed to be a superior status. And then beautiful sexy women make them feel inferior. And all that pisses them off.
I have had plenty of men call me bitch if I won’t give them my number? Uh, what ifI am in a relationship already???? I am ok looking. I dress nice, heck I even get accosted in sweats..so no difference. I’m damned if I do, damned if I don’t. So if I am going to get harrased in my sweats I might as well put on something that flatters my figure. And I like looking sexy. Not just for me..but I admit..for my boyfriend too. Well after seeing my boyfriend who loves me in tight jeans, I went to the store to grab some groceries. A guy says, “you’re beautiful, Give me your number.”
I’m not the kind of woman to be mean so I tell him, “thanks for the compliment” I have a boyfriend I LOVE very much. I’m taken so noone gets my number! I walk away.As I walk away he says, “Fucking bitch;”
Yup, men hate the beautiful woman they can’t have. Maybe he thought i thought I was better than him. But I cannot give my NUMBER to every man I meet, even if I was single.
Would a man REALLY want that kind of woman?
ANd just because we woman say no might have NOTHING To do with the man asking. YOu have no idea where she’s been, what she’s going through before you all of a sudden want a pretty woman’s attention and pissed she won’t give it to you.
Heck, a month after I gave birth and the father left me…the last THING i wanted to do was DATE again, ever. So there I was , a single mom with a newborn at home. The father of my son had left me a few months before I had my son. I swore off men completely. Brad Pitt could have asked for my number and I’d tell him to fuck off.
i felt bad about myself but it didn’t stop me from dressing in a way that flattered me. The only time I have boobs is when I am pregnant or breastfeeding, so you better belive I wore a shirt that flattered my chest that would soon be to preteen size within 6 months time.
I had a guy ask me for my number.And I said no. And there went the word Bitch thrown in my face again.
Guess what guys, it’s not always about you. Sure she might look hot..but it doesn’t mean her refusal has anything to do with you. Maybe she loves looking sexy. So what. Maybe the reason she is saying no is because she has a boyfriend already, she just gave BIRTH a month before or she just likes being single(what a concept!!)
Anyways, I am happy I heard these men call me a bitch. I fear for the women who does give these kind of men their numbers.
They just reinforce that you made the right decision.
I agree with every point you made. I feel women dress provocatively because we were taught from a young age that short and tight outfits are the way to get male attention, after all that is what the models and TV stars wear and it works for them. the worst part of it is it actually works. I would like to point out that females can be very manipulative and vengeful, if an ex boyfriend is at a party and you still have feelings for him you may dress provocatively to say “look what you left i bet you wish you still had me”. I don’t believe its the females fault that men get angry when they see provocatively dressed women. If you have a problem don’t show them that it’s OK.
Seems a matter of insecurity and pride, two faces of the same struggle. Men feel powerful when they can capture a beautiful woman bc they feel the trophy reflects on them, with the reverse holding true.
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Yes, I’m using WordPress. And it’s very simple. Don’t need to know any coding.
This is really crazy to me. So when they see a beautiful woman and they know they can’t have her, their next instinct is to see how they could have power over her…this is beyond selfish and self centered. I can understand that its not a good feeling to see someone really attractive and know that there is no possible way that the person feels the same. But i can’t ever understand that that fact will make men want to have revenge and show women that they have power. Am pretty sure women don’t feel the same about seeing good looking men.
Easier said then done! We’ve got this “tricky thing” called hormones!
I don’t get it. Most guys don’t hate pretty women, and they’ve got hormones, too.
I think the article is right because most girls dress in ways that make them happy. We don’t have to dress in provocative clothing to make ourselves happy though because most of the time the way they dress isn’t because they want to impress someone. Even if you do dress to impress someone you shouldn’t need to feel to impress someone. You should get someone to like you for your personality instead of appearances. Technically men should not have any say in how a girl should dress. They shouldn’t even feel that they have to “power” to own a women’s body either. No one should be able to have control over someone else’s body because everyone has their own right to do whatever they want their body.
Growing up I had an hourglass figure, but I would often cover it up in baggy clothes. People would comment that I should show off my figure more. I felt like I looked frumpy, hiding under my clothes. I felt that I wasn’t exhibiting good self-esteem. But when I began to dress in more form fitting clothes, it was hard to find clothes that fit my large chest without showing off too much. Many form fitting clothes are made for smaller breasted women. So then, in embracing my sexuality through dressing in a more sexy manner, I ran the risk of being seen as too revealing. I was even told once by a boyfriend that my revealing shirt was a sign of low self-esteem! So either way, I wasn’t seen as dressing “correctly”.
So, it is true that women are just doing what they are expected to do, trying to be beautiful, because there-in lies their power and self-esteem.
The fact that men have power over women in so many other areas leaves women with sex appeal as their strongest power over men. Women can use this super-power in many different ways to get what they want, but it is certainly not to make any man feel badly that he is not good enough for her—or that he cannot get what he thinks he is entitled to. This just demonstrates how differently we all think from our own perspectives.
I never knew that some men feel rejected, resentful and angry at beautiful women who they are unable to “get”. This is very surprising to me. Thinking of violence towards women as a retaliation against something started by an offending beauty is a completely new idea to me.
I think the author of this post has some very valid points about how to re-frame unhealthy, or damaging ideas.
Correction: Men don’t hate PRETTY woman, they hate pretty woman they crave and CAN’T HAVE.
But I know that when I dress up, it’s for myself and feeling good about MYSELF. Of course being noticed by a guy would boost my self-esteem. But it also depends how a guy were to approach me. Being humble and respectful would win me over than a guy who’s willing to buy me things with a cocky attitude. Men have to think about too when seeing a pretty girl. Although we may look like we know we look pretty at times it’s possible that on the inside we may just feel uncomfortable that a guy is staring at us because we look bad. Insecurities and egos are always misunderstood.
Men do not like pretty women because, most of the time, they are the worst women in terms of behavior. As they generally know that they are pretty (because a lot of boys tell them so), they tend to be arrogant and tend to take the boy’s status of superiority. Some girls go even further by thinking that because they are beautiful and a lot of boys want them they can do whatever they want with their partner and if this one decided to break up they do not care because they still have a lot of other ones waiting for them. So, as men always want to be superior to women, not all men will want to have a pretty woman with whom they know they might loose their status. However, some men with a strong character would accept to be with a pretty woman because they will be able to handle their “bad side” if needed while some others do not want to feel “degraded”. Also, men hate pretty women because otherwise they are more likely to be in competition with all the other boys that are waiting to have their girl.
“To those who think that women flaunt their beauty as they laugh and degrade you, know that that’s not what’s happening. Women are simply trying to do what society tells them to do: look beautiful.”
Society also tells them to be loyal:
To provide for their family domestically:
Well, society sometimes tells women that they should cook and clean. And sometimes society doesn’t. I’ve heard both messages and I don’t cook much. I have way more interesting things to do than that.
On the other point, the main reason women file for divorce more than men has nothing to do with loyalty. Men are as likely to cheat as women are.
Judges are more likely to give women custody because they are working in the best interest of the child and typically women make more sacrifices for children as they grow up. Women are more likely to give up jobs or downscale a job so that they can spend more time with children. That’s because of their social role. Men are more likely to be the primary breadwinner because of their role. http://www.divorcenet.com/resources/divorce/for-men/divorce-for-men-why-women-get-child-custody-over-80-time
If a man has given up his job and become a stay-at-home dad, he should get the children. Just happens less often cause there are way more stay at home moms than stay at home dads. But I know a case where that happened.
Otherwise, women are more likely to file for divorce because men won’t divorce a woman unless he has another woman lined up. Men are more emotionally dependent on women than women on men because one of the few ways that men can express emotions is with their primary female partner. Because patriarchy insists men must be stoic, emotionless.
And everything I’ve talked about is because of patriarchy. So if you have a problem with it you should start working against patriarchy.
” If the theory worked the way it claims to, we would only have beautiful people around anymore.” I know , I was thinking about the same thing. It does not make any sense does it. The golden ratio which is the vertical and horizontal distance between the eyes and mouth ,or the symmetrical on both sides also is desired , but the average face is considered to be symmetrical which is interesting. As far as models being so thin they are anorexic looking is not always the case for some of the top models you see. They are thin but a lot of them have personal trainers and rather than thin there are women who just have well built physiques that model and don’t look anorexic. But for the most part super thin (Twiggy) has always been the preferred standard look of high paid models.
This article makes me think that some men are just so self-centered. When I go out and dress myself up, it’s not for the reason of having guys look at me. It’s certainly not for the purpose of making other people feel like I’m degrading or rejecting them. When I put on makeup and try to look beautiful, it’s for me. It’s a way of expressing myself and at the same time boosting my self-confidence. Some men say that dressing up is a way of inviting or signaling that I want attention or will accept advances. However, I think I have a right to dress how I want, and not need to be forced to accept attention or advances. I strongly agree with the advice in the article that “instead of being angry at women who aren’t interested in you, see the beauty of those who are”.
I never thought about raping someone for not responding to my attempt at talking , I mean that is insane. Oh the unfairness of life. There are losers, there are winners,and there is all that role playing and expectations we are supposed to live up to and /or become invisible walking around with shoulders sloped forward , a permanent frown ,and getting older. Time goes by fast and if you are lucky enough to be born with good looks and don’t have any self esteem problems chances are those will be the people getting all they want and then some. Its not a fair world so the best way to approach people is to not think too much about what they are thinking, live totally fear free and don’t expect anyone to behave a certain way or that they are obligated to pay attention to you. That’s when you start looking towards other people to solve your problems, and that is unattractive I would think.
Of course, as you have done, we can also encourage people to be charitable toward others, too.
I was talking about relationships only when I was saying the world is unfair. We seldom are loved in a relationship because we are in need to be loved. It is because the other person is attracted . It is kind of a selfish thing really to pick out the most attractive the richest or strongest person but it seems nature does not care about the needs of the lonely, it just wants to continue the species with the best traits in order to survive. This is why people are competitive and try to look as good as they can to attract a mate. Welcome to the jungle as the saying goes.
Only problems with the view that we are attracted to the most beautiful people to reproduce the best genes are these:
1) what is considered attractive varies from culture to culture. In some cultures obesity is considered attractive, even though it’s unhealthy. In our culture models are so skinny that they are anorexic. Again, not healthy. Sometimes guys say that they prefer bigger women and I know that a lot do. But Victoria’s Secret models don’t seem to have any problem getting men.
2) what happens in reality is that beautiful people mate with beautiful people, average people mate with average people, And unconventionally attractive people mate with unconventionally attractive people– a.k.a. people who aren’t considered especially attractive. If the theory worked the way it claims to, we would only have beautiful people around anymore.
This post gives me a better understanding about how guys feel. I see where they are coming from. That they would feel frustrated if they see a girl wearing something that would grab their attention and when they show interest they are shot down, but I don’t agree with the fact where it make them want to have some type of revenge which might lead to rape. This is just not acceptable. Yes sometimes a woman might dress showing a little too much skin but this is not to make a guy angry. It’s to make us feel good. Or sometimes girls dress up just because they want to. Yeah maybe some times girls take it too far and maybe they should take it down a few levels because sometime I see some girl that wear dresses that are way too short or reveling so with this I agree that it’s too much, but not every girl with do this. Men and women both like to be looked at and feel desired; it’s an emotion that everyone likes to feel.
well with so many Very High Maintenance Women that are out there now, many of them do think that they are God’s gift to men with their high paying job. these type of women really do have a very serious Attitude Problem, and they are certainly Not All That like they think they are. It is very sad how women have Changed over the years, and Not for the good at all. It is very obvious why many of us Good men can’t meet a Decent woman anymore to settle down with, and we’re Not To Blame at all. It is just too bad that we don’t have a Real Time Machine to send these women back in time to see what it was really like when men and women had to Struggle To Survive.
I’ll go ahead and post this as another example of the mindset.
But I’m wondering how many guys are projecting your own beliefs on to other people. I also wonder how much attention guys pay to women who aren’t conventionally attractive, even while expecting women to pay attention to men who aren’t conventionally attractive.
Woman don’t dress sexy to attract attention! Some women do, some more attractive women but most don’t. Its more to do with the class issue that someone else mentioned. Women dress attractively to fit in to a class – either the same as their friends or to just not be at the bottom. The scale of attractiveness is getting higher and higher and the definition for being attractive is getting smaller and smaller and women are putting more and more effort in to be at the top. No one wants to be called ugly. For a man its not as bad, since they can earn money/gain a skill and be successful that way. For a women to be called ugly or fat, its stating that their worthless. Women’s worth is in their beauty(society tells them), if they have none they are worthless. They MUST dress attractively to survive. And yes, there are some women who know they are attractive and dress so to obtain power/control/attraction. But most dress so because they have to, men have power to judge attractiveness and cast a women aside because they don’t meet ridiculously high expectations.
To the men that hate attractive women but want a women of this type… you need to sort yourself out. Your looking at women as objects to boost your self esteem and not as people. If she doesn’t like you, she doesn’t like you. Try to better yourself and your personality, start being nicer and less judgemental, spend time around less attractive people and get to know them. When you start appreciating people for who they are, what they do, what they like instead of what they look like you will attract beautiful people who will genuinely love you.
Can we explore a similar topic in a new blog? Why beautiful women are 41% less likely to find a job: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1705244
These research statistics show that women are jealous of and hate beautiful women, women tend to be in the HR roles to review resumes, and beautiful women get screened out.
So- we state that beautiful women are powerful. However, a significant percentage of men hate women thereby justifying causing them physical/sexual harm. And, a significant number of women keep beautiful women from finding employment. Tell me again, how beautiful women are more powerful? I find the cultural environment of love and hate for beauty to be an effective isolation for beautiful women from the basic needs that all human being require: safety, security, food, shelter, social relationships! Something is seriously wrong with our societal norms.
Thanks for bringing that up. I have seen that data before.
You get a no-win situation here. If women aren’t beautiful they may be looked down upon,too. If they are beautiful and awful lot of people hate them and hurt them.
Men don’t seem to have this problem. If they’re attractive I’m not aware of people hating them.
I find this article extremely interesting mainly due to the fact that the rejected perspective of men is not something so often talked about. As a woman, I am constantly being told which hair products to use, make up tricks to apply, and trendy clothes to wear. Whether or not I choose to present myself provocatively with low cut shirts or short skirts, looking my best is always on the forefront of my mind and definitely something I can’t shake even for just a day. I never took the time to think about what I am asking from men by buying into the cultural norms that women are told they need to buy into. Am I looking for attention by wearing make up and dressing nicely or looking to blend in by wearing the right things that are culturally/socially/seasonably acceptable? A woman trying to stay away from negative attention by wearing the right things might be perceived as trying too hard, looking for attention, or “asking for it.” It was an interesting opinion to hear an aggressive/violent response from a man simply assuming that an attractive woman wouldn’t be interested in him and then hating her for it. For women, it is a double edged sword to be objectified. Our beauty we are told to highlight and the appreciation of it is something we are told to strive for, but judgments made solely on our appearance are unquestionably dehumanizing. I had never considered the snowball effect of media telling women to look a certain way, (women buying into it, women dealing with the response of men to this cultural-driven manifestation) having an adverse effect on the men whom we are told to get dolled-up for in the first place.
And then if we don’t get dolled up we can be put down for being ugly.
It’s the old double bind, damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
But I don’t think that women should be put in a position where they have to worry about walking on eggs lest men will hate them.
And hate someone because she’s attractive? That doesn’t make much sense. I don’t hate beautiful men. Quite the reverse, actually.
This is a scary subject. This has happened to me. I am not the type to be a victim, but when a man is attracted to you, and you have stated that you are not going to give him any, it can get ugly. You might even get hurt. And no one should ever force themselves on you.
Thanks for sharing. I hope it will be a cautionary tale for some men.
I’ve seen this happen a lot in society today. The whole, is she dressing for me or is she dressing for herself, situation. Basically it all depends on the point of view. To the women she could be dressing for herself and doesn’t want any attention from anyone. On the other hand some women dress “sexy” just for the attention, negative or positive. Men on the other hand, I believe it all depends on their mental state. If a man is positive about his self image then he wouldn’t feel threatened about a women dressing “sexy,” he would see it as “this women is in my league and I have every right to approach her.” In other situations some males, and females, have lower self-esteem so they see provocatively dressed women as a threat to there “place” as men. And in some cases it gives men, in their minds, the “right” to take advantage of this women to “put her in her place.” This is rape people and shouldn’t be justified due to their lower self esteem. I can’t seem to wrap my brain around the concept.
I feel like this article really brings to light how fundamentally rooted the existence of rape, slut shaming and sexism are in culture and society rather than being inherent traits—that these are consequences resulting out of a nurture problem, not nature. I think a lot of what prolongs these unfortunate circumstances are due to the ignorance of their even being a problem. A close friend of mine, intelligent, well-rounded, respectful, a gentleman, had taken me out to Downtown San Jose for dinner, and a woman wearing a short skirt walked passed and he immediately cringed saying “Gross, what a hoe. They’re just asking for it.” At the moment, though I was outraged by his comment, I couldn’t think of anything reasonable to say to prove how wrong he is for saying that, mainly because he said it as if it carried no weight, as if he’d just commented on someone doing something morally wrong. It reminded me of a baby who doesn’t know not to touch the stove because it will inevitably end up burning them, could they be blamed if they don’t know any better?
I truly gained perspective from this article, the next time I hear those type of degrading comments I’ll be sure to remind them that their opinion is a reflection of themselves and who they are—not who they’re judging.
The college chaplain’s claim that, “The way young women dress in the spring constitutes a sexual assault upon every male within eyesight of them,” could be partially true to some men who tend to be more aggressive towards women. I would like to believe that men in general do not look at women as sex objects but as beautiful beings whom they can admire. As a woman, I think that women has the right to look good and pleasing but not to be overly seductive in the way they should dress if they want to gain the respect of people especially men. Women should dress up to look beautiful, not slutty.
Many times I see women who wear very short shorts, very low breasted cuts, and too much makeup that I tend to think that they are seeking attention from the opposite sex and to perhaps make other women jealous of their appearance. Though I may never know what their reasoning is behind doing so, I strongly believe that men can either admire them or share the same opinion as me about them but in no way should think that they are entitled to women’s bodies.
What a big load of hooey.
