Why Don’t Laws Punish Men For Abortion?

Laws punishing women and doctors when an abortion is performed are proliferating. But it takes two to tango. Why are guys left off the hook?

Photo by Duanu00e9 Viljoen on Pexels.com

Some folks have suggestions about how men, too, might be punished for abortion:

  • Third-party vigilantes can collect a $10,000 bounty for turning in men who impregnate leading to abortion 
  • Automatic child support from fathers to mothers forced to have unwanted pregnancies 
  • Men must pay half of prenatal care and hospital costs related to the birth
  • Sue men for the cost of raising a child to age 18
  • Sue men for pain and suffering if they avoid helping to raise their child
  • Compensate mothers for loss of income due to child birth and child raising 
  • Life imprisonment for rapists, since they shouldn’t face lighter sentences than the young woman and girls who abort after rape or incest

And have you noticed that anti-abortion laws look more like misogyny than efforts to save lives? As I’ve written before, these same legislatures vote against:

  • prenatal care
  • gun safety laws
  • mask and vaccine mandates to protect the lives of others
  • food stamps for poor kids, disabled and elderly
  • climate legislation to prevent death from fires, polluted air, hurricanes, floods and drought. 
  • Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act that save lives

New anti-abortion laws mean that:

  • more women will be prosecuted for miscarriage
  • women could be stopped at the border to take a pregnancy test before she can go out of state
  • if a woman’s health or life are threatened too bad – it’s okay if the fetus kills her

Women and fetuses are not morally equivalent. If a fire broke out while “pro-lifers” protested a stem cell research lab, would you ignore the terrified screams of a two-year-old whose mother had brought her to the protest, so that you could save thousands of fertilized eggs — or as pro-lifers call them, “people”? I’ve never met anyone yet who would.

And in case you missed this, I saw the below on Facebook from Nev Schulman:

How about we treat every man who wants to buy a gun like every woman who wants to get an abortion?

  • Mandatory 48 hour waiting period
  • Parental permission
  • A note from his doctor proving he understands what he’s about to do
  • Video he must watch about the effects of gun violence
  • An ultrasound wand up the ass (just because)
  • Close down all but one gun shop in every state and make him travel hundreds of miles, take time off work, and stay overnight in a strange town to get a gun
  • Make him walk through a gauntlet of people holding photos of loved ones who were shot to death, people who call him a murderer and beg him not to buy a gun

“It makes more sense to do this with young men and guns than with women in healthcare right?”


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About BroadBlogs

I have a Ph.D. from UCLA in sociology (emphasis: gender, social psych). I currently teach sociology and women's studies at Foothill College in Los Altos Hills, CA. I have also lectured at San Jose State. And I have blogged for Feminispire, Ms. Magazine, The Good Men Project and Daily Kos. Also been picked up by The Alternet.

Posted on June 7, 2022, in reproductive rights and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 66 Comments.

  1. I am sorry you had to have such a rotten boss. I suppose her treatment gave you some insight into why women dislike experiencing sexual objectification. ”

    I feel like a hypocrite adding this, tho I don’t think so really. Yes, I did not like my shitty, ugly boss doing this. I hate to say this, but as a guy, I and men, can make our feelings and rules on what’s sexual harassment or bothers us based on if we like the woman and he looks to us. I mentioned by experience with both male and female managers, some male managers who annoyed me and others I liked and other women managers who I liked and then this shitty woman manager I had that was mean and a horrible boss. There was a previous manager, not the higher up one that put my bitch manager in check. But a department one that was my boss before the mean one took over in my department.

    This previous woman I liked a lot and so did the other employees. You could talk to her and she was fair. She had my back and helped me get a position I was hoping for by giving a good word about me to higher up managers when I applied for the position. I wish she was still around, but she wanted to go down south, and desired warm weather. So she transferred to the store’s company down south. But she was like my age, a year younger, very cool and quite pretty. I’m not gonna lie, it wouldn’t technically be right if she said it. But if she said I’d make good $ at her party stripping..I wouldn’t have minded that lol. I would’ve been like Matthew McConaughey in my head like “well alright, alright, alright” ha. I’m quite sure her girl friends most likely were cute too.

    I’m curious about the science to that. It’s not always that way and while for some it might be a “mean girls” thing. I think more often it’s not intentional or being exclusive but something sub conscious? Just ppl with things in common being friends. But I’ve noticed that for some reason, a lot of women who are hot or pretty or you know would be seen as attractive, seem to often have girl friends who are often cute or pretty as well, it’s interesting why. I’m not saying all, but it often happens like that. There has to be some interesting coincidence or sub conscious thing, it made me wonder from a psychology stand point

    • So your question is why I’m in like you doesn’t consider it sexual harassment if the woman is good looking, whereas women seem to feel harassed, regardless?

      I think that more than one thing is going on here.

      First, I think that men just seem more threatening, possibly because of size and strength differentials.

      Second, I don’t think that women see it as a compliment, either. More like the guys showing off the other guys — trying to demonstrate manhood to the other guys by the way he sexualizes her. So it’s at her expense and not a compliment. Even if he’s good-looking. Because it’s not really about her. It’s about him.

      Maybe men don’t have a similar reaction since because women aren’t socialized to use men to show off their heterosexuality and superiority by reducing a man to a sexual object.

      • It probably is due to the safety net of being a man and women not as strong or big as men. Plus women raping a person is pretty rare. But there isn’t that threat for men. I wonder if gay men tho especially gay men who are small build as In short and scrawny to the average man feel with come ons from another man? Is this a situation where men can see the threat almost like it is for women?

        Since the person coming on to them may be bigger and stronger and since it’s a man coming on to them and most rapes are committed by men. There is that threat too. I Wonder like say a gay club and one guy is a small dude say 5’4 150lbs gets approached and body grabbed by another guy like the size of Dwayne Johnson. Even if the Dwayne Johnson size guy was good looking to small guy, it’s an unsettling threatening situation for him.

        But back to my previous point. It’s what I just said and perhaps because of how sexualized and sexy women are too men. Men are just so horny and in a constant state of arousal and lust for sexy looking women. It doesn’t matter if she’s harassing him, if she looks good to him, he’ll think about sex with her. So her making a seemingly inappropriate sexual comment will more likely be inviting to him . However he’s turned off by the ugly woman so the come on from her is harassment because he doesn’t sexually desire her. I want to mention too tho that I did like my pretty boss too and not simply because she was good looking but because she was a nice person. That also was a factor. Likewise to the old ugly boss who I couldn’t stand and I didn’t like and she had a horrible personality.

      • What you are saying makes sense. But I don’t know how a small gay guy might feel in that situation.