Women dress sexy for ONE reason. To get attention. 99% of what ALL women do is attention getting. The only time there’s a problem is when they’re not getting the attention from the guys they WANT attention from. Then the disdain starts to flow and they’re not very subtle about it. Mercenary predators=women. Pure and simple. Never trust a word they say and never believe ANY of their so called ‘motives’. It’s all the usual LIE game they play.
A lot of people don’t believe that many men really feel this way and hate pretty women. Comments like yours bring evidence that they do. So I’m approving your comment as more evidence.
Well, I’ll be honest and share my story, even if it makes me look like one of the bad guys. I’m a man that has hate for beautiful women (and for men I perceive as the objects of their desire). Am I proud of it? Hell no. It just leads me to hate myself even more. I don’t feel “entitled” to their affection just because I’m a decent guy. That’s a ridiculous notion. I’m not entitled to anything in this world. I just hate that I don’t have sexual and romantic relationships with the ones I desire, and that I have to settle for less. Does it matter if it’s fair – of course not! Has nothing to do with fairness. If I was able to attract the ones I desire, I’d get them. But the fact is, I don’t, no matter how hard I work towards it.
So my problem simply boils down to the fact that I can’t seem ti accept a life of not attracting the women I want to attract. That’s where the hate comes from. And I hate myself for not attracting them, but even more, I hate myself because I have hate towards them. And most of all, I hate myself because I make it such a big part of my happiness, and my interpretation of my self worth. I’m trying to change. I just have little hope anymore that I’ll be able to.
Bunker Hunt said about how to get what you want – “First, you decide what you want specifically; and second, you decide if you’re willing to pay the price to make it happen, and then pay that price.” I’m trying hard to pay the price – I just can’t seem to make enough payments.
I’m not sure this will be helpful but happiness comes from wanting what you have and unhappiness comes from desiring but you can’t have. But I suppose you already know this.
With any luck you will be able to deepen yourself and appreciate more than surface appearances. I suppose that sounds like I’m preaching to you, but at the same time it’s a common cultural way of seeing, so I’m not trying to create a sense of superiority over here.
Some of the happiest couples I know wouldn’t be considered attractive by most people.
This article just seems weird to me. “Entitled to women’s bodies”. I don’t understand what this means. I understand wanting to get laid, so you ask a girl out, do the driving, paying, putting in all the effort, only to get a “Thank you, but you aren’t my type”. Seeing the phrase “entitled to women’s bodies” sounds like “I see pretty woman. Com’ere, bitch, I wanna screw you because I wanna”. That’s just messed. Maybe it’s the idea of women dressing sexy, but not actually trying to attract you sexually. Like what Dave Chapelle said “Just because I’m dressed like this [a cop], doesn’t mean I am a cop”.
Well, the observation comes from a male sociologist who specializes in men and masculinity. And he’s only talking about the men who hate pretty women. While there may be messages promoting the notion that men are entitled to women’s bodies, it’s likely only rapists and men who hate pretty women (which may overlap) who notice and heed these messages.
This article reminds me of Friedrich Nietzsche’s theory of slave morality, where slaves feel possessed and reactive with anger and resentment towards their masters. All their actions are reactive to their masters. They never act only react. So to, these men see woman as enticing them. In result they resent them and react in anger. The resentment stems from their weakness and powerlessness.
Thanks for the wonderful article.
Thank you. And thanks for your insightful thoughts.
Ok, here’s a draft. It’s not formatted in this comment, or even spaced right. But you can get the gist.
Also, do you have any background I could add, like a student of psychology?
Seeing Women as Magic and Evil
Food was both magic and evil. That’s a noxious combination, known to create obsessions and addictions.
That’s a line from a post called “I Overate Because I Felt Guilty Eating” and it really struck me. https://broadblogs.com/2011/06/22/i-overate-because-i-felt-guilty-eating/
Men who hate pretty women seem to see them as both magic and evil, too.
Obsessed and addicted? Sounds about right. How else to explain the enduring idea that seeing a woman leads to attraction, which leads to rape, complete with horrible analogies comparing men to beasts and women to (wait for it) food?
Men who hate pretty women wouldn’t hate them so much if they didn’t love them, too.
The love/hate relationship with both women and food chillingly echoes these words from a battering mother, about her love/hate connection to her child:
I have never felt loved all my life. When the baby was born, I thought he would love me. When he cried, it meant he didn’t love me. So I hit him.
Mmmmm, “I have never felt loved,” so I hated my unrequited love object…
“Some Guy” responded to a post called “Men Who Hate Pretty Women,” by saying that he hates how pretty women make him feel, not that he hates the pretty women themselves. https://broadblogs.com/2011/12/12/men-who-hate-pretty-women/
He adds that men like him are “measuring their self-worth based on their success with women.”
Thus, Some Guy — and men like him — already believe they are worthless.
They are (completely naturally) drawn to pretty women. But the women reject them, either implicitly (by ignoring their existence) or explicitly (with varying degrees of kindness, depending on how much the women believe the “if he likes me but I don’t like him, he must be a creeper” meme).
American society doesn’t — thankfully — let these men take their frustration out on women (unless she’s a prostitute whose humanity is denied, see Lenora Frago). http://www.ibtimes.com/texas-man-ezekiel-gilbert-acquitted-killing-craigslist-escort-lenora-ivie-frago-1295593
But neither does it provide any helpful coping mechanisms. (“You’re a man, pretend you don’t have emotions” doesn’t count.)
Men and women both lose.
Some Guy blames “primal survival instincts,” as though the problem were rooted in biology and impossible to fix. Not true.
The problem is psychological and possible to ease, even if only slightly.
Society — media, parents, teachers, role models, peers, and potential female partners — tell men that in order to be “worthy” they must be successful with women. But society doesn’t provide any real help or compassion to the “unworthy” (scare quotes 100% intentional).
In the long term we can work to change society. In the short term, you can work at changing your own thinking:
Your success with women does NOT determine your self-worth. Others may think so, but they’re wrong and you know it.
You CAN want sex, very much, but still enjoy looking at a pretty woman on her own merits without needing more.
Most pretty women walking down the street are NOT laughing at you or reveling in their power over you. And it may well be that none of them are.
The ones that are “teases” don’t do it because they’re evil sirens. They do it because they’re people, and sometimes people aren’t very nice. So what if some women have bad personalities? They only have as much power over you as you give them. You don’t have to look at them, think about them, or care what they think of you if you don’t want to.
Wanting revenge for pretty women existing is irrational, and is caused by your unmet emotional needs.
Women are people, like you. They too may behave irrationally due to unmet emotional needs.
You deserve to try to fulfill your unmet needs in healthy ways.
You are flawed, but you are of immeasurable worth. The same goes for all the pretty women, too
Ocelot first wrote this as a comment and I asked if I could post, with a little editing. The original comment is here. https://broadblogs.com/2011/12/12/men-who-hate-pretty-women/#comment-42000
There’s a line in I Overate Because I Felt Guilty Eating that really sticks with me: Food was both magic and evil. That’s a noxious combination, known to create obsessions and addictions.
Men who hate pretty women sure seem to see them as both magic and evil. Obsessed and addicted? Sounds about right. How else to explain the enduring idea that seeing a woman leads to attraction leads to rape, complete with horrible analogies comparing men to beasts and women to (wait for it) food?
Men who hate pretty women wouldn’t hate them so much if they didn’t love them too. This quote from a battering mother, about her love/hate object (her child), limns the dynamic with chilling frankness: I have never felt loved all my life. When the baby was born, I thought he would love me. When he cried, it meant he didn’t love me. So I hit him.
Some Guy, above, writes that what he hates is how pretty women make him feel, not the pretty women themselves. He writes that men like him are “measuring their self-worth based on their success with women.” Thus:
Some Guy and other men like him already believe they are worthless.
They are (completely naturally) drawn to pretty women.
But the women reject them, either implicitly (by not knowing they exist) or explicitly (with varying degrees of kindness, depending on how much the women believe the “if he likes me but I don’t like him, he must be a creeper” meme).
American society generally doesn’t let these men take their frustration out directly on the women (unless the woman is a prostitute; see Lenora Frago), but neither does it provide any helpful coping mechanisms. (“You’re a man, pretend you don’t have emotions”) doesn’t count.
Men and women both lose.
Compare this cycle of pain to that of the battering mother and her child, above.
Some Guy blames “primal survival instincts,” which makes it sound like the problem is rooted in biology and impossible to fix. This is not true. The problem is psychological and possible to ease, even if only slightly.
Society, i.e. one’s parents, teachers, and role models, male peers, potential female partners, and the media, tells men that they have to get women to be “worthy”, but doesn’t provide any real help or compassion to the “unworthy” (scare quotes 100% intentional).
In the long term, we can work at changing society. In the short term, you can work at changing your own thinking.
Your success with women does NOT determine your self-worth.
Other people (including the women themselves) can think so if they want, but they’re wrong and you know it.
You CAN want sex, very much, but still enjoy looking at a pretty woman on her own merits without needing more.
Most pretty women walking down the street are NOT laughing at you or reveling in their power over you.
The ones that are (i.e. “teases”) don’t do it because they’re evil sirens. They do it because they’re people, and sometimes people aren’t very nice. So what if some women have bad personalities? They only have as much power over you as you give them. You don’t have to look at them, think about them, or care what they think of you if you don’t want to.
Wanting revenge for pretty women existing is irrational, and is caused by your unmet emotional needs.
Women are people, like you. They too may behave irrationally due to unmet emotional needs.
You deserve to try to fulfill your unmet emotional needs in healthy ways.
You are flawed, but you are of immeasurable worth. The same goes for all the pretty women, too.
This is an interesting post. Would you mind if I actually turn this into a post for my blog with you as author?
If so, I would edit it a little bit.
And re this:
“Most pretty women walking down the street are NOT laughing at you or reveling in their power over you.”
I’m not sure that any of them are. And would like to add “and it may well be that none of them are.”
If you have a blog, I’ll link to you.
I wouldn’t mind at all if you turned my comment into a guest blog post. In fact, I would be honored.
You are free to make whatever edits you want for clarity. I only ask that (1) you put the two quotations in quote marks or block quotes (I messed up the quote tag the first time), and that (2) you provide a link to the original comment, especially since I don’t have a blog (yet?).
Again, I am honored. It was my admiration for your blog posts, which are well-reasoned and both anti-misogyny and anti-misandry, that inspired my comment in the first place.
Thank you. I assume you will want to be called Ocelot. If you want a different byline let me know.
Also, I can link to the post but I’m not sure whether I can link to the comment.
Sure that’s fine.
Does this link to the comment work for you? https://broadblogs.com/2011/12/12/men-who-hate-pretty-women/#comment-42000
Don’t know if The Good Men Project will post something by an anonymous “Ocelot” but I’m interested to contact them. If they will only publish with the name of a real person, are you interested in that? Here’s a link to their blog:
Did you see that I posted this? https://broadblogs.com/2013/10/21/seeing-women-as-magic-and-evil/
Some men (such as myself) don’t find “pretty women” attractive at all. This is because, in my experience, beauty is often inversely proportionate to intelligence, or, at least a desire for self enrichment (for example, reading a book every now and then). Are there exceptions to this? No one I’ve met personally. And so, because beauty often bespeaks of skewed priorities, I’m automatically turned off by most “bombshells.” I may be the only member of the male gender who feels this way.
See my blog for a more in-depth, less restrained version of this comment.
I don’t think the two are always at odds. I think I’m pretty intelligent but I don’t think I’m that bad looking. Maybe others would disagree. That said, I’m glad that there are different kinds of men that can be attracted to all kinds of women.
Well… yes, you do seem to be an exception to the rule. So congratulations on that, but I do maintain that women such as yourself are all but mythical.
We may not all be bombshells but here are a number of women who are widely thought to be both attractive and intelligent (though if your politics are different from mine you may disagree on some of these):
Nancy Pelosi, French politician Marie-Ségolène Royal, Angelina Jolie, Jackie Kennedy Onassis, Queen Rania of Jordan, Diane Sawyer, Gloria Steinem, Maria Shriver, The Nation editor, Katrina vanden Heuvel, Texas State Sen. Wendy Davis, Cate Blanchett.
There are many more who don’t come quickly to mind.
But as I said, I am pleased that there are men out there who prefer women who aren’t conventionally attractive.
Well, women think the Brad Pitt, George Clooney and Johnny Depp are sexy because that’s how they appear to be in their movies. They play the cool, confident character with a strong personality, so women “fall in love” with the “character” they play in those movies. If they were playing roles that have obnoxious character no woman would think that they are sexy.
Besides, they are famous, high status actors, that’s enough to make them look sexy to women. If they were some unknown next door guys, they would look more like “normal” guys and not hot movie stars.
And if an “average joe” would make it and become a famous movie star, all of the sudden he would be “transformed” into a sexy icon without changing his appearance.
Those movie and music stars are “sexy” because of their high status, their physical appearance doesn’t contribute that much. Yes it does help their “sexyness” but not that much.
Men on the other don’t care if that sexy woman is famous or not, she is desirable even if she is the next door girl. But women don’t desire men at the same level. Their desire for men is a calculating process, they analyze the data, job, status, dressing, personality, speech, manners etc and then decide if he is a suitable partner.
That’s why so many women don’t believe in “love at first sight”. – (I have read your posts.)
They actually are sexy just to look at. Now, would I want to marry any of them? Based on their character the only one I would want to marry would be Brad Pitt.
That said, negative character can get in the way of seeing someone as sexy — at least for me. For instance, I thought Christian Bale was really attractive until I heard about him abusing his mother and sister. I can still kind of see him as sexy but not as much as I once had.
Maybe if I tie this to your own experience as a male, you will understand what I mean when I say that there isn’t anything “fetishy” about men, and that women are seen as the sexier of the two sexes, but they still see men as sexy:
Most men would probably say that supermodels are sexier than their partners. Yet they still find their partners very sexy. They may well even be more attracted to their partner than to the sexy model — because they are drawn by so much more about her. Also, after a man has been with the same woman for a while any breast or butt fetishes tend to disappear with regard to her. But he still finds her sexy and attractive.
The media and the porn have made males to believe that they will get a beautiful woman no matter how they look.
-Women have to be beautiful but men don’t have to be beautiful-
That’s what the media have been telling people.
But this works against both men and women.
Women have learned that they are the sexy gender.
-So men must desire women but it’s hard for women to desire men- after all the male body isn’t that much desirable, thanks to the media, right?
So women have to settle down with a partner that have learned not to desire his body. But expect from him to cherish her beauty and desire her.
If he oggles at other women she will loose her interest, right?
And there we have a man who desires his woman and a woman who wants her man to desire her.
But every now and then, there is a good-looking man (he also has to be confident – that’s important) in the picture and all these stereotypes and expectations of how dating should done, goes away.
Trying to stay on topic, I should say to the men “who hate pretty women” that they should focus on themselves if they want to have a pretty woman.
Learn how to talk to women, work out, lose some fat, dress well, learn how to talk to women.
A man can become much attractive to women if he puts some effort.
But the media “promised” men a pretty woman no matter what, noone said anything that men should “improve” themselves.
Most men don’t even know how to properly speak to a woman, they think that “cat-calling” is the proper way to attract a woman.
I am a man and I hate when men cat-call women!!
Yes. All this works against both women and men.
But it’s an exaggeration to think that women don’t desire men. They do. There just isn’t anything “fetishy” about them. And even if women are seen as the sexier of the two sexes, men can still be seen as sexy. Most all women likely see Brad Pitt, George Clooney and Johnny Depp as sexy. And likely their own partners, as well, at least early on.
I think I hate attractive women because I’ve been single for far too long. Somewhere after the 2 year mark, a girls attractiveness became something to hold against her. Nowadays I skip the desire stage and go straight to hurt (either from her “unattainability” or because beauty seems to often come at the expense of every other quality). I also hate how attractiveness hacks my brain for automatic favors. It’s not fair, I only realize it after the fact and only 10% of the time.
I’m posting these sorts of comments – moving away from my policy of not posting misogynistic comments – because of the matter of this post. Some people don’t believe that what I say is true, so here’s the evidence for all of you doubters.
So Mr. Faust, you probably are not looking for advice so just ignore it if you think that what I have to say stupid and useless. But if you will look around you will see that there are plenty of married men who aren’t all that attractive. That leads me to believe that whatever problem you have with women does not lie in your looks. You seem to have a lot of hostility and hatred and that isn’t going to attract anyone. You might want to see a counselor to get yourself in better shape emotionally. I am sorry that you are so hurt. And I am also sorry that hurt people hurt people.
Reblogged this on Sharia law in the LGBT, and society at large.
Not true a lot of the anger comesxcfrom the fact western women have impossible standards that only the top men can reach guys such as myself get treated like dirt in twenties and are then expected to act a beta provider for some woman who viewed us as unworthy when they were young. For example I’m short spent my entire being treated like dirt by women because of it. I have never had a relationship thanks to my height so yeah my hatred is valid
Thanks for another example of all this.
That said, I’ve never argued what you say in your first sentence.
As for being short, I’ve had crushes on I’m number of short guys. So I doubt that that’s the problem.
concerning randhis words –
every time I see these kind of girls I feel like want to carve off their face….those are strong violent words. I have heard those words being yelled at me before, “I want to rip off your face, bitch!” and I will always remember the feelings that I had when that happened.
I hope randhis gets professional support for the pain and anger that was sincerely expressed.
There are many layers of pain in the posting but those words really stood out for me.