        Turning to your other point, I don’t really like “lookism,” which is putting people down because of their looks. But this particular woman seems to be ugly on the inside, and that is a problem.

  2. No problem. Safe travels . Thanks

  3. In scooby doo there was a mini dog that would walk around angry and tough like ready fight and it was scrappy doo lol. She abused her power, was a bully, he a hot temper, She’d be fine for a good while and sense of humor, but something ticky tack would set her over. One thing I fucking hate too is scolding. She tried writing me up for something bogus. You can challenge things if it’s not fair. I had my breaking point, I came to the office to one of the assistant store managers who was definitely above the mean woman manager. This assistant manager was also a woman, but she was cool. I I liked her and others did too. She liked me too like I said and most do. And she knew my complaint was a valid because I was a respected worker and rarely complain. I told her about my dept manager, I was so upset I was shaking. It was kind of sweet tho seeing the assistatn managers expression. I could tell from the look on her face she legitmately felt bad for me seeing how upset and distraught I was and she did seem upset toward my department manger. She said she’ll talk to my shitty manager and I know she did because later that even when I came across my dept manager, she was suddenly quiet around me and nice to me.

    There were bosses I didn’t like, but I never hated a boss except her. She was a pos boss. There were female workers she caused to cry one time before. Ever see the movie matilda? ha I love that movie. Luckily she’s stepped down and is a regular employee. She started to have health issues, and it was obvious she never had the personality or temperament to handle the stress as a boss. I know it’s anecdotal, but I feel if you ask many ppl men and women about their bosses now or former bosses. It would probably be 50/50 where some liked their female bosses and not male but others men and women, they liked their male bosses or had their worst experiences from a female boss. Some other family members I know had a very ruthless female boss too. I know saying one is worse than the other, my point is it’s the individual person and personality, not the sex of the leader. If it’s that way for managers why would it be so much different as a politically leader?

    • Turns out I have time for the rest of your questions. And since your last two are interrelated, here’s my thoughts on both:

      Yes, I also believe the world would be better off if we had equal numbers of women and men in power positions. Partly because the genders are socialized differently so it’s good to get those qualities that have been developed on each side.

      And yes, some men and women alike have adopted strong, patriarchal, viewpoints, which don’t tend to be helpful. And patriarchy and men are two different things. Just like racism and whites are two different things. You can be white and anti-racist and male and anti-sexist.

      Conservatives generally tend to be more hierarchal, regardless of gender so, if women were running things, some of them would be more hierarchal. There certainly are racist white women. And they would want to put down women of color. Racism and sexism seem to be based on insecurity and wanting to feel like you were better than someone else. When you have higher self-esteem, you don’t have to put other people down to feel like you are building yourself up. And since the racism and sexism don’t get at the root problem, putting others down won’t build you up in any real way that is real or durable.

      So since there are toxic patriarchal women like MTG or your nutty manager, for sure, the world would’t be better just because women were running it.

      • Yeah, she doesn’t even know the mercy I had on her. She did things that were against policy which she abused her power. And while I shrugged it off. I remember thinking, technically she sexually harassed me. She only said the comment one time and even tho she was joking, it was still gross because she’s crappy person and she’s old and ugly son of a bitch. I don’t care saying that because she was an asshole. I normally wouldn’;t say that for many ppl even if they were um rough on the eyes. But since she was a shitty person, I don’t feel bad.

        Anyway, one time she had time off which she used for this event or party she was going to for her girl friends. I mean I couldn’t figure what it was at first because she’s in her late 50s, so my mind initially didn’t think bachelorette party. And tha’ts because most ppl marry before 50 for sure. But makes me wonder if this was one of her friend’s 2nd or 3rd marriage and I guess would still have a bachelorette party idk. Anyway she randomly mentioned how I’d make a lot of $ stripping at this party. She was joking but it felt she really meant it. I guess she assumed because she’s a woman it’s fine or I should take it as a compliment. But I was kind of grossed about the thought of her thinking that. Oh yeah nothing more I’d love than doing that in front of ugly old ladies…..Not (obvious sarcasm). I shrugged it off tho and she never said that again.

        But I remember, if I said that same thing to a female co worker, even if I was joking, my ass would be at HR in a millisecond ha. I’d either be fired or suspended, written up or some kind of punishment or definitely reported and rightfully so. I wasn’t the only one tho. She joked about that to another guy in my department. This was a situation I wish I wasn’t handsome I guess, as the other guy she said this too was a good looking guy, he lifts weights. So she picked the younger handsome guys of the group, he and I. It bothered him too of course. He was a nice guy, we were like friends at work, very likeable guy. It’s too

      • I am sorry you had to have such a rotten boss. I suppose her treatment gave you some insight into why women dislike experiencing sexual objectification. And we see how the problem isn’t just an issue of men, but people who are hurt and harm others in return. Of course, patriarchy leads to a higher percentage of this sort of behavior among men, but it isn’t really a man trait. It’s more cultural.

        I hope that writing about the experience is cathartic for you. Gives you some sense of release and relief.

  4. I love your thoughtful questions.”

    Another thing came to my mind when talking about people’s ability to control and be controlled as well as perhaps the capacity for being power hungry. I believe the world can definitely use more women as leaders whether president, or prime minister depending on the country and title. I mean this like equal, not lopsided with all or most female leaders in the world. I believe men and women provide different benefits and like yin and yang. There’s a lot of bad that comes from some male leaders, it’s very obvious in the past and now. But since men are here the patriarchal values you said is in most cultures, that wouldn’t just vanish even if some apocalypse event happened where a great population of men died off. Not all, but a drastic loss, yet women weren’t affected some reason. Therefore, society leadership was placed more on women as a result. A position of power or burden women haven’t been in, in most situations I think since beginning of man kind, because population has mostly been 50/50 ish since forever. There are far right women and women who right now carry patriachal views now. To get to the point, We know trump is a pos, and Desantis too. But think if Marjorie Green was president. She’s freakin nuts. All the toxic stuff she spews out.

    Not saying you, but it seems like there’s this assumptive notion that things would be utopian if women ran things and men not. But since patriarchal things would still be in many cultures, there’s a good chance women like marjorie would carry over the similar or same things the corrupt male leaders did. It would probably be different, but not much different. I believe not just men but power can corrupt humans and not something women are automatically immune too. There are plenty of women who can be power hungry. Even if most ppl aren’;t power hungry, sometimes it;s the more ruthless assertive ppl who make their way to the top, so it wouldn’t be a suprise that woman would be in a leadership role just like a guy from that assertive nature to beat out other candidates who are not as assertive. Which points to me not being so sure the world would be completely peaceful and war free. Like I said if women like marjorie green were leaders, I’m not so sure. Would there be a hierarchy with far right women, straight, white that would be at the top of the totem pole and therefore there still would be oppression, but women of color at the bottom of the totem pole? So racial bias or racism still existing even if men are secondary in leadership now?