It may be difficult for some to understand, but having a beautiful face and body does not make one have a stone heart.
wow. lots of interesting posts here..this is half rant half journal entry. I landed on this site from a google inquiry on contemporary notions of beauty and how it has evolved and just thinking in general about the modern state of affairs of attraction between men and women. As a trigger happy search engine freak, I felt compelled to write this after a day of walking in the city(Manhattan) on a hot summer day. Right now in NYC there are gorgeous women everywhere(and men) . It’s awesome, fantastic, spellbinding etc. but today I noticed was another day(I’ve had a few) where I had thoughts of ..I don’t know, at first a kind of numbness to it all. Summertime is when flaunting is at its prime, tans are in effect and hot people are swarming everywhere out to claim theirs. I don’t know, I was trying to analyze my thoughts and I noticed after while, it just gets numbing..which is no big deal. I think it’s only human to try and take in so much visual stimuli after a while. The eye gets desensitized in a way. Maybe this is good because you’re not so fixed on external appearances. But maybe not, since the numbness detracts from actually appreciating it. As a side note, I’ve had first hand experience in the industry that(love it or hate it) perpetuates notions of beauty(I’m a high end digital retoucher). I’ve worked in fashion for years on models, taken out wrinkles, shrunken hips, made lips larger, made arms and legs thinner, worked with beautiful women on campaigns, blah blah blah etc. Perhaps my numbness to physical beauty started earlier! Because the city is so drenched in this imagery of the “ideal” beauty..ads, artificiality, etc. I found on days like today, the numbness can turn to sheer annoyance. I’m not angry though. I don’t want to rape anyone(crazy!) I just find that in a crowded city the brain can only process so much..people become sheer numbers( I think this operates in a similar manner nationwide through our absorption of imagery through various media outlets). Beauty then seems to take on the dreary effect of just another tool to “sell,” you something. Within this context and consumeristic standpoint, beauty becomes inverted, turning into the baby with the bath water phenomenon(beauty thrown out into the waters of advertising).
Beauty then can become a kind of weapon( in a certain way) to people who no longer trust each others gaze(out of mistrusting the environment, or simply, and I assume like most people, just too tired to give a shit about the 100th pretty face to walk by). I say weapon, not in a literal sense, but in the sense of it becoming just another thing in your life to wave around to gain power(as in social value) Of course both men and women use it. To make things even more confusing, there’s all this baggage about relating to each other..what should be said to each other or shouldn’t, whats right and wrong..people get their advice from magazines. Men get confused and resort to a kind of desperate primitivism of staring awkwardly or just saying some stupid shit. In guys defense, I would say that wanting to say the right thing at the right time in the right way, with the right body language, is an impossible and pointless aim, yet men everywhere are seeking just that. Its pointless because things have to happen naturally between people..and the likeliness that a natural intimate connection between beautiful strangers to happen in an environment that amplifies the hell out your desires (and creates other twisted ones)and the need to buy, sell, achieve, and conquer will probably be slim for most people wanting something more than a quick fix. But maybe I’m wrong! I would never try to justify anger though..maybe just annoyance from multiple people smugly projecting their external appearance which has lavishly been dipped in commercial brands and enterprises(I love/hate fashion) that some chinese woman slaved to make. On another note, I think if anything though, just by talking with other women, I think more women get angry at beautiful women than men. Its the cattiness..Raaarr!! Overall though, I think we’re naturally drawn to beauty, but it can become less enthralling in the context mentioned. However annoyed I get though I will never stop enjoying the sight of a beautiful woman!..I may just need a break from the city. I read an article that you may love to hate but I felt it shed some interesting light on the situation between men and women in the USA. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/27/opinion/27Paglia.html?_r=0
Sorry so lengthy. Cheers
Ok, I’ll let you do a lengthy one this time. Seemed to be cathartic.
Knowing that plenty of men love ogling lovely ladies, I was surprised to learn that many men become enraged over the same thing. A lot of other women have also been surprised after reading this post.
I agree about the numbness. See this, for instance: Men Aren’t Hard Wired To Find Breasts Attractive https://broadblogs.com/2010/11/04/men-aren%e2%80%99t-hard-wired-to-find-breasts-attractive/
At the same time, reports from Europeans who first came to America found the native women to be very sexual and easily orgasmic. Even though the men and women constantly saw the same men and women over again. (And the breast fetish wasn’t even in effect, yet the men were highly sexual, too.) This was also a highly egalitarian society. That’s probably why it was sex-positive for women. And that is likely why the women were so sexual. Which meant that men got a lot of sex, too.
And thanks for checking in and commenting.
This blog post gave me a whole different perspective as to why some men might rape. I had never thought of the idea that some men could feel rejected just by the way a women looks. While some men might be attracted and admire the way a woman looks, “others found the same visions torturous, as they craved what they couldn’t have.” It is crazy to me how men can feel so possessive towards women. There is never any circumstance in which anyone should ever own another human being. We are all independent beings with our own thoughts and feelings. I liked where it said to treat women as equals for men who still do not understand that we are all equal no matter our gender.
I can understand where both sides are coming from. As a far as myself, I dress for my own self-esteem. I feel beautiful when I dress a certain way, and if I happened to get hollered at, Yay for me, because I’m not the only one who thinks so. I’ll be damned though, if some guy gets mad at me for dressing how I did; I didn’t do it for their sexual pleasure. It’s very interesting that some guys feel this way; it’s not a women’s fault though if a guy can’t control their sexual urges.
In my view point, if some men don’t like pretty women, it is not because that woman is showing up sexy to harass a man it is because men see themselves less than that woman. Let me get more clear, in a situation that a woman seems so sexy and attractive, a man who is attracted to that woman feels that he is loosing control over that woman. As a known fact, in a male dominant society, men always should be in charge but they are loosing their control and domination over that beautiful and sexy lady so it’s obvious why they hate pretty women. I have the same experience however, it might not to be exactly match with the post but I see some similarity. I was meeting a guy for few months. He was good looking and handsome in a very good financial and educational level. After 2-3 months he wanted me to be more closer like a boy friend and girlfriend. We both had 2 weeks vacation separately and we were supposed to talk about ourselves after the vacation. Interestingly, after the vacation he told me that he prefer to move on and say goodbye to me. I accept that but I like to know the reason because everything seems good and he was appreciating to having me all the time. His respond showed me. What he said was that I am a very beautiful, sexy woman who always dress up and take care of herself. And this is because I am so confident and feeling so good about myself. So far so good- but the reason that he couldn’t see me anymore was that because of my strong personality, beautiful and Well managed appearance he is loosing his control over me. He cannot feel that he is a man when he is with me only because I always show up sexy and dress sophisticated. Even though, he was very good looking guy and I felt his manly manner all the time . In my experience, men don’t get violent because of women’s sexy appearance, they get violent because they feel that they are loosing the man- domination sphere and they cannot tolerate women to be in charge. Actually, that is all their mind and thoughts that is not reality. They are handcuff on their own wrong thought.
I don’t know where Kimmel got his idea that men feel entitled to womens bodies. Did he conduct a study that revealed this? How about a link to it so we may evaluate if its application is flawed.
Men don’t feel entitled to womens bodies, we feel desirious for them and have an urge to enjoy them like we are designed to do. Don’t blame men, blame nature.
Kimmel is accurate regarding retaliation, nobody likes being misled or teased. The problem is that women have become conditioned to use the feminine prowess to gain control, and get what they want. The college chaplain is right, men are visually assaulted constantly by women revealing their physique. Society accepts that because it’s not externally violent like a man raping a woman, but it’s a form of psychological torture…look but don’t touch, ignore your natural inclination to procreate. It’s essentially a form of passive aggression.
The only entitlement I’ve witnessed is women feeling it’s their right to dress as revealing as they wish, tease any man they wish, and to use their physique to an advantage. I’ve worked with many women, and my female bosses ignored my complaints about the onslaught of cleavage, (my concern being it promoted an environment where someday someone could say I sexually harrassed her because I inadvertently saw her cleavage), they created the sexually hostile environment, and it’s accepted by the establishment. Why is it okay for women to show their cleavage, bare midriffs and butt cleavage, and wear tightly revealing clothing, yet if a man was to wear tight pants that revealed an outline of his genitals there would an uproar. Women are blind their sexist and harassing behaviors.
Actually, the entitlement of anothers body is the belief of women. They think they can have sex with any man they want, while it’s usually true, that doesn’t make it right. If you want to see a show of anger and resentment, look at a woman who has been rejected by a man, but rather than the violence that’s made out to be the sole domain of men, women retaliate with scorn and sometimes life altering accusations or spiteful falsehoods to hurt their rejector. Yet society accepts these things because…oh, it’s just women being the emotional creatures that they are…and not an outward show of dominance…just a passive agressive double standard.
Women always complain about the sexualizing of female images, but rather than cover up and refuse to be subjected to its societal effects, they are the first to partake so they won’t be left behind, or deemed unattractive by other women. Men don’t facilitate societies sexualization of women, women do by dressing and acting like the women they see in media and entertainment. Little girls want to be like Beyonce, and their mothers are okay with that?! The idols of little girls…Brittany Spears, Miley Cyrus et al. Men aren’t the ones taking their daughters to these concerts, dressing their daughters like vixenish whores, being an example of a dolled-up cleavage baring sex kitten.
Women need to take responsibility for themselves and their gender, and stop placing the blame on men. Women are not victims, their decisions, actions, and constant competitiveness with other women make them co-conspirators.
See his book called Guyland.
I’m sure it’s an exaggeration. Really, rapists feel entitled to women’s bodies, and that is far from all men. Not sure why he put it that way.
As an ethnographer, his research comes mostly from conversations with young men.
This is kind of a weird subject because I feel different women have different reasons for dressing sexy. Even though they all have different reasons I think it’s funny that some guys think that woman laugh behind their back because they can’t “get” what they want and woman know it so they tease them, I’ve never even though about this nor have I ever heard about it. Women dress “sexy” for their self conscious or from pressure of society seems more reasonable to me, this is the same reason why men wear nice clothes or take steroids(which in my opinion is one of the dumbest things men do). One sentence I really liked was “instead of being angry at women who aren’t interested in you, see the beauty of those who are.”
its not when i see all the girls i feel like that,there are humble girls that is pretty when u look at them they smile or they just dont do anything,but there are some pretty girls,when u look at them they give u a look like.ugh disgusting,in their the way the look back at u.u just can feel it,being pretty but totally rude,dimb,backstabbing,maybe the worst kind of attitude,but people will will love her,her family and frens,she will have tonnes of attentions from guys and fans.while people like just getting through the day and surviving is such a big thing.i am ugly i am a orphan,nobody ever loved me,i work hard but nobody appreciate me,i do good things donate blood help blind people,i can never say no when people ask me for help,but it doesnt matter,the pretty girls get everything even though they dont appropriate it.every time i see these kind of girls i feel like want to carve off their face, strip of everything of they have from their comfortable safe zone life,make them feel how i feel,how lonely miserable and full of suffering life is just give them a taste how cruel life can truly be,people that is arguing here,they just dont get it maybe coz they pretty or had a wonderful life,i am not saying all girls r like that,but there are these kind of bitches out there using their pretty face ruining other guys life sucking money and love out of them.life is not fair at all…
I’m sorry that you are so unhappy in your life.
Women can face a double bind – damned if you do, damned if you don’t: in order to be thought attractive women need to be both physically attractive and confident. But then those exact same things anger some men.
Of course, people should be polite to one another. But women may also become fearful when men they don’t know pay a lot of attention to them. So they may be impolite. Or they may just be fearful.
Actually, being ugly isn’t as important as what’s inside of you. Men who aren’t that physically attractive but who are confident can be quite appealing. I don’t know if you have seen Game of Thrones but there is a dwarf who has all the confidence in the world. And he is actually kind of appealing. More importantly, he doesn’t let it wreck his life. And some of the happiest couples I know are people who aren’t very physically attractive on the outside.
I guess I’m saying that instead of getting angry it seems the better thing to do would be to develop yourself and your talents and have small victories that increasingly create confidence.
Likely people write comments on my blog because they want to be heard or vent more than to get advice. So if you think my advice is stupid and unwanted, just ignore it.
Your best to dismiss these type of women. We can never know what causes people, male or female, to act impolitely, but pretty women receive a lot of unwanted attention…they become wearisome so they forget their manners. It’s like being the tallest or fattest person in the room, most everbody notices them and they just want to blend in with the crowd. Sure some of them are just naturally rude, but since you can’t do anything about it, you’re best to dismiss their behavior and consider yourself lucky they’re not interested in you. Imagine if she had shown interest and a relationship developed…the unhappiness you’d have then.
Surely you know the most beautiful women in a room is rarely the prettiest. Like most men on Earth, I like “hot” women, but am more attracted to the gal with the best personality…then get involved with the one who is actually my true complement.
You sound like you’ve had a difficult life, and are unhappy with yourself…I bet you’re not as ugly as you think you are. Regardless, I know a few –ugly– guys…they always have women because they’ve developed confidence. Women feel comfortable with them because these guys are fun to be with and, most importantly, are great listeners who don’t push for a relationship. This gives the women a chance to get to know these guys in a relaxed, non-confrontational way without expectations. Also, many pretty women like men less attractive than themselves, it helps them feel more secure in the relationship…they think their partner is reluctant to cheat or leave her because she’s prettier than the women he’d normally meet.
If I may offer some advice…be active in your interests, be friendly to everyone you meet, have conversations without attaching an outcome to them, practice being a great listener, and just be the best person you can be for yourself. Relax, don’t pressure yourself to meet someone, and like momma always says…be yourself. There’s a woman looking for a guy just like you, so don’t try to be different, otherwise she won’t recognize you when she finds you.
Speaking from a woman’s perspective, this is great advise.
“Why not enjoy beauty in its many forms and see women as people rather than sexy objects. And instead of being angry at women who aren’t interested in you, see the beauty of those who are.”
I’d go so far as to say Men who believe they are entitled [as described above] to Women’s bodies, neither deserve being able to enjoy their beauty, nor being given the opportunity of Women being interested in them. Your nothing special, and you neither deserve sex just because YOU want it, and certainly *not* because you are YOU.
This is a very interesting topic. From my perspective, some men are intimidated by women who show their class through their appearance. Those men will think that they don’t stand a chance to get those “high-class” girls, and this feeling will turned into jealousy and hatred toward the women.
This was a very interesting article. I was under the notion that men loved and always fell for the prettiest and sexiest girl or woman. After reading this, men’s psychology towards attractive women has become clear to me. It seems most men cannot handle rejections well especially from women they are really attracted towards. This leads to a strong yearning for that woman, which then leads to crimes like rape. I also completely agree with the fact “Some men learn that they should have power over women so that when it’s the other way around, they may feel angry and resentful”. Women are still dominated physically, emotionally and mentally by men. This might be because they feel entitled to it. Our culture, society, and values given at home shape our thinking and actions towards the opposite sex. I t is also very true that “most women dress for their own self-esteem”, and “Women feel tremendous pressure to be beautiful because society rewards them”. I used to be one of them. Growing up as what the society calls “ugly duckling”, I was determined to dress up and wear make up just to impress people and show them that I was attractive too. This took a lot of time, effort and money. In the end it was not worth all the trouble because, the people who love and respect you, accept you the way you are. I learnt the hard way that one should not do things to please the society. We should be comfortable in our own skin in order to be happy.
Not sure how often this sort of thing actually leads to rape. Most rapists I’m aware of rape for different reasons. See these posts, for example: (I’ll be adding more.)
Mind of a Rapist: Trying to Bridge a Gap between a Small Self and a Big Man
Rape Epidemic in South Africa. Why?
What Do Rapists Want?
This was very interesting. I had never known some men thought this way. I’ve heard people say “well she asking for it dressing that way”, but never put it together that it’s because men think they’re entitled to women’s bodies. This really has me thinking differently when men makes comments to my friends when we go out. Some men give my friends compliments and some men get extremely angry when they do not want to talk to them. These guys go from being really nice to calling my friends really harsh words. It is sad to think after how hard women try to be equal to men. This is still happening and I don’t think men are even aware that they are thinking this way. I also don’t get how they could even come to the conclusion that women are having more power then them, by dressing up and looking nice.
It’s really too bad that men put themselves through all those machinations about women. Their reasoning that women dress to tease them is sad and has little basis in reality. I believe that the attitude described in the article speaks of feelings of emotional impotence. Why else would a man resort to thoughts of rape just because he thinks a pretty woman looks unattainable? That’s a huge leap in reasoning. These are the desperate thoughts of someone who feels they have no other options. I disagree with Kimmel that “guys believe that they are entitled to women’s bodies, entitled to sex.” I think it’s the very opposite. I think that some men, because of how they were raised, grow up feeling inferior to women and thus frustrated and resentful, regardless of how a woman looks. I believe that the male behavior described in this article has less to do with women and more to do with feelings of powerlessness that begin long before he starts dating women.
Well, Michael Kimmel has spent a large part of his life studying men and masculinity. Perhaps he means that rapists believe that they are entitled to a women’s bodies, entitled to sex. Because rapists definitely do.
This is a pretty interesting thinking. Most of the time, we were told that all men will like pretty women while ignoring all other qualities from that women. I am quite surprised to know some men will actually hate some pretty women. This kind of comment reflects how gender is constructed in our society. Men are taught to be strong and ‘protect’ women while women are taught to be dependent on men, might be not physically, but psychologically. As men need to be superior than women and gain control of them, being too pretty might hurt the self-esteem of men because men might feel they no longer can control women.
INSIGHTFUL there is the growing resentment of women all over the internet. One of the things you failed point out is that porn leads men to believe women want sex with random people. It reduces women to their body parts. With the net full of free porn leading men to believe women are objects here for the pleasure of men walking around in the real world where women actually have their own preferences is confusing. Men who are limited in looks, success and looks can feel accomplished via the beautiful woman on his arm. Other men want his girlfriend wife then he feels good. Now again she is an object here for his own selfish needs. They are shocked when women express any desire other than the one to please them.
Well, I actually did bring it up, but didn’t go into detail.
“Kimmel says the anger comes from men feeling entitled to women’s bodies. And he says that’s not so surprising given all the “come-on” scantily clad images that surround them, whether in mainstream media or porn.”
I’ve gone into more detail on this point in other posts, like these, one of which is in my “top posts” a lot of the time:
Real Men Competing With Porn Stars
Why Don’t Women Like Sex As Much As Men?
We don’t dress the way we do for attention. If I want to dress up it’s because I wanted to. If I feel like going out in public in sweats that’s on me. No one else has to make a comment or like it because I chose to do that. It isn’t to make a statement. It’s because I wanted to go out in sweats. Sometimes I feel comfortable just wearing sweats. That’s no one else’s business but my own. I agree with AB and Julie as well as many other people who had positive things to say. Treat others the way you would like to be treated.
I too, thought this was a very interesting article for many reasons. It doesn’t make much sense to me. However it just means that these specific men who “hate” pretty women are in my own analysis are insecure themselves. So in their own skin they are uncomfortable, and feel threatened by their beauty. I liked your point on how men feel entitled to womens’ bodies, those men need to wake up and smell the roses. As for the women who give in too easy to let these men feel that it is ok for them to give their bodies away, they are not helping the women who are trying to respect themselves. As we know that we are are entitled to our own bodies, anyone should be able to dress and look how they do and feel OK with it. If a man looks dead sexy I’m not going to hate him, that’s just ridiculous.
This article was very interesting to me because I didn’t think being pretty would be intimidating to men. I don’t like the fact that men think that we dress the way we do for them. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to feel pretty because I believe that women are doing it for themselves and I agree that it helps with our own self esteem. Reading this article gave me a different view and a little scoop of what men really think. There are many ways a woman can be attractive not only for what they wear.
I really like this article. I never thought that how women dresses could effect men so much. I would never think that men could think it was personal and that they were trying to taunt men. This article is so interesting. When people had made the argument that women’s clothing provoked them into sexually assaulting them I had always thought they were just making excuses, but now I can see the psychology behind it. This is a very interesting article that looks into the mind of males looking at how women dress. I completely agree that most women dress for their own self esteem. Women like to look beautiful for themselves, but that might come off differently to men.
What’s said in that quote “really pretty and really clean and sexy”?
First, how does the dictionary define “pretty”: “attractive in a delicate way without being truly beautiful or handsome : a pretty little girl with an engaging grin”. “Engaging?” Oh yes, “charming and attractive.” Attracting who? Men of course. There is a sexual allusion there. Normal, the dictionary was very likely written by men!
Let’s try “beautiful”: “pleasing the senses or mind aesthetically.”
There you go, this is what us women want to hear: “You’re beautiful my Darling tonight” (meaning: “I wish I could have you but I respect you”.) So if they don’t like pretty women we don’t care, we are beautiful, we are phenomenal like Maya Angelou says, because African beauties are not pretty but beautiful.
So this guy see it through his androcentric filter. I like her and she should like me but she won’t…What a pessimist! Maybe one day one will like you but not all women have to like you. If you look like on the picture, no chance that we get aroused! I know I like men who are gentle, patient, funny and intelligent. Sorry not any of the above in your picture. And if you “want revenge” you have a problem, man. Do you go to a store and say I want everything for the little money (metaphor, for potential) that I have and if they don’t give me everything, I’ll get my revenge! Kind of selfish compare to the other men as well. There is about enough females for every males, even more females in the society who haven’t cheated with their demographics like China. You’ll find one one day if you don’t end up in jail before (the revenge!).
Don’t think that women dress up nicely only to tease men. A very tiny minority do, those who expect some kind of monetary reward, raise or straight cash. I know that when I dress, the guy I want to please is, before and for all, my mirror. I like my mirror to send me the message: yes, you look fine, good to go and face your daily dose of struggles. We women need some encouragements, not sex all the time. I’ve never been the sexy type anyway, don’t be disappointed!
I believe that women are more concerned about other women’s approval and look more at other women than at men to make sure that they are still in competition, but if I look around me, most girls or women don’t spend that much time thinking about their appearance, or at least it does not show! If men get upset because they can never get the pretty women, they should definitively change target -smart men do- and look at intelligent, witty, funny and women, beautiful from the inside out. Just think about the morning after…
I hate woman that are Beautiful. Why ? Because they ”well not all” walk with their f#cking nose in the air. If i compliment how beautiful they are they roll their eyes and give this look as if to say ”Please in your dreams” and that right there gets so deep under my skin. Here i am giving a clean simple compliment and she gives me an attitude. That sh#t is what burns men up.
What you say makes perfect sense. I’d probably feel the same way if it were reverse.
That said, many women have experience with getting sexually harassed when they DO give a guy some acknowledgment. Some guys think that if a woman looks at him or smiles at him it means she wants sex. And then they start bothering her. So I wouldn’t take it personally. And it doesn’t mean that she thinks she’s too good for you. She’s likely just trying to protect herself since she doesn’t know you and whether you are that type.
So a lot of guys become confused as to why women dress sexy in the first place. I surveyed my students on the topic and will be posting a piece pretty soon.
To the women in this comment section all i have to say is this, it’s not easy walking around in public a young virile man, looking at hot women in the same age range and never ever getting the slightest bit of acknowledgment and when attempting to instigate some getting the cold shoulder or the “why are you even talking to me?” face,
I have to second guess everything i do when i get this reaction but no matter what i do to try and improve myself this is what happens, I’m sure it’s the same with extremely average looking woman trying to talk to good looking guys. it’s not so much a feeling of entitlement or even sexual as it is constantly wanting positive recognition from a person who either treats you like a ghost or a roach standing next to them, not to sound to sensitive and needy, it just gets to me a little.
Stop worrying. It’s probably not about you. Girls are taught to be wary of strangers, and for good reason. It’s much easier to get to know girls that you already know in some way — she’s in a class of yours or in some organization that you both belong to. If she already has some sense of who you are, and that you know her friends, you won’t seem scary.
Plus, girls dress attractively not because they want to meet guys but either because they simply want to dress to societal standards that make them feel good about themselves or because they want to notice that people are noticing them, which makes them feel better about themselves. And all that is because women’s self-esteem tends to be based on how they look. I have critiqued this in other posts but it remains true.
That said, men and women tend to form relationships with men and women who are similar to them in terms of attractiveness.
Also, take a look at this:
Guys in the Friendzone
So it’ll probably take more than just a similarity in looks to get her interested. She’s going to need to feel like, overall, you’re a good match.
This article was interesting and a little surprising to me because I didn’t know that some men felt this way about women who are pretty. I have been told many times by random men that I looked beautiful and I always took it as a compliment and never to my head nor was I trying tease men with the way I dressed. I have my days where I’m in the mood to look nice and my lazy days where I go in my sweats but again that is my personal preference not something I do intentionally. I think men definitely appreciate when they see a woman dressed nice and if they feel it then they can compliment them but that doesn’t give them a right to get mad or angry. I think a lot has to do with confidence and self-esteem and if men and women both have this then they wouldn’t need to try so hard or have these feelings of anger and revenge which I find childish.
I completely agree with Chris JL. Some men definitely have a problem with entitlement. Part of being a healthy, responsible, mature person is accepting that one can’t always have what one wants.
I understand that some women carry themselves in a way that turns you on, but you are responsible for keeping your desires in check. It is OK to think that a woman looks beautiful or sexy, but it is NOT cool to harass her or be disrespectful or threaten her with rape. When I’m minding my own business, I don’t want to be bothered by some dude leering at me or coming into my personal space with rude comments.
And Chris is also 100% correct about the guys who feel entitled to a “perfect” woman when they, themselves are in need of improvement. It is fine to like beautiful women but don’t overlook or belittle the cute/average women around you either. Very few men can “pull” a model type in the real world.
well since we have so many very nasty women that have a very bad attitude problem, that would certainly do it. with so many women out there now that have a high paying job, they really do think that they are all that. many women think that they are so pretty, but the way that they act today who would want them anyway.
@ TheAbsoluteTruth…let’s discuss some of your comments.
Yes, some women do have bad attitudes. So do a lot of men. And as to women with high-paying jobs, is there something wrong with that? I’m not a “career woman” but I respect women who are independent and make their own money. There is nothing wrong with a woman who is successful and can take care of herself, as long as she is kind to people around her.
This is the year 2013 where women can be what they want to be in most parts of the world, except a few places. You seem to be one of those men who doesn’t want to see a woman succeed at anything, especially when it comes to making more money.
You said: “many women think they are so pretty….” There is nothing wrong with a woman having confidence in who she is, as long as she is a good person. I’m not saying women should walk around with a bad attitude but there is nothing wrong with feeling beautiful. I don’t think you should try to make anyone feel bad about being confident and/or having a good job.
But I do agree that some women today behave in very shameful, embarrassing ways. However, I would say that it is because SOCIETY in general has declined in terms of manners. I see people treating one another badly all the time, regardless of gender.
Everyone has their moment (bad attitude) every now and then. Life happens and its human nature. Frustration and annoyance are human feelings that everyone experiences.
Sometimes men perceive women to have bad attitudes just because their advances or compliments aren’t acknowledged. Some men feel that a woman is obligated to entertain him if he pays her the slightest bit of attention.
I’m sure plenty of other ladies have heard the “yo mama ain’t teach you no manners” rant after ignoring some dude’s disrespectful comment or inappropriate gawking.
If your a pretty woman you don’t want to deal with these guys after a long day’s work, or running your errands, or rushing to pick up the little one. Especially if fifteen guys tried to approach you already that same day.
It’s really not personal, people are just preoccupied with life priorities.
It’s not a woman’s fault if she is attractive! And, there is a difference between wearing something a little less revealing than a bikini at the club, and wearing a professional, but well-tailored business suit. Or would men have us all walking in bubble dresses or potato sacks? A woman with a naturally bubble-shaped butt and ample chest can’t be expected to wear a parachute just because she might offend some guy with her curves!
@ Sandy…I agree. Some women certainly do wear very provocative clothes, but there are also women (like me) who can’t hide our curves no matter what we wear.
My daily outfit tends to be a simple shirt showing very little or no cleavage, blue jeans, and flat shoes or shoes with a bit of heel. I don’t have big boobs but you can still see the shape of my body and outline of my curves because hello, I’m female…I don’t show off to attract attention. I simply happen to be somewhat “well-rounded” in certain places.
I rarely wear dresses/skirts but when I do, it’s because I want to feel pretty for MY benefit…not to be eye candy for people around me.
Wow..this article blew away my mind! Now i know and understand situations i encountered in my life and also my sister’s life. I’ve always wanted to know why a guy would feel jealousy or hatred towards a girl and now i never have to wonder again thanks to this article. I think every woman should read this article. As the saying goes; knowledge is power. I will never ever feel frustrated about this topic again or feel guilty for being a woman. If i ever encouter a situation where men are trying to degrade women, i will know because they are insecure and feel powerless. I feel sorry for men who behave like this. Thanks for the article!
This topic just confirmed all the fears I have always had for my younger sister. She is gorgeous and gets attention everywhere she goes. She has had a stalker, men at work hating her for no reason, and dozens of male “friends” that eventually confess their love for her. She may look extremely feminine on the outside, but she’s always had a strong-willed personality. Sometimes I wonder if the same guys who get angry when she doesn’t notice them would get even more angry when they realize doesn’t have a docile “feminine” personality. Would that further drive their desire to have control? Whenever she goes out to clubs I always remind her to be safe; stay in groups and don’t drink too much. Especially because she has a little one tucked in waiting for her return.
@ NenePP…I think that some men would probably be very angry when they realize that not only is she beautiful, but she is also the type who won’t put up with their crap.
I was a very pretty girl when I was young…not gorgeous, but I was pretty and I had a very nice body. I’m shy but I can also be firm when the situation calls for it. Some men would hit on me in very disrespectful ways and then they would get angry when I didn’t respond to it. Some would call me names, they would shout things at me, they would throw stuff, they would spit at me, etc.
You are giving her some very good advice. She needs to be careful. I believe that there are lots of decent men who respect women, but there is always the chance of running into A-holes who have no concept of boundaries and basic respect for others.
I have two sons and we are teaching them that it is OK to notice pretty girls but they also need to be respectful about it and not take rejection personally.
I think my bitterness and distrust in women works for me here. I’ve never gotten mad at a woman for being pretty no more than I’ve gotten mad at a dog for being fluffy.
I find that pretty women are the zenith of self torture for a man that wants a happy relationship. I would prefer and ugly woman with good personality and a kinky streak. We don’t deserve anything but what we earn and women aren’t something you can earn so I’m sure plenty of my gender gets frustrated when their advances get rebuffed. Women be pretty because society says so and men be high in status because society says so. Men who want pretty women should invest in getting rich and powerful or atleast make 70K a year OR….. Find an alternative.
As a male living in today’s society I’m afraid to say I have caught myself falling victim to this way of thinking at one time or another. Whether it be at work or on the street there have been moments where I have noticed an exceptionally beautiful woman and felt a strange twinge of resentment at the thought of her completely ignoring me or even hating me for not being up to what I have made up in my own mind to be her standards of beauty.
Now, I’ve interacted with all types of women and can’t say that I’ve ever noticed a distinct unpleasantness from women who I personally find more attractive than others so any time I feel this irrational resentment building, I’m fortunate enough to be able to analyze these feelings, realize the absurdity of them and quickly squash them. But I’m always left wondering why I felt this way in the first place.
In this post you wrote “Michael Kimmel says the anger comes from men feeling entitled to women’s bodies. And he says that’s not so surprising given all the “come-on” scantily clad images that surround them, whether in mainstream media or porn.” Which reminds me of a quote from the movie Fight Club: “We’ve all been raised on television to believe that one day we’d all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won’t. And we’re slowly learning that fact. And we’re very, very pissed off.”
Could it be then, that men in today’s society are raised with a notion of self entitlement? Does pop culture lead us to believe that we DESERVE fame, fortune, and even women? I don’t know the answers to these questions, but I do know that something needs to change because from the excerpt at the beginning of this post it sounds like some men may try to use those feelings as a justifiable excuse for doing something horrendous.
@ RR…your comment raises some very good points. I like the fact that you admit to having these feelings and try to deal with them in constructive ways.
First, it is important to realize that rejection or being ignored really isn’t about you. Don’t take it personal. It isn’t a reflection on your perceived “failure” as a man or what manhood means in this society (being able to talk to pretty women).
There are plenty of men who reject women on a daily basis. I’ve been rejected, even as an attractive woman. It hurts, but you have to find a way to pick yourself up and move on. Some people will like you and some won’t…that’s life.
You might be looking at a woman and find her beautiful, but if she doesn’t notice you in return? Don’t worry. She might be thinking about other things. It doesn’t mean she hates you or sees you as inferior. And if you come across a woman who is rude to you because of what you look like? Try not to be offended. You’re better off seeking out people who will be attracted to you for who you are.
Admitting that you feel this way sometimes doesn’t make you a bad person. It simply means that you have feelings and you’re human. No one wants to be rejected or ignored. What matters is that you feel secure in yourself and in your manhood.
I think your questions are good ones, too. I think that pop culture, as well as the people we surround ourselves with, have something to do with this. When I was growing up (and I still run into boys/men who think this way), a lot of guys had this notion that they were “entitled” to girls…especially girls who looked a certain way. This mentality is false and it can be very dangerous. I’m not a feminist, but I believe that some men are trained to see women as objects instead of fellow human beings. This prevents them from treating women with fairness and dignity, and it creates a cycle of animosity between the sexes.
I think that sometimes pop culture shows men like Hugh Hefner and Ron Jeremy and that stupid Pick-Up Artist as figures to emulate. Some men look up to these images and think that this is the way to treat women, talk to women, attract women…it’s wrong. I also find it a bit sad because some boys/men probably didn’t have good male role models in their lives and maybe some of them even had abusive mothers, so they come to hate all women. I’ve heard some men reject normal/average women as “fat” and “ugly”, but they themselves are in poor shape. They believe that they deserve a “perfect 10” and they are cruel to any woman who doesn’t fit their notions of beauty. And when porn factors into it (and some rap music videos as well), the line becomes more blurred.
There’s nothing wrong with wanting a beautiful girlfriend/wife and being proud of her beauty, but I think some guys view women as trophies or status symbols that they can show off. And the guys who can’t find the “perfect 10” of their dreams will often bitterly complain that there are no good women around, when that isn’t true…it’s just that maybe the good women don’t look like models and actresses, they look like the girl next door. So that is where the sense of entitlement comes into play, IMO. We can’t always have what we want in life but some people can’t (and won’t) accept that.
I think that guys make themselves misogynists, it’s not something they were born with. All begins with having a narrow way of thinking, only to prove how masculine you are, thus comes inability to think abstract about beautiful lady as a piece of art.
Second of all, self-esteem of those angry guys is low, which they could feed only with their the most masculine part of a body.
I feel sorry for those men, who instead of increasing their self-esteem in some other way then sex, and feel confident about themselves in spite of sexy ladies, who probably were mean to them in a night club or a bar, and at the end hurt their men’s ego, which made them women-haters.
In this article men described as sexual maniacs, whom every lady needs to watch out, because these men feel entitled to women’s body, and if she will not give them what they want, they will think about raping her, only because they think that ladies are “playing games” with them.
As a lady I like to dress for myself, I like to feel good in a new fashionable clothes, and I know that other women do the same, most of the time women compete with each other, and when we want to, we will dress and act in a special way to a desired men, if we want one.
Thanks to this article, now I know about presence of some weird guys, who become angry, because my appearance makes them turned on, and only because I do not feel the same way about them, they get mad.
I actually understand them, and will be twice careful with my dress code and body language, in order do not offend anybody.
For sure man aren’t naturally misogynistic. And fortunately only some of them learn to hate pretty women.
Most women I know don’t dress to be sexy for men. They dress for comfort and general neatness and attractiveness. These men who look at us with the troughs that we are dressing for them have serious narcissistic issues. How did they come to believe that everything centers around them, including even how other human beings dress? We need to examine how they came to see the world this way and address that underlying issue. Do they also want to physically harm employers who won’t hire them or neighbors with more belongings?
Saw this on Yahoo News today:
“Irresistible’ Workers Can Be Fired”
Unbelievable. Thanks for sharing.
I hate to say this, but I think men are being forced to evolve out of the whole “I’m under a woman’s power because of how she looks” victimization they lay claim to. (and yes, I know women work this program to death and take advantage at the same time they bitch about it) It doesn’t help that our media and porn compounds this over and over, and twists what might have been a natural urge of men to notice a woman into a compulsion that harms both them and women (and yes, we women have our own compulsions programmed into us by the media we have to break out of too). I can wear a burlap sack and go to the store and will find some guy staring at my boobs that I thought were hidden. I think it’s an epidemic, personally. Porn and the media is poisoning relationships between men and women in this country on both sides.
As a woman, if I perceive something has “power” over me, I know this is an illusion, and I will change myself or my belief system and habits so it no longer has power, whether it be an addiction, an interaction, etc. I did this with men. Men can do it with women if they choose. They are not victims of us (just as we don’t have to be victims of theirs)
Men have chosen over thousands of years to soley consider women by the physical, and now they are paying the price for it. They are visual drug addicts on a mass level, addicted to seeing a female image that does not love them and to have that instead of intimacy and are being asked to see into women and who they are instead of just their bodies. They will keep experiencing predatory women who will use their looks to in turn use the men in this regard until they wake up. The pendulum always swings the other way (and that goes for the ladies too who also indulge in the victimization programming.)