    People often ask about leadership and how would that go. I think balance with men and women is good, as I said the yin and yang, but I believe it’s often the individual that matters more. You want a glimpse of that? Look at the micro level, not macro. In the work force wouldn’t you say managers are in authority, leadership roles? From my work history, I’ve had men and women as managers. Some male managers and supervisors I didn’t care about or upset me. Some of the nicest managers I liked and cared about were male managers too. I shop at a place I work at in my 20s and see the store manager there sometimes and we have long talks sometimes if he sees me about how each other are doing. Really nice guy, it wasn’t just me but employees like him. I’ve had women as managers too. Some I was neutral about and some I liked, one was young, she was not a pushover, but very fair. She was attractive too ha, but she was good to employees and would help out if you had questions or needed help. I miss her, she transferred to another store a few years ago. I also had a woman manager one time, who nobody liked. I work hard, I’m likeable, I rarely call out. That’s why most managers like me even if other works don’t like the manager, whether male or female manager. I think she liked me as a worker, but she was a mean, nasty person. None of the employees liked her, men and women. Her nickname was little dictator if that gives an indicator. She was a short little shit lol, late 50s. I made workers left when I called her scrappy doo.

  5. “So people are also tribal, and that can be helpful in some ways. For example, communities that stick together are more likely to survive, than individuals all acting on their own.”

    It makes sense for people to be tribal, but interesting why some are more tribal than others. That makes sense that being a unit works more than ppl all acting on their own. Selfish societies and ppl certainly don’t strive as it’s often needed to have ppl working together to keep things going and sustain. But the interesting thing is people who are tribal doesn’t mean they are selfless or acting for the interest for others. It can be for others but many others may want to unify with others in their political beliefs, but it’s for benefitting themselves and not others. So you can have ppl that tribal aspect believe all the same stuff, but kind of using each other and out for themselves. Often it’s character, not tribalism that makes a person’s unified intent to genuinely help others instead of themselves. Interesting enough ppl going their own way could also want to unify with others, but they weight in on things first and not having “sides”, but what’s best.

    I have tribal part of me with how I bond with others around me and try to find common things to connect with. But I can at the same time be wary of the motives of policies or see through it all and not have a blind bias. Basically see how things play out before I commit to a policy or politician no matter if they are republican or democrat. I have tribal aspect for the fact I’m a sports fan. I like to watch sports, I’ve been an nfl fan since I was a teenager. I like the miami dolphins. And that;s definitely tribal and why people are fans of teams. It puts ppl together rooting for same team even though they come from different backgrounds, different races, genders, age, gender, etc.

    It also brings out that point you make tho about tribalism and makes me wonder if there is a personality thing or how ppl are brough up regarding tribalism with sports. Idk if you’ve noticed there’s a sub section of fans that getting a little to crazy for their sports team and take things too seriously lol. Like I’m upset when my team loses but then you have some fans that break stuff, get in fights at stadiums or bars from their team losing or starting crap with opposing fan, throw things on the field, and riots their team wins it all destroying property downtown in the city. I never understood why some fans have to destroy stuff when their team won it all and you’d think would be happy but have to be lunatics about it. I hate to say it, since I’m a man….but probably 90% of those fans are…..male lol. I mean I know and have seen female fans get really upset and stupid too. So my point is about being overly emotional about it, which I’ve seen women be that way too. BUT it show certain ppl can be more prone maybe from their personality to be more “passionate” with a cause whether it’s the qanon, makes me think of the correlation of the rabid trump supporters to rabid sports fans, if they both have something psychologically in common.

    • OK, I’m going to address the first of your comments today, and I will eventually get to all of them. And they are interesting question so I am happy to do it, but this will take some time.

      Yes, some people are more trouble than others. Classical conservatives on the right are the most tribal while libertarians on the right are probably the least tribal. So that’s an interesting combination of the right wing. You have two groups that call themselves conservatives who are possibly the most at odds in some ways. Since libertarians are all about the individual and not relying on anyone. Yet both classic conservatives and liberals do care about communities. Classic conservatives care about communities they are close to: their family, neighborhood, their city, people of their color/ethnicity. Whereas liberals care about people on the other side of the planet. People who are a different color, etc. But both of these groups do care about communities.

      Because conservatives are tribal, they could be working in the interest of others, but others who they identify as themselves — so in the end helping themselves. And that may be what they have in common with libertarians. Whereas generally are working in the interest of others outside their tribe. That said, conservatives will make greater sacrifices for others compared with liberals. But again, they are identifying these others as themselves. But they do still make a personal sacrifice.

      To some degree how conservative or liberal we are, or libertarian, seems to be dependent on genes. There’s a continuum with about half of humans on one side and half on the other, and you find this cross culturally. That said, culture also plays a role. People raised in Alabama will be more conservative than your average, American, and someone raised in Berkeley will be more liberal than your average American. So the ideas floating around you have effects. And culture probably affects people more in the middle than at the extremes.

      And I suspect that we all are a mix, but lean, generally, or on major issues, more one way than another. And I suspect that people in the center more easily see both sides. I actually suspect that my natural temperament is more of a centerist yet lean liberal because I care a lot about social justice. But being in the center helps me to see both sides and see positives on both sides.

      The more tribal, you are the more upset you get when your team doesn’t win. But even the less tribal will tend to want their team to win. And that’s probably adaptive for your own survival. But destroying things when your team wins, really doesn’t make sense to me. There’s so much energy and you don’t know what to do with it? You’d think someone could be more creative than destroying stuff. Wondering why you like the Miami Dolphins?

      Yeah, rabid sports fans and rabid Trump followers have this common tie of being super tribal.

      • I like the miami dolphins because of my older sister. It’s funny as a younger sibling, I couldn’t help watch and follow what she was watching. She liked the miami dolphins so they were on tv so I just naturally watched and ended up rooting for them too. And the other reason I like them and she did too was because of Dan Marino. He was just fun to watch. It just like art in motion the way he could pass the ball. A hall of fame qb, but just one of the best passers of all time. It’s too bad he never won a superbowl, but he made the team fun to watch. And it followed where I continued to like miami after he retired. Unfortunately they’ve had a hard time finding a qb to be good or great after him. It;s really hard to find a good qb or great one in the league.

        Miami seems like they might have a guy with Tua Tagavailoa. If you can’t tell by his name, it’s polynesian. He’s played well and seems like a good dude so its easy to root for him, but he’s had injuries and not able to play whole season. So there’s uncertainty if he’ll stay healthy this season and if he can’t his career might not last long which would be unfortunate for miami and him. So i’m hoping he doesn;t get hurt this season. He had a brutal concussion on a thursday night game which many saw, it was really sad and felt bad for him. It even had mainstream news where non sports fans even knew of it. Idk if you saw that or not. But my heart was out for the guy, he had a scary concussion where he had what’s called a “Fencing pose” where his fingers were like crossed by locked, it was sad and scary to see.

      • Thanks for filling me in. I was curious because I don’t believe you are from Florida. Was wondering if the sun and sand that suggest optimism and fun might be part of the draw.

  6. I know this isn’t about abortion, but it’s easier for me to find my comments and your replies on the most recent post. How about the conservatives focusing on the shooter being trans over the issues of guns. So annoying. This is sad. I guess the shooter got guns legally from 7 different gun shops in Tennessee. I don’t see the point of assault rifles, it’s annoying with far right getting pissed. They say thoughts and prayers Bs, but they don’t really care. An american citizen does not need automatic assault rifles, there’s no need to be rambo. I don’t see how background checks stops law abiding citizens from getting guns. The point of this is to prevent criminals from not getting them easily. I do believe they can still get them from the black market, but why make it easier? I here that complaint from conservatives about how it punishes law abiding citizens from getting guns and hard to get bullets or pricier etc. Idk something has to happen tho.

    .Tired of the politicians saying they are sad but do nothing. I do wonder how a background check works if someone is mentally unstable tho. Don’t background checks go based on previous crimes? What if someone is not right in the head but haven’t done any crimes at the time nor seen anyone to be diagnosed for mental disorder? What if it’s silently brewing inside, like a simmering volcano that nobody knows? So they slip through the cracks and can get a gun legally even if with background checks? Do these have a mental stability part? I believe it is as far as background checks go or should be for someone bipiolar to not be allowed to buy a gun. The reason I say that is not because I think someone will go on a shooting spree on ppl. I know ppl who are bi polar and they aren;t harming ppl. Some can because of the emotional outburst they can have if not on medication. But my understand is ppl bi polar can have the greater chance or often have depression or deep depression and possibly suicidal. It would be reckless in their hands on a weapon they may more likely use to kill themselves because of tendency to be suicidal over another without mental disorders. Actually probably a bad idea of ppl clinically depressed and suicidal getting guns too

    • Hi Bob! The far right is full of contradictions. They think books are dangerous to children, but aren’t worried about kids being shot. They say are pro-life, but don’t care about kids being shot. They say they are pro-life, but don’t vote against “Obamacare“ Medicare and Medicaid that saves lives.

      Thoughts and prayers and trying to distract about a trans person will work with the base I suppose but not everyone else.

      And considering that most NRA members are for sensible gun regulation, it’s really about the $$$ the NRA gives them for campaign contributions.

      I googled about background checks for mental health and saw that with the exception of some states mental health records relevant to gun ownership can be accessed. I’m sure it’s not the whole file which would be confidential, but more like a red flag regarding guns.

      I know that in Australia after a mass shooting the country combined gun regulations with gun buybacks, and they haven’t had mass shooting problems since then.

      Since the US is the only wealthy nation with a mass shooting problem, and I believe the only nation at all with a mass shooting Problem, we know that regulation and buybacks could address the problem. Just do what other countries do.

      • You know what’s really interesting and I wonder what the correlation Is between human psychology and politics. What I mean is, it seems like so many ppl or in human nature for ppl to want to believe only what they want to hear no matter the facts or evidence that should counter their beliefs. I find if interesting for the human species that are the most intelligent species right? Can be mind controlled so easily because of what I just said or makes me wonder if it’s a personality trait for some ppl more likely to have a cult like or hive mindset.

        It’s interesting because this isn’t just low intelligence or uneducated ppl or just average intelligence ppl. But actually very smart ppl that can get pulled into this rhetoric. I know ppl who are basically genius level iq who liked trump. But likewise there are many who can be too naive for some stuff on the far left. Tho I feel far right Is worse because far right is more about control.

        It’s weird because I feel I am quite intelligent, but I’m not a genius. Yet. The fact I don’t get duped and can see through things others apparently can’t makes me feel very smart ha. Yes I can be deceived anybody can be. But that’s regarding, say me not being mechanically inclined and a sales man tricked me on a car I thought was in good condition or something. That could happen tho I have
        Best friend come with me if I’m looking for a car to prevent that as he used to work as a car salesman a long time ago and he has good knowledge on cars.

        I’m talking about how it’s hard for me to be duped politically, idk if it’s because I’m a free thinker but I can see through bull shit.

      • And as I was thinking about that. I saw something on tv about an old scandal in early 90s of televangelist jim Bakker. Just the con man he was and that stuff. My family is catholic. I do question a lot of things but I’m catholic . I question a lot of things but what I connect with religion is the spiritual part and faith. But there’s so much propaganda and misuse from powerful ppl using it like jim Bakker. But I find it so interesting like politics how so many ppl can be blinded of its manipulation.

        That church or thing like others would promise good deeds and more goodness from god, if $ was sent In. The more $ sent in the more goodness from god was promised by him and the like. Yet ppl were sending tons of $. I wonder what it is, it can’t be just dumb ppl, there most likely were high iq ppl doing this too just like how I brought up smart ppl for trump. What is it In a person’s personality that makes some more prone to manipulate or get hooked into ones political rhetoric? Is it a lack of purpose? Belonging? Loneliness? Insecurities? I wonder if like a past trauma or hardship makes certain ppl more vulnerable to manipulation especially in the religious aspect. Like Even if I like the sound of something politically, I have to question it. I just don’t blindly go with it just because it’s what I might want to hear. Idk, I don’t get it. Maybe it’s because I’m introspective.

      • I love your thoughtful questions.

        Last year I wasn’t planning to see the Oscar nominated movie “Nightmare Alley“ until I listened to an interview with the Director. He said it was largely about people believing what they wanted to believe. The movie was about a ConMan/confidence Man” who gains the trust of people, and basically figures out what they want to hear and tells it to them. The director talked about how it reflected the politics of our time.

        It’s a perfect fit between Trump and his base. The largest plurality of people in the US are socially conservative and fiscally liberal, but no one was representing them. Democrats are both physically and socially liberal, while Republicans had always been socially and fiscally conservative. So Trump pays people to listen to right wing radio and then it goes back what they want to hear. And that was a mix of social conservatism and fiscal liberalism. But then he governs like a typical Republican. But the people didn’t notice largely, because he distracted them with the culture war. But so many people were so hungry for someone who said they would represent their interests that they are bound to be determined to believe what the leader tells them.