I think a big factor is that men are programmed (from my observation) to ignore their own heart and feelings constantly. This means in general, they cannot respect the hearts and feelings of their mates. Maybe if they stopped indulging in the high they get in looking at the female image and look into their hearts they could heal some of the hurt their and improve their relationships with women and upgrade the kind of woman they attract into their lives.
Yes, it’s true that men don’t have to live with this sort of addiction. I can’t tolerate ogling men, and have only been with 4 who behaved that way. I broke up with each of them. One decided he wanted me more than ogling that didn’t really bring satisfaction. So yes, they can change.
Thanks for sharing that, that’s one of my biggest issues I am working through right now about relationships, and why I’m not in one. It’s hopeful, thank you.
When people perceive a woman as being physically “gorgeous” (by conventional societal standards), it really doesn’t matter how you dress. You can be covered up and people can still admire you facial features, or the shape of your frame (even in a turtle neck and long skirt), or your long healthy skin and thick shiny mane.
For many girls, sexual advances from men begin as early as 12 years old. This is the age when myself, and other women I know experienced getting hit on by a “significantly older” man for the first time. Absolutely disgusting!
Getting an enormous amount of male attention is extremely uncomfortable and not has great as someone might imagine. Such women cannot go to the market without being approached, experience gawking in the workplace, being seen as prey at the gym, or being approached and receiving inappropriate comments if front of their own children. Not all men do this of course, but quite a handful do in everyone of these scenarios. The number of encounters add up. It gets very tiring, and eventually you just want to go on with your day without being bothered in such a way.
Even the kindest “no thank you” enrages those men.
Living in this world as a woman is DANGEROUS. Despite what others might think, this includes the western world. I say dangerous because many times, people looking in from the outside blame the woman for the man’s disgusting behavior — thinking that she must have done something to “provoke” him. Many beautiful women live in fear, while others in society believe that these same women “have it easy.” I carry mace in my purse. I’ve purchased a small handgun that I kept in my home for protection, and I’ve made it a habit to have my car keys in hand before stepping out into any parking lot. Not to mention the four locks on my front and the three on my back door.
I never go out to any social place alone…ever! My cousin was one of these beautiful women and she was raped, drenched in gasoline, burned and dumped in a parking lot of abandoned cars after rejecting a bouncer’s advances at a night club. Murdered at 23 years old. She went out alone, and the bouncer followed her out to her car at the end of the night. The bouncer was convicted, but only given 10 years in jail with the possibility of probation in 7 years (because he turned himself in). He stated that because she attended the club alone and dressed provocatively, she “wanted it.” He did eight years and now walks the streets freely.
Women who are considered “gorgeous” don’t reject men because they are on some power trip. They reject men because they either:
— Already have a boyfriend
— Not interested in meeting ANYONE new at the moment
— Already had 50 others guys hit on them earlier that day
— They are out spending quality girl time with friends they haven’t seen in a while
— Might be emotionally unavailable (getting over a break up)
— Visiting from outside of town
…And the possible reasons (that have nothing to do with the man) are limitless!
Those types of men that are described in the study, and a few who have responded on this forum are seriously mentally ill.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I’m so sorry to hear about your cousin. So sad that women so often live in fear, and are blamed for bad treatment of them.
“And instead of being angry at women who aren’t interested in you, see the beauty of those who are.”
For this brilliant piece of advice to be useful, there would have to exist, for every man, a woman who sees beauty in a given man. First of all, there is not one man for every woman, though the ratio is approximately 1:1. Second of all, the sad reality is that some men (and women) have a really hard time attracting mates. It’s cruel, but nature takes a shotgun approach. You can’t produce successes without ending up with some defective byproducts too. Those who pass quality control propagate, while the defects are left behind (as they should be).
I see a lot of parallels between the plight of these rejects and the five stages of loss. Except to these lonely types, the loss is a chance at experiencing a happiness that most everyone else in the population experiences. Much of childhood is spent in denial, and then most of life before 30 is spent in anger and bargaining. Then comes depression and acceptance.
If what you say is true there would be no more “defects” now because they would have stopped reproducing.
I know some amazing, and happily married, people who are not anywhere near what our culture deems “attractive.” But they look for other qualities and are some of the happiest people I know.
Kids with unattractive qualities can be born to perfectly normal parents. Unattractive qualities can also be nurtured.
No Jakes, the only thing that is needed is that men see the beauty in themselves, then they will draw in the women who do. Men don’t feel rejected because of women spurning their advances, it’s because the spurning confirms what they secretly think about themselves. The inner attracts the outer.
“Those who pass quality control propagate, while the defects are left behind”
…to propagate with others who failed quality control.
Physical and mental defects don’t keep most people from procreating. Neither does ugliness, they just find someone whose equally ugly…have sex and birth a swan.
This can be both metaphorically and literally true. I know a fairly “ugly” couple that have a swan of a marriage — just an amazing marriage. And their daughter is good-looking, too!
If your idea of love and attraction is “getting” a pretty object to do what you want with, then you have some serious problems. Unfortunately, our culture raises males to think exactly that way and to also believe that they have greater value than females. So when you see your ideal Barbie Doll and can’t have her even though you are quite sure that she’s inferior to you, well, if course you are frustrated!
Sadly, women also buy into this, turning themselves into sex toys and decorations because this is the path of greatest reward, in the short term.
Just another example of men believing women should be punished for their own bad deeds (aka sexual harassment). Keep externalizing that blame, sociopaths. Society encourages it after all….
“Too provocatively” what the heck does that mean? I have been hit on by men I don’t know and had to listen to my share of cat calls. I don’t dress provocatively unless you think a skirt and blouse is provocative? Why can’t men behave like gentleman? Why do men think they have the right to be degrading and demeaning to women because they decide she is dressed “too provocatively.” It’s just an excuse for men to behave badly. Thank goodness most men are not animals and learn how to treat women with respect, decency and dignity.
It’s foolish for women to dress “too provactively” if they don’t want to be hit on by men they don’t know, or they don’t want to receive powerful stares or hear cat calls. To hell with what society “supposedly” tells women about the way they should look. Women only need to be attractive to the one man they want to sleep with, not to millions of men they don’t want to sleep with.
Women need to make sure they don’t dress in a manner that attracts unwanted attention. There’s a reason I don’t go swimming in the ocean with a bucket of blood. I don’t want to attract sharks.
Women need to realize that the world around them is a glorified mens’ prison. Most men outside of prison are only a little bit more civilized than most men inside prison. Men on the outside have almost identical sexual wiring to men on the inside. Many incarcerated men will be let loose back into society. With that in mind, women should dress and act in a manner that doesn’t stir the inmates’ powerful sexual instincts.
Thanks for providing another example to support the topic of this post.
Actually, regardless of how women dress, men can behave perfectly civilly and politely. Most do!
Victim blamer extraordinaire, here.
I understand your reasoning, I have to keep this in mind when I am a woman and I go out somewhere about my dress, and I am someone who loves to dress sexy. I consider the amount of attention I am ready to handle that night, and that determines how I dress. I do believe women have a responsibility with their sexual display that they have not been held accountable for due to slut shaming and rape blaming being foisted on them instead.
So what do you do then if you only dress sexy for your man, and when you guys go out he’s constantly scoping out other females? I’d say most women decide to go ahead and dress how they want because they will lose either way. Perhaps men feel it is a lose lose situation for themselves also.
You men are going to have to decide that you don’t want to be ruled by your dick and adapt accordingly if it is so awful for you. Just as I have to decide when I go out how I’m going to dress. We’re being forced to evolve into higher beings whether we want to or not.
Your never going to when over with that argument but I do have to say this. I know what you mean. We are in a prison but its one we built ourselves and gave women the key. My suggestion is remember this, no matter how pretty she is for the right motivation she can ruin your life and not think twice.
Oh, Nietzche…you are so messed up I dont think you can be helped. I was on date not long ago with what I thought was a great guy, really interested in him. Halfway through dinner, his misogyny slipped out..started telling me how hard dating was because girls, pretty girls are impossible etc. About 10 min later the date was over, I walked out. You are portraying the exact attributes that women are taught to avoid. If you went you a shrink and said you felt extreme anger toward beautiful women, they would book you for a years session. The fact that you feel extremely angry about women and admit this already makes you very very dangerous. Most guys I know would even avoid you. Remember Ted Bundy felt the same way after being rejected……If a guy gives off this vibe Im outta there soooo damn fast. You said you feel denied, well no one likes rejection, no one but its something that you need to deal with in a healthy way or you are screwed. The most sickening crap is listening to a whiny adult man bitching that pretty girls dont want him. Wow how attractive! First you stated you dont know what women want (clearly) then you are certain we want a rich man(garbage) Ive never dated a guy with money, I have money. Thats an excuse guys use for why women dont like them…oh Im not tall enough, they only like rich guys. Actually Sweetie what we want is a guy who isnt a P—- (Rhymes with Wussy) and you are a classic example. Grow some balls, grow up, quite bitchin and making excuses act like a normal human being and a nice girl might just come your way otherwise you are dying alone, friend….signed The Woman of Earth
Well, whats ironic about this is if a man feels very entitled to a womans body, enough to assault her, he will likely end up in prison trying to desperately defend his own body against several large men who also feel entitled….something to think about. Also as a young woman, 95% of what I do in a day has nothing to do with men. The fact is woman are here for their own reasons, we are not obligated to make a man feel big, special, strong, worthy or desired. Its simply not our job. Hopefully a guy is not so paranoid that he believes woman are mocking him with their beauty, most likely he never crossed their minds. I only care if the one man I desire desires me back. I really could not give a damn if any other man thinks Im pretty or not. When a random guy says”you are pretty” i say thanks and go about my business but i often get the feeling that the compliment was given with an expectation that i now owe something. If thats the case, hey feel free to not give the compliment. I didnt really need it to tell you the truth. Also not being able to tell the difference between a paid porn actress and an average woman on the streets is sad, really sad. If a guy is hostile to a well dressed pretty girl, feeling frustrated and powerless there are therapists to talk to regarding what ones mother might have done to screw you up.
I just stumbled onto this blog. Like many women, I am trying to understand why some men seem to really hate women. I noticed many comments circling the issue of how a woman dresses. But what about women in the military? They are dressed exactly as men soldiers but they are being sexually harassed, assaulted and raped in huge numbers while serving and defending our country. (Check out the The Invisible War) And the threat of violence and rape is a terrifying daily reality that all women have to live with (whether they want to admit it or not). It influences what we feel safe to do, where we can safely go, who we feel safe to interact with. (A daily reality that most men I’ve know have no appreciation or understanding of)
There is clearly something deeply wrong here.
Is it because many men are obsessed with power and position? Is it because many men equate love and sex with domination and aggression instead of seeing intimacy as way to show how much you care about someone? Is it because men’s minds are polluted with images of aggressive impersonal sex (pornography)-which render many males unable to relate REAL women?
Many men seem to harbor a seething hostility toward women, even total strangers. Throughout my life I have been on the receiving end of this (rude, disrespectful comments, groping and grabbing, out of proportion angry reactions to my rejections -only justifying my gut reaction to these men that are unstable and/or aggressive) I have also seen it happening to other women
And it seems a high number of men I have had dates with turned out to be misogynists.
I am not a beautiful woman. I am average looking and I usually dress conservatively. I am intelligent, honest and straightforward. Not qualities that have been valued by the men I have dated. Now that I am 45 years old I am generally overlooked by men of all ages. I have never been married. I have grown tired of trying to find a man who accepts me as an equal human being, and not somehow inferior to him. I have grown cynical.
Our society is very obsessed with youth and beauty, and has set an impossible standard for anyone to live up to. And, overall, there is a pervasive notion that the default human being is a white, heterosexual male and everybody else is somehow an inferior second to that.
All this stuff about how much power a woman has over a man seems like a bullsh*t fairytale to me. I have never had any power over any man in my life. It seems quite the other way around. That must be reserved for only the most beautiful.
I know I am off topic from the original blog but I felt I had to respond somehow to all the commentary I read.
And all you men out there, before you get intimidated, resentful and angry with some woman because she doesn’t respond to you the way you wanted her to, think about this:
When a man goes on a date or meets a new woman, what is his greatest fears. that she will reject him or humiliate him. But when a woman goes on a date or meets a new man, what are her greatest fears, that he will become violent, beat her, rape her and kill her.
I would say that is a BIG difference.
Thank you for offering your perspective.
It’s a big topic, and I tend to deal with it in 500-word chunks at a time, so here are some posts for your perusal:
Mind of a Rapist: Trying to Bridge a Gap between a Small Self and a Big Man
Rape Epidemic in South Africa. Why?
Military Rape: Assailants Promoted or Wrist-Slapped. Why?
Here’s one by one of my male students:
Real Men Don’t Beat, Rape Women
Raping, Shaming Girls to Impress Guys
(see my response to the first comment here — the latter part of it)
It’s Ok To Be A Tomboy But Not A Sissy. Why?
Hope this helps.
Many men who cant get the attention of a beautiful girl do get upset, and in order to release their anger they may try to harm that person. Men should not get angry if a pretty women does not pay any attention to them, they should learn to control their anger and also realize that there might be another women out there who is more than happy to talk to them. A beautiful women’s intentions are not to make men feel angry, but her real intentions are to be able to dress up and look good for herself. I love to dress well and show a little when I go out, but to me is not to grab any once’s attention or create anger, it is to show the world that I am confident about my looks. Men that cant tolerate the beautiful looks of a women is because they lack confidence and have a low self esteem.
People, maybe the hot girl already has a boyfriend!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe it’s not even about the guy, think about it, if she’s so hot, it’s not a surprise she would have a bf already. Please don’t take it so personally.
I’ve been on the receiving end of this “hate” and it’s just childish and spiteful.
I have enjoyed this post and some of the informative follow-up from the author. I find the comments from poster Lynn to be particularly intelligent, because that person has listened to some arguments, done some research and changed perspectives because of it. A few of the other people who disagree with the article have lost credibility with me by trying too hard to defend their every little phrase or idea, never backing down once, thinking that’s the only way to be “right” in the end. Still more have taken the article personally. To these people, I would like to point out that the sociologist who researched and wrote the article may just have something to teach us– perhaps not about you, personally, but about our culture and some of the trends in it. If you are not part of that trend, you would most likely be part of the voice against it. And some of us found the article because we have already noticed the trend (men resenting attractive women) and have searched for studies or insight into it. Accordingly, our minds will not likely be changed by someone who hates the idea in the article and is hell-bent on declaring it as a load of bull– angrily– while appearing to take it kind of personally. Rather, if someone has a sympathetic and reasoned argument that points out some of the truths but argues respectfully against some of the other parts of the article, such a person might win someone over to his side, Or you could just stubbornly post your prejudices, defend them, and use the forum to convince all these anonymous strangers that you, personally, are an awesome dude and no woman will ever control you with her evil sultry looks. But while you’re at it, you might throw in some kind of statement that all women are exactly the same, differing only in looks. Unless you can get people to believe that, your entire argument will fail and you’ll end up painfully debating every tiny point to save your ego which will start to look smaller and smaller to your readers as you proceed. Just some pointers for some of you who appeared to need some help. Again, great article.
Beauty makes me extremely angry, so much that I can’t stand to look at beautiful women in the street. But I don’t feel entitled to any woman, just a woman, just one. A good match for me, not exceptionally pretty or sexy. But in my perception I am denied that reasonable request, experience tells me that woman wouldn’t want me. She’d want somebody taller, richer, more muscular, more handsome, more whatever it is that women want.
However, women seem very comfortable using their looks to get attention, ego boosts and try to take advantage of my interest. However, if I attempted to compliment them I could be a creep, even a potential rapist. So I see them as manipulative, selfish people who callously exploit an instinctive drive that I cannot stop. Every image of a beautiful woman says “I let you see, I know what you want, but you can’t have”.
If I was richer I would almost certainly get a woman. There’s tons of evidence that women are attracted to rich men and always have been. But then I would know they were interested in the money, not me. So I would want anything to do with them, prostitutes are not my thing. Society views that as failure, especially women. As much as I want one I hate women for their manipulation.
I generally don’t post misogynpnistic comments, but given that this is an example of what I wrote about, and since it includes a sense of being heart-felt, and not pure vitriol, I will.
Things to consider:
Did you see the response above from the man who hated a beautiful woman, only to learn she was attracted to him?
My guess is your attitude is your major roadblock. Men don’t have to have money or be super attractive to get a woman.
Many women are attracted to confident, insightful men whose positive emotions are not all bottled up and who care about the woman. Why don’t you try working on that?
Why don’t I work on that? You ask, assuming the fault is me, that I need to change, that I’m not good enough. I’m attracted to insightful, positive women who care about men. There are a few out there, I’m going to find one eventually.
In fact, men do have to be either attractive or have money to get a woman. Most men will say the same thing, that’s because they have real world experience of dating women. Women who says this is not the case are viewing from an ivory tower, they are talking about their own idealised notion of how they behave. Women do not date women. Contrary to the notion of an angry male, I get a decent amount of dates. They haven’t progressed to relationships in the last few years because of money. However, that’s changing now and I know that the women I meet (who don’t care about money) will suddenly begin to want a relationship.
The man who was attractive to a beautiful woman demonstrates another interesting observation, women appear to attracted to men who don’t like them. They find the traits that go with anger attractive. I have been surprised about how my own anger has made me more attractive to the opposite sex. In effect, women encourage anger in men, seeing it as powerful, confident, aggressive, the ‘strong silent type’. This has been difficult for me, I like women and I used to be friendly to them. But I’ve learned that women don’t like those things which just adds to my anger.
Thank you for posting my comment, as you say, it is heartfelt. I don’t like that I’m angry, I don’t enjoy it and I don’t want to stay this way. But I can’t believe things that don’t match my experiences.
I have been attracted to men who aren’t real attractive and who don’t have money. So have my friends. Their confidence and great personality were alluring.
Look around and you’ll see plenty of married men who are neither really attractive nor rich.
If your hostility is working so well, why are you complaining? Sounds like it’s a great chick-magnet.
I would never be attracted to anyone with your hostile attitude.