        I’m sure the same thing works with televangelists telling people that if they just give you the money that the people will prosper. It sounds like an easy way to make money and people want to believe that it’s really that easy. And being tribal, they trust people of their tribe, who in this case they are seen as people of God. So, of course they can trust them.

        So people are also tribal, and that can be helpful in some ways. For example, communities that stick together are more likely to survive, than individuals all acting on their own. Which is probably why a small minority , And that can be helpful in some ways. For example, communities that stick together are more likely to survive than individuals all acting on their own. Which is probably why a small minority of the population is libertarian. people with that personality were less likely to survive and Reproduce, apparently. But the downside is, you can all go off a cliff by not thinking for yourself.

        Research has shown that if you tell Republicans that a particular stand is Republican (even though it may be Democratic), they are more likely to agree with it. And vice versa for Democrats.

        But research has also shown that conservatives are more tribal than other political persuasions. They like a lot of stability, and will tend to stick with their beliefs through thick and thin. So some of it seems to be genetic. And again, there can be advantages to sticking with your group and being loyal. Unless you all go off a cliff. Like think you have found a perfect leader who is authoritarian, but then the people lose their power and discover too late that their authoritarian leader is out for themselves, and not for his or her supporters.

        Loneliness does seem to be part of the sheep following a wolf in sheep‘s clothing. People can feel isolated and seek community. So something like QAnon gives them instant community. A sense of belonging. And they also seem to want to feel a sense of purpose in making a better society. And in an effortless way way. So a QAnon follower who is conservative might feel they are doing something by just following the QAnon plot while a liberal might feel a similar sense of having done something righteous while exerting almost no effort by watching “Gandhi.“

        And looking at trauma, I recall research showing that people who were raised by abusive parents often are susceptible to authoritarian/abusive leaders. I imagine that could be true of other types of trauma as well.

        I have experienced times when I wanted to believe something because that’s what my tribe said but at the same time, I don’t want to believe things that are false, and so I make an effort to think through issues as much as I can, rather than being blindly led.

      • Hey Bob, I glanced over your questions — which are very interesting — and I will be answering them sometime this weekend. I am traveling right now and it will be easier when I’m back with my big computer and not just an iPhone.

        Hope all is well.

  7. Well how about that? Democrats have control of senate. Things need to get better and not perfect, but funny how conservative media and politicians all thought there would be a red wave. And ppl before wanted to push aside all the corrupt things about trump they didn’t believe trump has done and it’s “fake news”. Well gop was riding trumps coattails and got burned. The one’s tied to him all lost or most. And supreme court over turning roe vs wade caused more democrats voted when things were set to go other way because of inflation (tho there’s nothing magical republicans would do to fix it). Seems like karma showed up on the conservatives. They pissed a lot of ppl off and not just democrats but middle voters and even some other republicans who aren’t far right nuts. Republicans looks to win the house, but still counting I believe, but you never know. I guess California is where things will be settled or left

    • The election is a relief for me.

      Many wealthy donors to the Republican Party prefer plutocracy (rule of rich) over democracy, and they seem to think that voters worry more about their pocketbooks than being able to vote people out via democracy. While plenty of Republicans are willing to take that risk, enough Republicans and independents didn’t.*

      And there’s the lighter point that while GOP kept complaining about inflation, they never offered any plan for fighting it.

      Trump has lost three elections. Looks like the GOP can’t win with him or without him. If I were them I would just take the hit and get rid of him and restructure the party. Without him and his ilk, GOP probably would’ve had a red wave.

      Inflation right now is a global problem faced by every industrialized country . But the people of each of these countries believe that their leader is the problem. [China is an exception due to economic contraction from strict Covid policy + price controls. Japan is the other exception as they have been struggling with deflation for years.]

      During Covid people weren’t traveling much and gas prices plummeted. They weren’t spending much either. Now people are anxious to get back out there and it’s putting a lot of pressure on prices — oil and otherwise.

      Plus, supply chains had been running efficiently until Covid, when everything shut down and people switched their buying habits, and are now switching again post-Covid, but not back to their pre-Covid patterns, which is throwing off the whole system.

      Plus, war in Ukraine is making matters worse by raising prices of wheat (Ukraine is a bread basket) and oil, due to the sanctions on Russia. And now OPEC wants to raise gas prices.

      Meanwhile, US oil interests are reluctant to drill for more oil because they fear that prices will plummet again and they will lose profit.

      Biden has tapped into the strategic oil reserve but there are worries about tapping too deeply into power reserve.

      And the US can’t be energy independent using oil because oil goes on the global market, and no president has control over that. The only way we can be energy independent is through renewables like solar and wind. Or nuclear. (Maybe hydrogen? IDK) Biden’s Inflation Reduction plan does help with this. Republicans would try to overturn it because they are beholden to oil interests.

  8. handsomeoutlawbradyhawkesjr

    Because the world is a screwed-up patriarchy. If we lads could bear children,abortion would be a sacrament not a (especially in the U.S goober states) crime.

  9. This is so messed up what happened. I’m catholic and I’ve never saw abortion lightly. It’s something I hope is very last resort, like serious, like rape or health issues or something where child would not survive because of mother’s circumstance. Hopefully not because of inconvenience and because having a child get’s in the way of the life the mother wants. I believe it’s much more often the former than latter for women. But banning it doesn’t prevent it like others have said, so this just punishes women. The focus should be prevention, meaning creating the society where women abort at the lowest rate as possible. There are a lot of ultra conservatives which were happy about roe vs wade being over turned. However, I think and hope we’re going to see karma. I’ve already read reports some in the gop and trump himself expressed regrets of setting the situation where roe vs wade got overturned. Not because trump or gop care about women.

    But they maybe came to realization that this goal of there’s might have just punched them back in the face. Without this, republicans probably had a good chance of being voted in for midterms. It’s not true or right but democrats have been blamed for gas prices, inflation, the war, etc. So People upset even if they were in the middle might have voted R to try to see if that will make a difference. Now with this, I see this going back to many ppl choosing democrat back again out of being pissed off about this. They are learning that his pissed off A LOT of people particularly women. And not just liberal women, but I just seem from facebook, many women who are also independent, moderate but also republican. I’ve seen women who have agreed with a lot of conservative policies in the past or maybe for trump, but who were pissed about this over turn. I told my friend who wants a republican governor to get voted in, that this ruling might have just caught him from getting it. BEcause while he hasn’t talked about abortion, people may not trust that he will keep things or they may feel they can;t trust him to not ban abortion or severe restrictions. They just single handedly motivated people to vote or who may not come out to vote as much before such as people on the fence or in the middle as a result of this. The GOP better get ready, women remember and they are coming with a vengeance come mid terms and probably when voting comes for state governors too.

    • Yeah, laws against abortion have very little effect on abortion rates as desperate girls and women find ways to abort. And when it’s not safe and legal too many of them die trying.

      And I wonder how much people realize that the Republicans have no secret plan to fight inflation. Inflation is global, due mostly to buying patterns changing post-Covid with supply chains having a difficult time adjusting to the new patterns where people buy more product and less services. Plus the Russian War effect on gas prices.

      I hope people realize this.

      And yes, the best thing to do is prevent pregnancy. And now Justice Thomas (such a misnomer) wants to get rid of birth control.

      The countries with the lowest abortion rates have sex education and easily available contraception. Both things that this court would not like.

      • My friends may be gullible, but they don’t believe he’d try to ban birth control. They feel it would be career suicide for him and him being voted out. I feel even conservatives would be pissed if that happened. Because even couples in committed relationships want sex for many reasons and not having to do with a baby. If you cant’ have access to birth control, then any sex would be risky in causing pregnancy. Even very conservative ppl with conservative views don’t want sex once a year or minimal which it would have to be as any sex would have a great chance of causing pregnancy without the woman usiing birth control. Many couples wear condoms and the woman uses birth control so they don’t have kids when they are not ready or they had as many as they want but don’t want anymore, but obviously still want to have sex with each other. I swear to god this assholes want people to live like they are puritan, celibate nuns or something. Sex is not bad, but that’s the problem with fundamental religious consevatives who have repressed outdated views on sex and relationships

      • Yeah, I grew up in a conservative Mormon environment and even though the Mormon church officially discourages birth control I don’t know hardly anyone who doesn’t use it. It’s like these guys have a death wish for the Republican Party. So much to run against. Meanwhile Republicans will need to be asked about their secret plan to fight inflation.

      • These idiot republicans could be the cause of the fracture of our on very united states, Makes me think Russia is connected even more to some republicans as it seems like the workings to break up the united States. There’s so much going on, The US is strong from being United and Russia would love US broken up. But if this continues, I could see a legal civil war withing Red and blue states. A bill was denied by republicans who blocked a travel health care bill to protect women leaving red states that have an abortion ban going to another state where it’s legal. I though roe was overturned so it could go to the states? It was obvious the BS republicans were saying. Well sounds like they are trying to give a federal rule or help maintain red states to being able to punish women even if they are having abortions where it’s legal. There’s no reason for that crap, it’s treating women like fugitives or a fugitive act. Sure opens a can of worms to other things. But this right here will cause a civil war, because I can see Governors like Newsom of your state, I think it said you’re from California and my state of ny with Hochul. If they see women going to their state to have an abortion coming from a red state where it’s illegal, but women are being punished when they return. I could see governors like Hochul and Newsom getting pissed and legally challenging such states. This will cause a war. Will the US break up as a country from a futher divide where states are so apart on views and conflict that it’s broken up?

      • Yeah, the whole pro-life thing doesn’t seem very pro-life since they aren’t Pro life on any other issue. Instead, they seem intent on punishing women. And turning us authoritarian. Join the authoritarians who fear democracy to those who seek theocracy seems to be the plan. I don’t think the US could survive that because I don’t think the blue states would put up with it. (The rich Who fear democracy fear that the people will vote to give the money of the rich to the poor, which I don’t think is likely, but they are pretty fearful). And the first step authoritarians tend to take is limiting women. It gets everyone in the mindset of limiting the people. And the Russians are supporting some Republicans like Trump. So you see the Russian and American oligarchs joining. and then you see a bunch of working class people who love Trump and can’t see that Trump and the oligarchs want to advantage themselves over the working people. They try to distract by getting them enraged over cultural issues so they don’t notice the huge redistribution of wealth that is rising from the middle class to the top. I have written about this elsewhere. Here https://broadblogs.com/2017/02/17/the-wealthy-trump-the-working-class/ and here https://broadblogs.com/2012/11/02/vote-to-help-the-rich-hurt-yourself/ and here https://broadblogs.com/2020/12/01/why-the-hostility-to-black-lives/

  10. The recent regulations and laws are really appalling, and you say it well: “anti-abortion laws look more like misogyny than efforts to save lives.” As a man, I’ve always felt strange how “we” are the ones making arbitrary rules and regulations regarding something that only women are qualified to make.

      • Unfortunately there are also a ton of women making rules that go against women and their interest too. You think Clarence thomas is a pos, his wife agrees with his views and is even nuttier. She’s been pushing things under the radar and with other politicians. She’s been aggressive trying to push her radical right wing activism. It’s not so much having more women in leadership roles, but the right women. Yes there are more men in the supreme court. But just think of the supreme court was filled with women like ginni thomas and Marjorie Green? Holy crap she’s an idiot and ironically you can have conservative women worse than conservative men or even harsher on women’s rights.

      • Yeah, I got interested in sociological social psychology because it answered my question about why women often fought against their own interests — Like friends and family in the patriarchal church I grew up in. And I’ve written about it:

        Why do women fight against their own interests? https://broadblogs.com/2016/01/01/why-do-women-fight-their-interests/

        I have a couple more things to add to this so I might update it. And maybe sooner rather than later given what’s happening. Thanks for the idea.

  11. Regarding abortion, I’ve never considered how guys are never questioned and let off the hook so easily. It’s ludicrous that only the female gets punished as if women select abortion as their primary contraceptive. Men should also be penalized. There is no reason why the man should be let off the hook because, as the article states, “it takes two to tango.” I agree that if women are held responsible for abortion, men must also be held accountable. Because women do not become pregnant on their own, if women are arrested for abortions, males must also be arrested. I oppose anti-abortion legislation because I believe every woman should be able to choose whether or not to have an abortion.

  12. I have never thought about how men are never questioned and are left off the hook so easily when it comes to abortion. Which is why this topic interested me a lot because like the beginning of the blog states, it takes two people to create a child and fingers are always pointed towards the women when they get pregnant but never the man. It has always been much easier for the man to walk away and leave the woman who they got pregnant with the child and most of the time not even care what happens to their child or the women. Why are men being left off the hook like this and not being punished at all for it.

  13. It’s very absurd that the female is the only one being punished as if women choose abortion to be a primary contraceptive. Men should be punished as well. Like the articles says ‘it takes two to tango” there is no reason why the male should be left off the hook. These anti-abortion laws are coming off very misogynist. Male impregnates female, female has abortion, female gets punished and male walks off scott free. I don’t agree with the laws of anti-abortion being passed but I do agree with holding both partners accountable and not just the female. Women are not impregnated themselves here..

  14. This post was really important because the truth is that women suffer all of the consequences and men are left off the hook and that is just infuriating. The post talks about how in some states women have a heavier sentences for getting an abortion than their rapists do for raping and impregnating them. This fact is absolutely sickening. I feel for all the women who have been in this situation and have to suffer the trauma that they do and then on top of that to know that their government cares more about protecting their rapist than themselves.