If you think the problem is with everyone else, fine, stay the same.
I remember reading a book called “As a man thinketh, it will be” or something like that. I read this when I was about 15 yrs old. I have been a Psych nurse, cardiac nurse, respiratory specialist nurse, orthopedic-surgical nurse and Medical-surgical nurse (25 yrs full-time) and Preschool Teacher (15 yrs). I say this only to try to let anyone out there know that I am totally concerned with human beings. Not that anyone would want advice, but if there is even one that would, this is why I write. Try to erase our own assumptions, replace them with a brand new perspective. It is more true that all women feel the same as you, they are just looking to be known as the person they are…the rest is craziness.
Oh goodness sake, no women I have ever talked with match up with what assumptions some posts I have read here. We will find that what we think is what we get.
You are just repeating the same anecdotal evidence, it means nothing. “I asked my friends” will lead to your friends telling you what they think, not what they actually do. If you are married or dating, does that man earn less than you? Is he shorter than you? Does your choices factually support the ideas you have?
Despite you trying to invalidate my reasoning by suggesting that I’m not attractive, I do get a decent amount of dates. As I said, they don’t progress because of money. I am confident and have plenty of personality. In fact the women I date are usually disappointing in those respects. They seem to think I’m going to throw money at them just because they are female and pay attention. As if they don’t need to have confidence and personality.
This assumption comes through in your responses. You tell me to work on myself, that I’m not positive and don’t care about women. There’s no basis for that, none of it matches me in anyway, its entirely prejudice or your part. But that’s how it works. You want the conversation to be about criticising me, rather than examining your own biases honestly.
My point is that not all women behave the way you say they do.
And I didn’t have to ask my friends, I observe their behavior. Many married men who are neither rich nor handsome. The man I married was neither rich nor handsome when I married him. (Over time he’s earned a lot of money, which was a surprise to both of us.) I was drawn to him because of who he is inside. He’s a very good man.
As I said, look around and you’ll see plenty of married men who are neither rich nor handsome.
YOU’RE the one who said women go for that type and that’s why you can’t get them, not me. The only thing that is obvious by what you write is that you have a lot of hostility toward women. I’m sure that anyone reading your comments would pick up on that, even if you think they won’t. That will be a huge turn-off.
I’ve had my say but it’s not important to me to convince you of anything. I’m hoping to help but if it’s not helpful, and you believe you’re not hostle, then go your own way and do and see things however you want.
If you want to keep telling me I’m wrong, go ahead.
Btw, here’s a link to a man who I’d be very interested in if I were single. He’s on a police officer’s salary so not wealthy. Unsure what he looks like: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/nypd-boots-homeless-man-photo-145219581.html
I am considered a beautiful woman and have always paid my own way in a relationship for the most part. I have never dated a man for money nor married one. On the other hand, when I was younger I did play games with my beauty and see what kind of supposed “power” I had over men.
My conclusion was that it was none, the men who appreciate me for my beauty usually only see me as a sex object, and care for nothing else. They didn’t care about my feelings, They don’t care that I have a great heart, that I am extremely intelligent or loving. I don’t flirt with them, I don’t use them to buy me things, I’m honest with them and let them know I am not interested right away – and guess what, it seems that they hate my honesty and would rather have the illusion and to be used by me instead.
It’s so interesting that men can compartmentalize many things, but their attraction to beautiful women is the one thing they have a one track mind about. Once you are in the sex object zone with a man forget about it, it’s like being in the “friends” zone with women – you are never going to come out and they are never going to see you as a person.
Anyway, my point is that it goes both ways for men and women.
P.S. – if I was a rich woman, I’d have no problem supporting my man.
Maybe if you loved and valued yourself, and loved who you are as a man you would find that woman. It doesn’t seem that any of us get out of this little fact about the opposite sex, whether they are male or female. We all have to come to terms with who we are.
I think that in order to get a quality mate one has to become a quality person. I’m not just telling you this, but myself as well. It would be really easy for me to list all the things I hate about men just as you do, but the bottom line is that I am the common factor in all the situations and need to heal and change myself, and so are you in your experiences with women.
This is a very interesting topic that resonates with me, and I;m sure many other girls who take public modes of transportation. As a young girl, alone on the bus, especially at night, it is not a rare happening that a strange older man might come talk to you. It always strikes me odd, who are these guys and where were they taught that hitting on a young girl on the bus was a good way to get some tail. Minding my own safety, I often ignore them as best I can. Their reaction is often that of anger. It is as if some men believe that, as a woman, I MUST make conversation with them and often act in disbelief when I choose not to do so. Like Kimmel stated, it is as if some men see women as objects for their own pleasure and when one chooses not to stroke their ego, so to say, they react furiously. It is not flattering to be hit on by an old man, no matter how one looks or is dressed like. It is usually annoying, scary or a combination of both. The preconceived notion that the ‘fairer’ sex is here to please men is absurd.
Many years ago aboard a greyhound when I was in my 20s a teenaged girl came and sat next to me. She struck up a conversation. After a while she leaned over against me, asked me to put my arm around her. In a few minutes she moved my hand from her waist to her breast. Not sure that this was what she really wanted, I let my hand slip back to her waist. Soon she moved it back to her breast and then appeared to fall asleep.
She was on my left next to the aisle. My wallet was in my right front pocket, so was proof against her picking it. In a couple of hours she arrived at her stop and got off. Before leaving, she asked me for my address so that she could come visit. I gave her a fake name and address as I didn’t trust what she was up to.
A mistake? I’ll never know. The point is that men get hit on, too.
It is the problem of men over fifty and really pretty, young looking 30-somethings who still look like a teenager. Why would they wanna choose an old guy like him? Then he degrades her and denigrates her and takes the piss out of her for being youthful and beautiful?
Unfortunately in our society women are still thought of as less equal, even by intellectual people. One of my friends is a brilliant mathematician and physicist and he is very analytical about everything but when it comes to evaluating woman he sais that the main quality of woman is her beaity and intelligence is not important. He also sais that all the intelligent women that he have known throughout his life are not beautiful and thus not attractive and therefore will never be his girlfriends. I think that means that women should still fight for their rights as the current situation is immoral.
Thanks. I agree. We’d all be better off.
You perfectly described the reality. I belive that about 1/3 of men in the Western world experience this type of hatred. Until recently I hated one gorgeous girl, I think she is the most beautiful woman ever. I had hated her until she approached me and said that she liked me. She even said that I was physically attractive. As silly as it sounds, she didn’t become my girlfriend. I was extremely confused. Firstly, I couldn’t even believe she had approached me, secondly, I felt I was guilty towards her of hating her, thirdly, I felt that she was smarter than me. So in the end I very very politely rejected her. I still feel really stupid and guilty.
Pretty sad, huh?
Forestrulez, i think you need to differentiate between a crush and love.
It just occured to me how this Blog is so helpful to some men & women that are looking for understanding of each other. It is great to read about people’s ideas, and how some find insights. I am 65 yrs. old and realize that if I could have read this material when I was young, it could have assisted me in understanding way sooner (which would have helped). I also want to thank you for your responses to me, in an earlier (last year) comment and resources offered about how one dressed (or dresses) is not an invitation for rape. Because of the professionalism in the guidance of this blog, I am impressed. Also, I would like to discover whether our public school system includes (in their sex education classes) allowing young people to freely express their thoughts, and communicate with each other (particulary about their own impressions, etc).
Glad to be helpful.
Not surprisingly, I let students in my classes talk about anything. And let them know they can disagree with me or anyone else in the class so long as they do so respectufully.
My own experience in public schools was pretty open.
Anyone else can let us know their experience.
>> I’m saying you shouldn’t hate pretty women. Why would the feelings you describe naturally lead to hatred?
The point I was making was not about merely pretty women, it was about provocatively dressed women, and this is the same point that Kimmel makes too. A woman can be pretty and not be provocative, of course.
I do accept your point that the women in tribal cultures seem to be immodest without looking provocative to males. Indeed, it seems that the tension is created at least partly by conflicting values of the “modesty plus striptease” culture that we live in. Another part of the tension may be because despite the “striptease” part of our culture the women are not as sexually open in their behavior as the women in some tribal cultures are.
I think however that you are wrong in not accepting that girls naturally want to look sexy and enhance their sexual appeal to guys, or that it somehow inhibits sexual equality. For example, even in the sexually egalitarian and matrilineal Trobriander society, girls, for all their nakedness, use adornments and oils to enhance their sexual appeal. In fact, both sexes do it. So it appears that the path to the sexual egalitarianism does not go through girls abandoning their inclination to look sexy.
Then I don’t see why anyone should hate provocatively dressed women.
I didn’t mean to say that women have no natural inclination to want to attract the opposite sex. But that inclination is placed on steroids when your self-worth is also dependent upon it.
Looking sexy isn’t the problem. Being obsessed with looks, and being a sex object is. See:
Anything Good About Being A Sex Object?
For more on how objectification disempowers women see (if interested):
Does Sexual Objectification Lead to Bad Sex?
Miss Representation: Girls are Pretty, Boys Are Powerful
Miss Representation: How I Look Is What Matters
Scrutinizing My Body Takes All My Time
Self-Esteem Falls with Rise in Power? Blame Beauty Ideals
You insinuations that men generally want to control women through sexual repression is quite insulting to men really. Yes we may like to look at a women’s body but the type of guy you are describing are in the extreme minority of men. Women basing their self worth on looks is a similar problem to how many men place their self worth on their professions or how much money and property they own…because in the harsh game of natural selection (dating), these things matter if you want to attract your ideal man or women today. The fact is men today are quite self conscience of their socioeconomic situation almost to the point of many having low self esteem because the girl they have fallen in love hasnt even given them a chance because they worked in some low end job.
See my comment policy. If you want me to read what you say you’ll need to be more succinct. And you must always be respectful. Above is what I managed to get through.
You misread me. Never said all men want to repress women. Only those who try to control women in some way; their sexuality, the way they dress, or whatever. Not all men do that. None of my friends, for instance.
I agree that women basing their self worth on looks is a similar problem and have written extensively on that. Women learn from about middle-school on that their worth is based on their looks. Where they fit in the hierarchy depends on their looks. Many think they’re doing it to get guys, but it often happens the other way around: women having sex with men hoping to feel beautiful. I urge women to base their self-esteem on much broader and deeper criteria. See tomorrow’s post, for example.
Women preferring rich men is due to patriarchy, which I also critique. Under patriarchy men are expected to support women and to be similar or higher in status. I agree it sucks.
Explain to me how patriarchy is the reason for female hypergamy? It would be much appreciated.
This happens when women internalize patriarchy and come to feel they are, and should be, lesser than men. So they feel uncomfortable taking being higher than him economically, or any other way. Men feel a similar discomfort with marrying up.
Otherwise, you send way to many comments. They’d take all my time. I have other things to do. So I will not be responding to them. Again, see comment policy.
In response to your statement to wario: The function of patriarchy i think was to control property and political power in the royalty/Aristocracy class and is not related to women preference of richer men in today’s society. Your inference assumed that women in question where in tougher lower socio economic class and as a result of their gender they could not accumulate wealth themselves and thus had to marry into wealth. This is not the 18th century, today we are seeing professional women who would earn in the hundred of thousands expressing a need to marry up.(http://www.asylum.com/2011/01/07/women-are-increasingly-marrying-up/).
This is much deeper than a cultural phenomena. As a clinical psychologist, ive seen many of my girl friends express their disdain for men who occupy lower income ladders than themselves and even “nice guys”. Though i cannot draw a conclusion on a few of my female friends dating preference, throughout my time at university in Australia i have seen too many women who were in law, medicine, MBA’s reject those who were seen as economically “inferior”. It became increasingly clear that this was a pattern among professional women. Then i wondered, what is with this fascination with having a man who made more than these women, who was tall and smarter. I thought, these women wanted real equality and also the fact that they occupied higher incomes than 90 percent of men didnt help either. These women continued with their sexual pursuits to find the right man. Today they are washed up thirty somethings year olds who till today cannot find a man who fit their unrealistic expectations. They would sometimes ask “where have all the good men gone”. Ive realised something, hypergamy is alive and well today as it was a thousand years ago with implications for feminism being far reaching. It seems like feminism has although focused on the oppressive male gender, it has failed to focus on the flaws of the very gender they represent. Today women will occupy 60 percent of those in higher education yet their is still an expectation that their husbands should make more than them. A forbes article elucidate on this phenomenon(http://www.forbes.com/sites/larissafaw/2012/12/05/why-are-so-many-professional-millennial-women-unable-to-find-dateable-men/). Given your specialty in sociology and gender studies Broadblogs, do you think feminism should redirect its attention towards defeating Hypergamy and the utility of men or maintain the status quo. Sorry my English is bad, it is my second language. Thank you
As I explained below (or above?):
Hypergamy happens when women internalize patriarchy and come to feel they are, and should be, lesser than men. So they feel uncomfortable taking being higher than him economically, or any other way. Men feel a similar discomfort with marrying up.
Otherwise, you send way to many comments. They’d take all my time. I have other things to do. So I will not be responding to them. Again, see comment policy.
Women who are both feminist and well-to-do marry whomever they wish.
Patriarchy these days is actually defined as male rule and valuing men over women. In it’s earliest manifestations men ruled less powerful men, too. (Still do, really, but less so. Men no longer need to get a fathers permission to marry, for instance).
Some posts on how women internalize and accept their inferiority.
Why Do Women Fight Against Their Own Interests?
Feminist Click Moment: You’re Against Battered Women’s Shelters?!
Are Women Brainwashed Into Polygamy?
The Burqa and Individual Rights: It’s Complicated
Frats Invite Sluts, Bitches; Women Accept Degradation. Why?
Tangled Up in Femininity
Women, We Are Men
Gender-Swapping Grammar Lessons
“Bitches and Dudes,” a.k.a. “Women and Men” on College Campuses
That’s Bitchin, But Life’s A Bitch
Finally, patriarchy isn’t inevitable:
Is Sexism Men’s Fault?
Hypergamy does not stem from patriarchy. This is proven to have a biological bases that may instead enhance Patriarchy. We see this with our primal ancestors, with chimpanzee which we share 99 percent of our DNA. Either you dont believe in evolution or you do. Even in matriarchal societies in the pacific nations, males who had more resources and were more masculine were highly sought after, there where even traditional practices in place to determine how alpha a male is during adolescence. As an Australian with friends who are Maori and Torres strait islanders, i know this. If you are under the impression that this is all culturally programmed, then let me present to you the Kibbutz experiment. In a Marxist commune in Israel, Marxists Jews during the creation of israel envisioned an egalitarian society where males and females where treated identical. Males and females since birth were not allowed outside influence as the Marxists thought it would corrupt these children. Here is an interesting read though i admit it does have chauvinistic undertones, but.the conclusion is undeniable: http://www.heretical.com/wilson/rkibbutz.html.. Conclusion: Women and men will never be the same, we all have different needs and roles in society. Though as a sociologist at ucla, i assume that you already know about the kibbutz experiment. Cognitive dissonance is a problem.And with the plethora of references uve given me about how evolutionary psychology is false when it comes to dating, well unfortunately this does not reflect reality, even in a time where patriarchy is at its most weakest or where matriachy is dominant. Yes you may dismiss my comments and label them as politically incorrect or too long for your liking, but again, these are just the facts that have a bases in reality. Here’s another academic paper by Judith Agassi: http://www.tau.ac.il/~agass/judith-papers/kibsx.pdf
I believe in evolutionary biology but not evolutionary psychology. Darwin felt the same way:
Are Women Naturally Monogamous?
Marxist Judaism arose under a patriarchy. Patriarchies take time to dismantle. Can’t happen over night. They changed social structures, but did not get to the underlying culture.
Among Amerian Indians like the Iroquois and Cherokee, property was passed through women, as was family lineage.
And, you cite foreign cultures when you could look in your own backyard for rebuttal:
If it’s genetic, then how do you explain Julia Roberts, J-Lo, Dolly Parton… I could go on, among other noted celebrities, who make — or made– more $ than their husbands, and “married down”?
How do you explain that 40% of American women, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, are the breadwinners for their families. See this Wall St Journal article:
Did I marry up or down? I have a Ph.D and my husband has an MS. Starting salaries are higher for me than for him. Through a series of promotions he now makes more than me, but at the moment I chose, he didn’t.
If genes rule in the way you say they do, none of this would be possible.
Not only does ev psych look to animals and cultures that fit their theory and ignore those that don’t, but the further up the evolutionary scale you go, the less people are ruled by their genes, anyway.
Most of human behavior is guided by learning, not genes.
And re “Women and men will never be the same, we all have different needs and roles in society.” What feminine role do you think I’d find more fulfilling than teaching and blogging. I love my life as it is.
If you want to deny all I said, then go ahead and live in your cognitive dissonance, as you put it.
Lets assume you are completely right about gender roles and attributes being all socially constructed conceptions, that were put in place in the thousand years preceding the modern era as a way of controlling women, how can you define a man today? And also, with your insinuations that human behavior such as gender roles and dispositions are totally socially constructed, does that mean you agree with the extreme right that homosexual behavior is equally socially induced and not rooted in our genes.
And also with your dismissal of Marxist Jewry at the Kibbutz as having an undercurrent of patriarchy, did you not read the passages and the studies on the fact that those in the kibbutz intentionally alienate patriarchal forces such as family structured towards male leadership and other social structures which were once reserved for male dominion, not to mention the social discourse being neutral gender oriented. In fact it could be said that Marxist Jewry would be furthest away from the establishment and patriarchy. Have you even read the reports ive given you.
With your article on monogamy and women, you seem to forget that the example of the red Indian and the Tahitian women are an anomaly among the thousands of other societies untouched by European and judeo-christian influences who do have patriarchies. Also with the list of successful women youve listed, these are again not the rule but the exceptions and you’ve forgot to mention the high divorcement rates of these successful women, which is astonishingly high. Also these women had attractive “alpha’ men. I do remember Dolly parton and several of your examples having been married more that once or twice, with many staying single. With models, i and many of my male friends don’t find them attractive unless they are healthy and even curvaceous. You can say we prefer the Victorian secret body type to those of the Kardashians and curvy Latin women. And also, with the upper echelon of British society prioritizing wealth over attractiveness, all i could say is that do you ever watch the news. The British rich and royalty class are full of stunning women from Diana, princess Beatrice to current day Princesses. You’ve realize that successful rich families are usually quite a stunning bunch, you could say hundreds of years of male preferring beautiful women and women preferring men of status, where only the beautiful can make it has produced the expected result.
And i would like to say that social darwinism does make sense that women prefer mates who were superior than other men because while men can have unprotected sex with no consequences with hundreds of women, women will always be pregnant for 9 months where survival rates 100 years ago for new borns are poor, it was necessary to have strong genes for survival. Remember, a century ago the average life expectancy was quite low. Overall, youve only supplied me with half truths and exceptions. Although 40 percent of breadwinners being women i see as being over inflated figure, still, do you consider the astonishing high rate of divorce and singledom which seem to get higher as women occupy better position. Yes women may have more opportunities to lead independent lives after divorcing their abusive partners but when half of marriages fail, i doubt half of married men are abusive. And i didn’t say that women decision on having a mate is 100 percent hypergamous, im only saying women are “predisposed” to hypergamy like men are predisposed to being dominant, not all women will want to have a husband who makes more than them, but many do, and choose to act upon those desires when the opportunity arise. Im sorry that this was long, but rebutting your many arguments was no easy task. If i seemed antagonistic, just know that i am sorry.
I’ll answer this comment but make your next comments shorter or I’m likely to ignore them.
re “how can you define a man today?”
A man has an xy gene combination, larger amounts of testosterone than women, and different anatomy.
I will be posting a study soon that shows that when it comes to personality traits men and women are actually pretty similar. It seems important to you that they be different. I’m wondering why.
Is sexual orientation socially constructed? I did not say that everything is socially constructed. I said that the higher you go up the evolutionary ladder the more learning takes place. There is plenty of evidence that biology plays a strong role in sexual orientation. Socially constructed sexuality has to do with things like what is considered attractive, when people have sex, how they have sex, where they have sex, what is thought hot and what is not… The list goes on.
On that point, what’s considered attractive varies by culture. Victoria Secret models attract a huge audience to ogle the VC Angels and have no trouble getting dates, even though they’re unhealthy and anorexic. If you see the “sexiest women” of FHM, Maxim, and Esquire, they’re not all curvy.
Just because of a Kibbutz decides to change the culture doesn’t mean they’re going to do it. Easier said than done. Doing so takes years and years because people are so indoctrinated with patriarchy that half the time they don’t even realize what is patriarchal because life as it is seems so natural and normal.
How can you say that women marrying down is exceptional when 40% of American women are THE breadwinners in their families? And the celebs didn’t always marry alphas. J Lo married one of her dancers, for instance. Dolly Parton’s husband got his job (managing her) only because she was so successful. A study has come out showing most women prefer betas. I’ll be posting on it. And Julia Roberts married a camera man.
Within the next couple of weeks I will be posting something on women preferring beta men. It’s come up so much lately that I’m going to address it.
And evolutionary psych can’t even make sense in terms of math. Men can’t be promiscuous while women are monogamous.
Well these 40 percent of women who make more than their husbands will perhaps be only making a few thousand more, and with the econoomic crisis worsening the weak male dominated manufacturing sector, obviously there are many men who are either unemployed or underemployed. And Alpha does not necessarily mean higher income men, it could mean attractive, strong, socially dominant men. A dancer for example in latin culture is quiet an alpha male oriented activity where latin men who knew how to dance received admiration from women. And as i have said before, in an age where female breadwinners are rising, the divorcement rate is also rising in all these countries. Although correlation in many cases does not imply causation, i think it is important to consider the rise of female breadwinners as a possibly related to why half of all marriages end in divorce.
First, divorce rates have gone down in America as feminism has increased and women have increasingly become the breadwinners. Among the middle and upper classes it’s plummeting.
Second, you twist things to find some way to support your thesis: dancers and cameramen COULD be alpha! but you don’t have any evidence that they are!
Especially strange since your whole original point was that hypergamy was natural and in our genes. Clearly, it is not! Alpha or not, none of the celebs or 40% of women breadwinners (and many are sole breadwinners as men increasingly become stay-at-home dads) could occur if that were true. And don’t forget: divorce rates are down in America as feminism has increased!
Plus, in the next couple weeks I’ll be posting on a study that found women preferring beta over alpha men.
I also have a personal story of my experience hypergamy. As an arts student an aspiring lawyer at melbourne university a prestigious university in Australia, i was on top of the world. I was dating the girl of my dreams, I was told by many who had crushes on me that i was attractive, and i was the youth leader in my Jewish Ethiopian community and captain of my class. A year into my studies, i found out that i was diagnosed with bipolar disorder type 2 which is like having a depressive temperament. It also meant that i could not attend university because my brain was not functioning properly. Even now while writing this message is no easy task. After a year, my girl friend left me for a law graduate and my friends became fewer as i retreated to my shell. And to make things worse, i was also losing my hair. As the meds started working, and i started dating again, many dates did not progress once i told the girls i was a drop out. It become clear that the type of women i was dating, the educated undergraduates didn’t respect me working as a cash register at Target. i cried myself to sleep from the pain of bipolar, fell in a deep depression, almost overdosing. I went through stages of pity then anger then pity. But then I started reading evolutionary psychology and it all made sense, to them, i was an ex alpha.who was the leader of his pack, but now im just a lonely balding cash registrar without any prospects. At age 23, i realize that evolution was true, i become an athiest, because i saw the exact behavioural pattern everywhere. We are all pathetic animals, but we delude ourselves that we are somehow special because of superior intelligence and morality.pfft yet we are motivated like a virus to spread hegemony through the seas and the land, destroying nature and murdering so many millions while the innocent citizens are complicit. We may be smarter than animals, but we sure are motivated by the same basic instincts. Pathetic. Im sorry this was long but i had to write my own experience. Thank you
I’m so sorry for your difficult experience.
But it completely fits what would happen in a patriarchy. In patriarchy women are taught to be secondary and to feel discomfort with men who are less powerful than themselves. In order to get past it, as many have, they move into egalitarian notions.
Also, now that women are able to earn a living, men are more likely to want to marry a woman who has a job because household income will be higher and the whole burden is not on themselves. I know a guy who mourned losing a beauty queen girlfriend who was also a doctor. What a catch! he’d said. He eventually married a very successful money manager who made them over a million dollars. He was thrilled with her. (He was a Controller for a high tech firm, and eventually became a CFO.)
In fact, most men marry women who are similar in education and status to themselves.
But your situation goes even beyond that. Ev psych says women don’t care so much about looks. Obviously girls found you less attractive as you lost your hair.
She also might have been attracted to you even if you were a beta (as many women are attracted to betas). But after getting a difficult-to-deal-with illness most people would find that too difficult to deal with.
I wouldn’t want to be with someone who was bi-polar, and I doubt many men would want to be with bi-polar women. It just sounds too difficult when you have other options.
I suspect the exact same thing would have happened if gender had been reversed:
I am a young woman, an arts student and aspiring lawyer at melbourne university a prestigious university in Australia, i was on top of the world. I was dating the man of my dreams, I was told by many who had crushes on me that i was attractive, and i was a youth leader in my Jewish Ethiopian community. A year into my studies, i found out that i was diagnosed with bipolar disorder type 2 which is like having a depressive temperament. It also meant that i could not attend university because my brain was not functioning properly. After a year, my boyfriend left me for a law graduate and my friends became fewer as i retreated to my shell. And to make things worse, i was also losing my hair. As the meds started working, and i started dating again, many dates did not progress once i told guys i was a drop out. It become clear that the type of men i was dating, the educated undergraduates didn’t respect me working as a cash register at Target.
Yes, i do get where you are going, but then again, for some reason with the men i know, a women education is far less a deal breaker. Ive had many friends who were accountants who married women who worked in bars. It is often women i observe who place quite high standards for men in terms of achievements. Its funny because i know a guy who dropped out of my high school who made it big in selling random items and ended up marrying this professional girl i knew who actively stayed away from dating Tradesmen. I mean i thought finding the right person was all about being compatible in terms of personality and interests, i am sure couples wont be discussing the annual law report on the changes of the workplace regulation act. Heck I know Tradies who have an impeccable taste in 20th century literature and classical music during the Romantic era,ect Vladimir Horowitz. I dont think we should use stereotypes to color all Tradesmen as beer guzzling, uncultured rough neck men. And to think university educated people are intellectually and culturally superior is also equally fallacious, i mean how many university educated peeps end up in the jersey shore culture.
I think many women masks their preferences for men financially better off than themselves by saying their seeking their intellectual equals when in fact they would settle for businessmen who dropped out of high school. I mean i can’t blame them, the fact is women will have to take two to fifteen years being mothers and finding a husband that can sustain an upper middleclass lifestyle is important. And evo psych does’nt say that a man’s look does’nt matter, actually looks does matter as in nature, the tall alpha male with facial symmetry and muscular frame is favoured as these traits increased offspring survivability.
In Latin America, dancing is an alpha oriented sport…the concept of an Alpha man changes throughout societies, though there are universal principals that underpin each distinctive definition. These include dominance(physical/sexual/social,financial) and Stoicism. And these are all the features favoured in men that promote our utility to women.
But hey, perhaps i am wrong, and hopefully as we get closer to a world of non existent gender roles and stigma’s, we men can stop stressing about our own utility to women, and maybe we might start preferring personality and character compatibility instead of a fat pay check and a million dollar estate.
There are plenty of reasons to doubt the veracity of evolutionary psychology which I won’t go into yet again because it’s repetitive. I’ve listed a number of links above that get into the critique.
But men are often uncomfortable marrying women who are more successful than they are because we live in a culture that says that men are higher than women. So men can find it emasculating. Meanwhile, many women feel uncomfortable marrying men who rank lower than them for the same reason. Because they are taught to be number two in our culture.
That said, it can’t be in our genes for men to marry down and women to marry up because 1) most people marry their equal and 2) the pattern is often reversed, as noted in the Wall Street Journal article I cited above which talks about how 40% of homes have a female breadwinner.
from William Shakespeare on love:
“Let me not to the marriage of true minds Admit impediments. Love is not love Which alters when it alteration finds, Or bends with the remover to remove. Oh, no! it is an ever fixed mark That looks on tempests and is never shaken: It is the star to every wandering bark, Whose worth’s unknown, although his height be taken. Love’s not Time’s fool, though rosy lips and cheeks Within his bending sickle’s compass come; Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks, But bears it out even to the edge of doom, If this be error and upon me proved, I never writ, nor no man ever loved”
I didn’t get it ’til my English 102 Teacher helped me break it down.
I guess you’re right, maybe weve all been socially conditioned to think of men as dominant breadwinners and women as submissive subordinates. I personally think that both women and men enforce this notion, Ive been freinds with many women who would constantly say that they would not respect a man if he made less than them. Eventually you do read stories on tabloids of women leaving their men abruptly because apparently they dont feel feminine being the breadwinners. I hope you’re right. The world has change quite dramatically in the last 40 yrs, who knows about the future.
I agree that women enforce the notion too. One of the reasons I got interested in sociology and how “internalization” works (how society gets into all of our heads so that we all support society’s ways even when they hurts us) is because of this. See these post for example:
Why Do Women Fight Against Their Own Interests?
Feminist Click Moment: You’re Against Battered Women’s Shelters?!
Are Women Brainwashed Into Polygamy?
The Burqa and Individual Rights: It’s Complicated
Frats Invite Sluts, Bitches; Women Accept Degradation. Why?
The more interesting question is why, instead of dealing directly and honestly with the most basic aspects of male sexuality, women often invent such asinine theories like “men feel entitled to women’s bodies”. Why? Is it, perhaps, because if they were to admit that they do have the power to mess up with our biochemistry, they would also have to accept responsibility for that power, something that the modern feminists teach them to avoid at all costs?
If you read closer, you’d see that “men feel entitled to women’s bodies” was written by a man who studies men and masculinity.
If it were up to you, you’d have all women in burkas. Which is really all about controlling women, not “helping” men.
I suppose women should never look at a man or smile at a man, either, as many rapists blame their raping on that sort of behavior.
Face it, men can and should be responsible for their own behavior. We know that men can do it because the vast majority of men don’t rape.
Allow me to explain. When I see a pretty girl walking around with her breasts half-naked, I experience a perfectly natural, albeit fleeting urge to touch her. Now, whether you like it or not, this has absolutely nothing to do with me feeling entitled to her body or wanting to control her or any other theoretical notion. Desire of a physical contact with a beautiful female in sight is a most basic, primordial reaction, hard-wired into male brain. I frankly don’t care what any university hot-shot has to say about it, and honestly I find his insinuations deeply insulting.
Of course, like any other normative and socialized guy, I do not follow on my urges – I suppress them and just keep going. However, and I hope that you realize that, going around day by day suppressing something so deeply ingrained in your hardware can be quite stressful. It is not enough that society and media assaults us with sexualized images on a daily basis, in fact it is quite easy to ignore an ad poster, really, I see them as something abstract anyway, but it is much harder to just ignore all the women who desperately try to copycat these posters.
The real problem is that the current situation is blatantly unequal. I’ve seen that many of your arguments in this thread state that it is just a natural thing for girls to feel pretty and desirable and to flaunt their beauty and sexiness. Well, I accept this. But why on Earth the women should get free license to follow on their admittedly natural urges and not give a damn about our feelings, while we must keep our natural urges suppressed all the time?
Gender equality that you dream of cannot come about without MUTUAL respect, and you cannot have that until you keep pretending that men don’t exist or are like robots.
I’m not saying you need to be robots. I’m saying you shouldn’t hate pretty women. Why would the feelings you describe naturally lead to hatred?
Re “society and media assaults us with sexualized images on a daily basis”
I complain about this too. Creates too one-dimensional a view of women. And what do we women have to look at? Next to nothing. I feel men should be more sexualized, and women less.
Re “I’ve seen that many of your arguments in this thread state that it is just a natural thing for girls to feel pretty and desirable and to flaunt their beauty and sexiness. Well, I accept this.”
You accept this, but I don’t. It’s a misreading of what I’m saying. Women feel PRESSURED to look pretty because it’s, unfortunately, often a huge source of their self-worth (which I critique in other posts). And it’s not inevitable. Some women behave this way, others don’t. I don’t. I just don’t think women should be hated for being attractive.
To DR. Excellently stated! You have hit the nail on the head, both for men and for women. In some circles, young girls are taught to be more modest in their choices of clothing and are taught why (for the facts you brought up). I think that education is the answer, if girls and boys could learn these things in grammar school then they might be more understanding of each other and try harder to prevent confusion. Understanding ourselves as male and female human beings is key.
To Lynn and DR:
It may well be that you both are wanting to be helpful, rather than just wanting to control women, so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt here. Unfortunately for you, insisting that women be modest will not work the way you hope.
The cultures in which women’s bodies are least sexualized are those in which women are most immodest, as with women in tribal cultures who wear next to nothing. Men see their bodies and “Who cares?”
In a place like Afghanistan under the Taliban, where women are covered from head to toe, every part of a woman’s body is seen as sexual, including her hair, her eyes, her ankles. Every inch of her body is thought to be extremely sexually provocative and so she must keep covered head to toe whenever she is outside. And when she is inside, and less covered among family members, she must still keep the windows painted black so that no man might accidentally see her and become ravenous with lust.
We live in a culture that magnifies “woman as sexual” through two opposing avenues: modesty plus revealing the body (hiding and selectively revealing it, that is). On the one hand we draw attention to women’s curves by focusing in on them – the camera, men’s talk – while we also ask women to cover their privates, which helps to keep them that much more intriguing.
See these posts:
Modesty Objectifies Women Says Nude Egyptian
How Creepy Conservative Christian Modesty Doctrines Harm Young Women
Men Aren’t Hard Wired To Find Breasts Attractive
Women Learn the Breast Fetish, Too
Women Seeing Women as Sexier than Men
I see your point. I have also realized this in my past, but forgot. Jeez, I don’t know what we can do to just get things right for the majority of people (I realize it is not anyone else’s business). Guess we just have to do whatever we think is right for ourself in our own culture and with our own understanding at any given time. I think most of us really care about each other. I still think education is the key. The more we can get the truth out about sexuality, and the facts about how men and women are, and get realistic views on the hard-wiring of men & women, the better we will all feel, I think. One item on hardwiring for women that I think is true, is that women are hard-wired to want a man to only want her, because we are the child bearers. Some say it is a fairy tale to want the man to only love her, and in this day and age, where birth control is available, many women can intellectualize and overcome their hard-wiring and realize that they do not have to “keep” a man all to themselves. This is so amazing to me. I think human beings are wonderful beings, and yet we see so many troubles with feelings related to our relationships with each other. I wish for all people to find peace, happiness and healthy, satisfying relationships with each other and with our romantic/ and/or sexual partners.
I agree that education is key.
Not so sure women are naturally monogamous, although culturally that seems to be common(defined here as wanting a man to want only them).
Maybe there’s something growing in doing our best to work together with the different socialization and biology that males and females have.
Every girl I knew in school, neighborhood playmates, and every woman throughout my entire adult life, has expressed desires (like fairy tale stories of the female being loved by a boy or man) and has shown and expressed a desire for being loved by one man. I am an American, with only my own culture’s experiences. I have watched many old time and modern love story movies, that portray how happy a woman is being loved by one man, a man who will love her when she is young (and therefore her best physical beauty) and when she grows old (and loses the “perfect” physical beauty). Isn’t it really about a woman wants to be loved? And isn’t it really about a man wants to be loved? I just want to be loved by a man, enjoy sex with him until the day I die, and would hope he wanted this with me, no matter what I looked like. The best sex, for me, would be to know He loves me as a person, and that we enjoy that aspect during the sexual act so much that we don’t care anymore what we look like on our surfaces. In my opinion, the greatest sexual experience is to have sex with someone you truly love and who truly loves you.
Of course, I come from the same culture.
In a patriarchal society, a man would be able to marry from any class system because class was not important perhaps except for the royalty class where estates were at stake. I mean how many stories have we heard of that “lowly” classed girl marrying a prince but we never hear of a princess marrying a lowly laborer. Women continues to marry up because of hypergamy. One one more thing, why don’t feminists like to discuss hypergamy and how it has rewarded “alpha” men for bad behaviour. Why is it that despite an age of equality, women are more than ever intent on marrying up. I love how feminists like to deny evolutionary psychology when it has a bases in reality. And one thing, if women felt they were so equal, why has it been found by social commentators such as Liz Mundy that women in their 20’s wanted a man who was smarter and m ore accomplished then they are?