  15. I completely agree that if women are held liable for abortion, males must be held responsible as well. Women don’t get impregnated on their own, thus if women are arrested for abortions, the males must be arrested as well. I disagree with legislation prohibiting contraceptives because I think that every woman should be able to choose whether or not to have an abortion. Every woman should be entitled to choose to have an abortion without fear of repercussions. If it is, nevertheless, unlawful, all individuals must be held liable. After reviewing the provided list of male implications, I believe the following are worthwhile consideration.

  16. I found this post to contain many interesting points and suggestions. The men are just as responsible for their actions and those actions should also have the consequences women face. I agree that many anti-abortion laws seem to be passed in order to perpetuate misogyny instead of being intended to actually save the lives of unborn children. The over regulation of women like the law that could require women to take a pregnancy test to leave the state is very intimidating to consider.

  17. The most interesting thing to note about the abortion restrictions for women is the fact that in certain states if a women gets an aboriton or miscarries she might legally become a criminal through prosecution. The reason that is interesting is because criminals can’t vote. Now I know that this may just be a coincidence but if you look at the states that are currently making abortions barely legal, it coincides with anger towards women and obviously democrats that Trump didnt win the 2020 election. Statistically speaking some articles came out after the 2020 election that women had voted more than ever that year and it might be a reason that some states turned blue. There is also the fact that many of the states making abortions very hard to get, are ones that love to make laws surounding religion. It just leaves me unsettled everytime I think about the fact that the laws that many men are trying to pass in these states would make women criminals, who can’t vote, for miscarrying or making a tough decision and getting an abortion.

  18. I find this topic interesting. The author is right when he said “it takes two to tango.” Making a baby is a two people job so why are they punishing the women for abortion and the men are off the hook. They should also punished the men as well for impregnating the women and when they feel, they are not ready to start a family and be a mother. They will think of giving up the baby and have an abortion or they can just give birth to the baby but give them up for adoption. I like one of the suggestion that people have make regarding punishing men for women abortion. They suggested that the rapist should get a life sentence for raping young women and girls because this is not a choice. The young women and girls did not get a choice in the matter of having the baby and many of these young girls are probably under age and don’t know what to do with the baby. They are just not mental stable to have a baby and be a mother since many of them might still be going to school.

  19. “If you outlaw abortions, they will just happen illegally”….
    “But if you outlaw guns, we will be magically safe from gun crime”.

    • You make an interesting point but we actually have data on this and it’s not as equivalent as one might expect.

      In places where abortion is outlawed, desperate women and girls go underground or try to do it themselves so that both fetus and mother end up dying at a higher rate than when abortion is legal and safe. That’s the main reason I am against laws against abortion.

      On the other hand, if you outlaw guns people are less desperate to get them. People who are desperate to kill like get a knife, which is less deadly. Or use their fists, again which is less deadly.

      But in countries that have strict gun laws there are hardly any mass murders compared to us.

      • It makes me wonder if it’s a psychological reason for that though. Mass shooters are often loners, so I think they fit a different mental profile to gang members. Both killers, but different ways of going about things. It’s like how serial killers are often loners too in prison whereas, gang members are cold hearted killers, but they are more “social” because they connect and come in groups with other gangs. Gangs are like a wolf pack, whereas, serial killers and perhaps mass shooters are “lone wolf?” Fred makes a good point about that though. Guns being illegal doesn’t stop killers from getting guns or else gangs and cartels would not have guns. It doesn’t stop murders and homicides from such as most of the guns owned by these men are from the black market or illegally. But perhaps gun restriction would limit mass shooters from getting them like gangsters do, because mass shooters are loners who would rather get them at the shop and not have to connect or meet with gangsters to buy black market guns?

      • Doing gun laws state by state isn’t as effective as nationwide, because it does make a black market much easier.

        It sounds like they are going to pass a red flag law, which I think is very important. Because if someone is talking on Facebook or in a school paper about how they want to kill everyone I think they should be flagged.

        Mental health would certainly also help but the same people who don’t want to have any gun safety laws don’t seem to want to fundamental health either. Make up your mind, I say!

  20. I agree with this completely I think if people are going to take action like this on women then it should be equal and men should be going through this as well. Men should also be taken accountable for their actions as well, and the list that was given on what men could be punished with is so smart and it should be that way because sadly they get it so easy and we as women don’t and that is the reality and men should be facing the same or worst punishments such as what they want to punish women for. The part that talks about the guns and how it should be the same as buying a gun to getting an aborition should be mandetated as well because it is so easy for a man to buy a gun without any of those things listed needed and for a women to get an abortion it is literally going to be hell and almost impossible, it should seriously be equal.

  21. I one hundred percent agree that if women are to be held accountable for abortion, then the men should be as well. Women aren’t getting themselves pregnant so if they get in trouble for abortions then the men need to be too. I don’t agree with the laws being passed on banning abortions because I believe that every woman should have the option of getting an abortion. Getting an abortion should be a choice available to every woman without consequences. However, if it is illegal then all parties need to be held accountable. After reading the list of consequences for men that people suggested I think that the following are worth considering. I believe that automatic child support from the fathers of the child should be paid. I also believe that the men should pay for half of the costs of prenatal care and hospital care. I believe that women should have the right to sue the man that impregnated her and didn’t take part in raising the baby especially if she didn’t want to have a baby and didn’t have the option of abortion. I especially believe that men who rape women and get them pregnant should spend life in prison or the be sentenced to death. I believe that is valid because for someone to rape someone it is very inhumane and wrong, and they should be held accountable to the worst degree.

  22. Virginity was invented to stop women from having sex. Abortion bans are implemented to stop women from enjoying sex. Slut-shaming is enforced to stop women from consenting to sex. And when you don’t believe that women should have, enjoy, and consent to sex; you also won’t believe that a woman expressing her sexuality in any way- is doing it, not for you, but for herself. – Farida D.

  23. “$10,000 bounty for turning in men who impregnate leading to abortion “… I’m confused, how does impregnation lead to abortion? It leads to the opposite of abortion, a new life.

    “Automatic child support”… I’m confused, this already exists

    “Sue men for the cost of raising a child to age 18″… I’m confused, it’s called child support.

    “Sue men for pain and suffering if they avoid helping to raise their child”… if they somehow can avoid child support, how will you sue them?

    “How about we treat every man who wants to buy a gun like every woman who wants to get an abortion?”

    Are you suggesting that women wanting a gun shouldn’t have to wait, and men wanting an abortion should be treated differently?