“Women continues to marry up because of hypergamy” is nonsensical. It translates as: “Women continues to marry up because women marry up.”
In no patriarchal societies do men marry up. If you disagree, name one.
I will be posting soon on women preferring betas, btw.
Also, abusive men often start out very charming and the woman falls in love with him and it’s only after she falls in love with him that she learns he’s an abusive “alpha” (as you’d likely call him. I think he’s not alpha but covering for his insecurity) – after she’s hooked. Most women leave but it takes them a while to do it. One of my students had this experience and I will be posting what she wrote about it in a future blog post.
I’ve also written a piece that I haven’t posted yet that talks about how “bad boys” and “mean girls” seem attractive at first because for some reason they tend to know how to put themselves together and look good – including both fashion and confidence. So initially men and women are both attracted to these “bad” types. But after a while the real person shows through and becomes unappealing. So chin up. The bad boys and mean girls aren’t always having the good luck that it appears they’re having – at least not in the long run.
Here are a couple related posts if you’re interested. I’ll be writing more on the topic of why girls SEEM to like bad boys (or what you likely think are alphas but I do not: men covering insecurity thru bluster). And it only seems that way in that some girls do but most girls don’t. It’s just more glaring when they do.
The Allure of Bad Boys
Teen Cougars at Prom
And evolutionary psych is crap. See these posts by me that I can think of off the top of my mind + posts by others:
Are Women Naturally Monogamous?
Guys Are Getting More Romantic
Guys Just Wanna Have Relationships?
Racism: Genetic or Learned?
Black Isn’t Beautiful Claims Evolutionary Psychologist
Posts by others:
Fundamental attribution error. From Leopard. http://cratesandribbons.com/2013/02/09/nature-vs-nurture-why-we-need-to-stop-using-evolution-as-an-explanation-for-gender-differences/
http://jezebel.com/5863842/why-short-skirts-magically-turn-women-into-bitches This “myth of male
I just found this blog today!
I was googling- Why do men feel entitled to a woman’s body..
This article came up!
Very interesting and well written.
Thanks for the insight, cool blog!
Thank you! Glad you like the blog.
And whoever confidently uses the word swag. Grow the hell up. I mean talk about control. Some rapper uses it to define how fake u can make youjself to score a chick. And now ppl see being fake in a positive light . Let’s wait for next hiphop vocab to coome out and watch the fools jump on the band wagon
I can see where your coming from on the issue of men treatingwomen morelike equals but women often become easy targets for like you saiangry men who like the femalesexcuse to look beautiful like society tells them. (Which personally I think its a jealousy and power issue) naturally feel they are superior to women its in our genetics. So when women hit puberty and realize the power femininity gives them they use it as atool of atraction and elevate themselvves as entitled to deserve the best, simply beecause they take advatage of mens natural feelings leaving some, who don’t care about them to succeed in their bulllike atttiude and the guys who care and aredismissed because of their vulnerability and the unbalanced nature of male dominance. Making sicerely invaled unless it is taken as a skill and the women is in turn a prize of your rehearsed efforts. Sum women are blinnded and probably try so hard on their image because of insecurities but all in all its about power and entitlement. And not to mention jelousy and manipulating men into false attraction and skillfull sincereity which leavees those good people with good intentions out in the cold.
I realize men often think women women use their beauty to feel superior to men. Really, it’s mostly about their own self-worth. In this culture women’s self-esteem usually comes from their looks, so it’s incredibly important to many, if not most, women to be beautiful. Self-esteem often disappears without it. It’s why aging is so difficult.
If feel it’s a flimsy and insecure basis, and needs to change for women’s well-being.
Women can also see beauty as an equalizer of power, but it’s mostly about beauty. I mean, how much power is there in beauty? The power to turn a head? The power to get small favors? Big deal. The power to have men treat you equally and with respect is important.
Women would be better off with more substantive power, anyway.
I suspect that because men are so obsessed with power issues (part of the male role), they can’t imagine that women aren’t doing the same thing.
I surveyed women on why they dress sexy. As expected, it was all about self-esteem. (I have yet to publish my results.)
Also, men aren’t actually genetically predisposed to be, or want to be, superior. See this: https://broadblogs.com/2011/01/24/is-sexism-men%E2%80%99s-fault/
I think the problem here is the same problem we have with men..
We have a few manipulative, asshole women abusing their beauty, and that ruins things for the rest of us. I’m sure men can relate to that part of it, since they often get painted with a broad brush based on a few assholes themselves.
Makes sense to me.
Nobody hates you and only a true pycho wants to rape you. Also, men don’t want an object that’s just silly, what they want is someone that likes sex as much as they do! They want someone to share (ideally someone they respect) in their desire for erotic, passionate, lustful, animal pleasure.
You need to understand that men walk around 24hrs a day with a sex drive you will never know. To approximate this feeling don’t eat for 72 hours and walk into your favorite restaurant, order up your favorite meal and just sit there and look at it, don’t eat it. That’s how we feel ladies!
I deleted your last two sentences because I won’t put misogynistic comments on my blog. And they completely belie your first sentence, sounding very hateful. So strangely, you prove my point even as you argue against it.
(For those who want to know, he thinks that women should dress more modestly because he feels it’s just too painful for men to be denied all that sexiness. But he said it in a very mean way.)
However, I kept the rest because I think it is actually informative.
Despite the previous misogynistic statement that was appropriately omitted, ive actually spoken to all my male friends and this is what we feel all the time.when in the company of extremely to moderately attractive females. The male sex drive is a tortuous thing, it cannot be controlled and will become more intense with every moment without “food”.
Many men, and many of my male commenters, agree that men can control their sexuality. Actually, it can be controlled or women would be raped non-stop.
That’s just a bunch of excuses for lack of personal responsibility. Your urges are your problem. It’s called emotional intelligence. Learn to develop some.
This is a big deal…im a very attractive woman…but i dont flaunt it or dress up– in fact i dress down…however…in 15 years of being a beautiful woman…ive noticed only negativity and HATRED aggressiveness from MALES and this goes for anyone– random strangers…people at social outings…men literally LOATHE me…its so confusing…i cant get a boyfriend. Men will not ask me out or want to be with me. Men do not want to sexually pleasure me…im a virgin at 33. What men do want to do drops in several categories 1. use/abuse me cruelly 2. torture me or be cruel to me 3. Mistreat me mock or make fun of me 4. Injure me or put me through pain 5. control me sadistically or violently. This is ALL i get from men– torture/abuse/control- NOTHING else. It has been horrendously baffling to try to understand why as a sweet innocent BEAUTIFUL girl i get nothing but hostility entitlement and HATRED from males….this sort of explains some of it– that entitlement or those feelings however….i question why males take it out on ME and not other women….why to a female who DOESNT flaunt her beauty and who covers up…i don’t undertand this. But due to men’s hatred for me— i cant meet guys or get a boyfriend unfortunately..i live in celibacy…because men will NOT be with me out of extreme jealousy/hatred..b/c i am beautiful…it makes no sense but this is the reality of how males are these days– they are twisted/dysfunctional insecure bizarre WEIRD….
Well, by the sound of it, maybe you’re just hanging around the wrong guys. Personally, I dress in a way that would construe me as a lesbian to normal guys, even though I just don’t give a damn. I’ve had my fair share of compliments aimed at my appearance, and though it feels nice to hear it from both genders, I think guys are just turned off by the fact that I don’t give a fuck concerning wearing make-up (which I never do), wearing sexy clothing (I normally dress like a middle school boy), and my hair which is short as hell (again, like a boy’s). Sure, I get complimented a lot, but it just rolls off of my back especially when people plead for for me to be more outwardly feminine, because, as I said, I just don’t give a fuck. I’m going into Computer and Information Science when I get into college after senior year, anyway, so I sure as hell won’t have to worry about needing to appeal to a man to be financially secure anyways. I guess being extremely shy and introverted, and avoidant of social situations, doesn’t make for the shiniest fish in the pond.
Anyway, pertaining to your situation, get the hell out of where ever you are and settle for an attractive nice guy who is going to treat you like a lady. It sounds like you’ve been around too many bad boys, which I hate with a burning passion. Stay away from frat boys, too. Because the nice guys respect an intelligent, attractive, and nice women which, if that defines you, is what they want and both of you deserve. And girl, don’t judge yourself based on your virginity. A girl who doesn’t casually sleep around, and sleeps only with people she really loves, is more respected anyway. It works for both genders, but, whatever.
Have a nice day, every one.
Hey Jennifer, from your overwhelmingly negative experiences it sounds like you’re attracting them. If that’s the case, nothing in your environment will improve until YOU change.
“What you resist persists.” The bad things you spend time mulling over, and replaying in your mind, and projecting onto people you haven’t even met is creating a powerful belief with an equally powerful magnetic force that bring your more of the things you hate.
Be a magnet for positive experiences instead. Change your belief system. Next time you’re out with your friends: Try to be in a good mood. Laugh. whatever. Put on a smile (it helps.) Instead of predicting doom or rejection, repeatedly tell yourself positive thoughts & beliefs (even if they seem doubtful) like: “I’m gonna have a really good time tonight…” “Guys are so polite and sweet to me–my personality just has that effect on them.”
I guarantee if you can stay truly positive and upbeat, most of your experiences will be nice. Occasionally, you’ll meet a jerk or two. Check your vibe–if it was bad–> relax and try to cheer up. If tho, you were in a great mood prior to that, don’t sweat it! Chances are, if you wait, something really, really nice will happen soon…
Feel amazing and you’ll be a magnet for positive experiences!
That’s a terrible thing to say to any woman sanna definitely not my attitude as when I went to other cities I noticed my sisters male friends one married staring at me as if he was shocked. In fact another of her married male friends DOES hit on me and seems very attracted to me but again he’s married. I’m a very positive person and anyone being rejected wud be negative but I’m not. My description of experiences doesn’t make me negative. Victim blaming is messed up and no one has to be upbeat to get a boyfriend. That’s just bad advice. I’ve seen many nasty mean rude people in relationships. Nothing anyone does is wrong and a female getting abused is a sad thing. Don’t perpetuate negativity like you’re doing. Ur advice alone is the most negative thing ever
I have one objection to way this article describes this phenomenon. I have some resentment towards the power women have over me but I have never felt entitled to a woman’s body as this article suggests. To me the resentment is aimed more at my stupid primate brain that fills my blood stream with chemicals that make me think I NEED women to be a valid male. It’s our primal survival instincts that have programmed men into measuring their self-worth based on their success with women.
I’m sure there are plenty of men out there who DO feel entitled to a women’s body and that then turns into resentment but I wanted to make the point that this is not always the source of the resentment. Some of us just wish we could turn that switch off in our brains a little easier. Louis CK’s bit on Live @ Beacon Theater called “Constant Sexual Thoughts” explains what I’m talking about.
Thanks for your perspective. Could be an overgeneralization.
Thanks for the reference, I’ll check it out.
Doesn’t it ever occur to men that they can change something if it’s not working out for them?
I mean, I used to get my sense of beauty and significance by the men I could get attention from or find me attractive, but I deprogrammed myself out of it. I shouldn’t be able to do that according to nature because it’s a drive of mine, but I did. I think it’s the same for men.
We can’t change our hormones. The genitals are controlled by a nerve cluster at the base of the spine. Our brains can only make suggestions to the genital control center.
Input from sensors (eyes, scent, touch, heat, ears) are processed and sent to the genital nerve center. They may bypass conscious thought.
Drunk/drugged men can be unconscious and still be sexually responsive. Sleeping men may not awaken from being raped. Even orgasm may not awaken a man. Para- and quadriplegic men may or may not sense what is going on down below. It depends on what nerve fibers are damaged or nonfunctioning.
Some women think that men can erect and ejaculate by direct will, as we can move our arms and spit totally voluntarily. Or so women have told me. I’ve been told that a woman thought that urine came from her vagina – she wasn’t aware of her urethral opening! She must’ve been texting her buds during bio or sexed?
But no need to hate pretty women. Luckily, men can control themselves, even if not their erections.
Beyond me why anyone would hate a woman for being pretty. Brain damaged?
I was surprised. Still doesn’t entirely make sense to me.
Guys who feel like society is unjust because it won’t just hand them the hot women whom they feel entitled to should grow up. Perhaps they wouldn’t be so lonely if they didn’t such unrealistic expectations of what their girlfriend or wife should look like. There’s nothing more pathetic than an average schmoe who feels like he’s owed a Sports Illustrated cover model just because he has a job and isn’t a sociopath.
These are your self-described Nice Guys: guys who are nothing special themselves yet are all striving to get one of the top percentile females (in terms of desirability).
That being said, I think women should understand just how hard it is for guys to risk their ego and deal with rejection. Some guys spend all their lives getting rejected while the women they chase put up with all sorts of crap from the most desirable men. Rejection is extremely scary and devastating, so much so that many women absolutely refuse to make the first move EVER, even if it entails being lonely.
Thanks for your comment.
Good advice all around.
I was surprised to read that one third of men feel angry when they see women dressed provocatively. My personal impression has been that most men are grateful for the constant stream of opportunities to get a free vicarious sexual thrill almost anywhere they go.
I went out with a guy once that couldn’t resist staring after every woman dressing for sexual attention wherever we went. It hurt my feelings that the attention I wanted from him was going elsewhere, to total strangers, and it made me try to dress more sexually to get that attention. This made me feel badly about myself, and I ended up getting attention from men that I didn’t like or want attention from. And it was still never enough.
While my boyfriend at the time insisted that he wanted me, it was hard to believe because he was frequently staring at “her”. And who wouldn’t – the woman would be dressed in a way that would make anyone think about sex. It ruined the energy and thought put into trying to be attractive for my date only to watch him lust after the woman at table 5.
Dressing in a sexually provocative way supports the view of women as sexual objects.
Most people will go through the experience of wanting some partner they can’t have. This is life and is one of the things we all have to learn how to deal with (without resorting to violence like rape)
The constant stream of “scantily-clad” images constantly pushed into our view is really unfair to the guys (and their girlfriends/wives) because for many, they can’t not look, and they can’t have her, and now their loved one is hurt or angry at them too!
I wonder how men would behave and how they would feel if sex wasn’t the primary marketing tool of society? Would they be less pissed off at women?
Good insight from Kristine!
I was raped at 17 yrs old, never prosecuted ‘cuz somehow i didn’t judge people; later I understood and was glad I didn’t prosecute.. I wish men knew that when a girl (or woman) dresses , she may be totally unaware of how someone else is going to think, especially a very young person. I think, once a woman understands that boys and men are naturally (designed by God) to like a woman’s body, that the knowledgable woman should be caring and consider many aspects.
I’m so sorry to hear about your experience. Although these men are angry and say they’d like to rape, it doesn’t mean they do. And, regardless of what you were wearing, please know that the rape was not your fault. How a woman dresses never actually causes rape. See these posts:
Does Provocative Dress Ever Cause Rape?
Mind of a Rapist: Trying to Bridge a Gap between a Small Self and a Big Man
Rape Epidemic in South Africa. Why?
I think that this article brings up a very prominent issue with men and women and many underlying issues as well. If a man does not care for a women to be dressed provocatively than that is his own personal issue, especially if he just goes to a public place and see’s a women he does not even know very well and judges her. That is so unfair. This resentment towards women I believe is probably displaced. Perhaps the man had a horrible relationship with a very beautiful woman, so thus causing him to have feelings of resentment towards all women, but once again, this is his OWN PERSONAL issue and for no reason should he have to act improperly upon it. Especially the idea of raping a women based on the clothing she is wearing. That is simply absurd and a huge violation of respect for woman.
In this western society we live in today we are lucky enough to have the freedom to dress however we’d like. This is our personal style, which should not be altered by a man who feels uncomfortable. I’ve had many negative experiences with guy friends assuming that because I am their friends I would want to date them or hook up with them. I think most of the time men have trouble understanding that not every girl in the world thinks it would be awesome to date them.
I think a way to find a solution to this problem begins very simply:respect for each other
I was raped at age 17-y-o when I wore a mini skirt ( the style at the times). Then later (age 59-y-o) I went out with a man ( age 55), and heard him say, when he saw a girl of about 15-y-o, that was dressed that showed her physical female beauty, for her, perhaps, just a style of the times, “she’s asking for it.” This upset me so much! (I would not go out with this man again)
. What is she asking for, I thought. Please men, and boys, don’t assume that a very young girl dressed to the times is asking for anything!
She’s asking for male attention, not rape. The more men notice her, the larger pool she has to pick from. The rest can just keep looking, or go play with themselves.
I have definitely felt the negatives of the way of thinking some boys have towards women, such as feeling ‘entitled’ to a woman. In my personal experience, I have had boys ask me out, but no matter how nicely or kindly I try to tell them “no” I get a sort of shock from them. They then try to push me to date them or demand to know why I won’t date them to the point I feel a threatened and scared. They behave like I have no right to deny them and often make a big drama out of nothing. (I have had one experience with a boy who would draw himself committing suicide to try and scare me into a relationship). Unfortunately, in my experience, I have had more boys seem to think that because I’m more quiet or shy I should be honored to date them or that they even asked me in the first place (since I’m not particularly attractive I think). I even had a co-worker I’ve only known for a day get upset with me for not wanting to date him!
This article makes so much sense for me, because I have lost every guy friend who decided to ask me out, because they have the mentality that they are entitled to women. I’ve become “that bitch” that won’t date them, thus they show unnecessary hostility towards me and it’s an absolute shame. However, what i’m saying is all from personal experience. I know very well that not all men are like this and have very close male friends who I feel safe with and do not have to worry about possible abuse or threats. However, I am surprised at how many boys I’ve befriended and lost due to their mentality.
On a different note, I liked this article mostly because I could relate to it. Kinda sucks that I relate because I’ve experienced the hostility boys can show when rejecting them, but none the less, it’s nice to know why they do!
Thank you for sharing your experience.
re: All the guys who’ve seemed threatening, and this one in particular: “I have had one experience with a boy who would draw himself committing suicide to try and scare me into a relationship”
Interesting that they thought this would work. Seems more like a warning to run the other way.