    • Impregnation may or may not lead to abortion. I wrote, “Third-party vigilantes can collect a $10,000 bounty for turning in men who impregnate leading to abortion”

      Meaning if the pregnancy leads to abortion the man should be punished too.

      On your next two points I am sure that that is true, at least in many states.

      On your next point, I guess they’ll have to figure out how to better track them down.

      On your final point, nope. I’m suggesting that men buying guns (they are almost always the mass murderers) should be treated the same as women trying to get abortions in states that ban them.

  24. Read together with your previous post, it is sad to see such regressive pieces of legislation even in the US, still blind to the havoc played out by school-going teens with guns in their pockets and the unhealthy impact of out-of-the-ark regulations on medical termination of pregnancies. There are no quick fixes and these problems are not going to be resolved by the males; the way forward is for women to organise themselves to achieve greater equity and a better quality of life.

    • It wasn’t so long ago that I had thought there wouldn’t be much to fight for much longer as we would have made so much progress. Boy was I wrong! We’ve got quite the backlash going on in the US. Mostly older folks. Guess we will have to wait for them to die off.

  25. I saw that FB post and loved it. Being from Canada it’s really difficult to understand what is happening in the US with more guns but fewer abortions. Love your post. Maggie

  26. I read recently about protests outside abortion clinics in the UK. I agree with protests, but not when it comes to surgery that anyone, male or female, elects to have done. No exceptions, it is their body, their choice.

    If a woman down the end of my road, or in my town, or in my country, or any country in the world, chooses to have an abortion, they have their reasons. Those reasons are none of my business whatsoever. Their actions will have no effect on my life. People make choices about what they consider is the best for any situation, there are times when they may regret a decision, who hasn’t, but any personal decision is theirs alone.

    It really infuriates me when people use abortion for their political agenda, or use their religious beliefs, to justify denying women the freedom to decide the best course of action that should take. I abhor people who want to control other people, or inflict their own beliefs upon them. Too many people like playing God.

  27. It’s truly unfortunate to see how far our country is regressing toward an America that didn’t value a women’s right to control her bodily autonomy. The current state of our country, in general, is on a steady decline when it comes to the protection of its citizens and their well-being. On the one hand, we see lawmakers punish women for wanting to get rid of unwanted pregnancies, yet do nothing to save the adolescents dying at their desks in underfunded schools. We see the condemnation of women for having unprotected sex, yet instead of instilling better SexEd in schools and funding/creating more organizations like Planned Parenthood–which do more for women’s health beyond abortions and pregnancies– legislatures are punishing women, forcing them to carry a burden—preaching pro-life with little regard to how they’re impacting the life of an individual with actual feelings/cognitive functions and fully developed organs. The double standard that exists and pertains to many facets of life regarding men and women is deplorable, and it’s like certain individuals are forgetting that a woman wouldn’t be pregnant without the fertilization of her eggs, which is what a man does when ejaculating. For that reason alone, to place all the blame and punishment on women is unacceptable. It goes to show the lengths to which men and the patriarchy will go before owning up to their actions and taking accountability for themselves. And not to mention the religious motives leaking into such policies, what happened to the separation of Church and State? In all honesty, seeing multiple videos of lawmakers and legislatures trying to justify these motions is mind-boggling. And it’s important to note such motions don’t only apply to women over the age of 18 participating in unprotected sex, but in a lot of states cases rape victims–no matter the age– and victims of predatory incestual “relations.” In Ohio, when asked what would become of a 13-year-old girl if she were raped (alluding to if it was also an incestuous assault) and forced to carry the baby to term regardless of any emotional, physical, or psychological trauma Rep. Jean Schmidt replied “rape is difficult issues, and it emotionally scars and individual… just as child abuse does. But if a baby is created, it is a human life, and whether that mother ends that pregnancy or not, the scars will not go away. It is a shame that it happens, but there is an opportunity for that woman, no matter how young or old she is, to make a determination about what she is going to do to help that life be a productive human being.” As a woman, to try and justify the torture of another innocent girl and the birth of a child who could experience congenital disabilities due to the incestuous nature of its conception is despicable. People who oppose feminism will argue that women have the same if not more freedoms and rights as men, but motions such as these obviously prove otherwise.

    • Yeah, good point about the separation of church and state. It’s one thing to be personally against abortion. Forcing your beliefs on everyone else is another matter. And freedom of religion protects religion, too.

  28. You are spot on! The suggestions about how men, too, might be punished for abortion make total sense.

    • Yeah! And if we did I bet there would be a lot less people hammering away on how we need to end Roe v Wade.

      • The thing is this. And it’s probably due to ultra religious, conservative, probably evangelicals. But there are almost just as many women creating this obstacle as men. I thought there were key female politicians in senate or in political roles that have just as much to do with voting out roe vs wade or trying to make it illegal for an abortion. The question comes, why do many women go against other women or a situation that could harm them should they need an abortion? It’s due to religious, conservative views I believe which there are just as many women ingrained and share as men in the US. But ultimately what gives this power is this divide and women backing this patriarchal view that is anti abortion. I don’t believe, even if conservative men wanted to create laws that are anti abortion.

        That they would if most women, a great majority were pro choice. Because men’s relations are tied directly to women because most men have family, friends, wives, gfs that are women. If most women were against this instead of it being split or there being a big portion of conservative women who are pro life and against abortion that give power to these laws. If most women were pro choice, men even who were pro life, anti abortion, would hold off on making laws against abortion because they would be sleeping in the couch, and women having relations with them, forcing such men to change their ways or else no support., But there are a lot of women that are for anti abortion too. I guarantee you these conservative men making these laws, have wives that have those same views against women and abortions. So these views men have don’t hurt them, because there are plenty of women who agree because many women have it ingrained in them of such religious, conservative views.

      • I grew up in a conservative religion, and I probably wouldn’t be a feminist without it. But I was always amazed, wondering why women fought against their own interests. When I got into sociological social psychology I began to understand, and I have written a few posts on the topic. Here are a couple of them:



        PS: it’s late and I will get to your other comments later to do them justice. Always interesting to read your thoughts.

      • Funnily enough, a lot of women don’t think it is in their own interests to murder their children. Probably something to do with a billion years of evolution.

      • This may be a common thought. A lot of people don’t make the distinction between an actual person and a collection of cells until you think about something like a fire breaking out at a stem cell lab when a two-year-old is screaming his little head off. What do you do? Save the collections of cells or the screaming child? That’s where you see that the 2 are not morally equivalent.

        Meanwhile, the same so-called “pro-life” folks are usually against gun safety laws, universal healthcare that saves lives, prenatal healthcare for poor women, laws to stem climate change (leading to much death).

        They’re not pro-life for humans. Only for cells.

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