Men Don’t Feel Sexy–and It Sucks
Running an online magazine about masculinity, I’ve come to observe a curious phenomenon. When we post about issues around men who feel unsexy or sexually unwanted, our comments blow up…
That’s a slightly edited observation from Noah Brand, editor-in-chief of The Good Men Project, and author of a top-read post entitled, “Men Must Be Needed Because We Can’t Be Wanted.”
I have heard from some of these guys on BroadBlogs, too. Like this, from Potis:
Women have learned that they are the sexy gender.
So men must desire women but it’s hard for women to desire men — after all, the male body isn’t that desirable, thanks to the media, right?
So women have to settle down with a partner when they have learned not to desire his body. But they expect him to cherish her beauty and desire her.
Comments like this usually arrive after reading, “Women Seeing Women as Sexier than Men.”
I wrote the post because when I complain of constant female objectification and the dearth of sexy-men billboards, women often “explain” to me that women just have sexier bodies.
I don’t buy it. I believe that men have sexy bodies, too. But due to a cultural bombardment of sexy-woman images, especially those that fetishize lady-parts but not man-parts, we all come to see women as the sexier sex.
I’d like to see men portrayed as sexy more often. I’d like to see women portrayed as more-than-sexy, more often. And I’d like to see “sexy” more broadly drawn.
But some guys don’t get it. They think I’m putting them down. They think I’m bragging on how much more desirable we women are. Just to rub it in.
Other guys tell me that they ARE sexy and plenty of women think so! Clearly, not all guys fear that women don’t find them attractive. But men who do worry think that “women are sexier” means more than it does.
So here’s what I’ve told Potis and others:
First, plenty of women don’t feel sexy either. Nearly 80% of young women have poor body image. So we know how you feel. And it’s no wonder so many of us want to move beyond narrow notions of sexiness, for both women and men.
But if I tie my points to your experience as a male, maybe you will understand what I mean when I say that there isn’t anything “fetishy” about men, and that women are culturally seen as sexier, YET women still see men as sexy, and – get this – even want sex with you:
Most guys probably think supermodels are hotter than their partners. Yet they still find their partners sexy. A man may even be more attracted to his partner than to the models. Why? Because he is drawn by so much more about her.
Also, after a man has been with the same woman for a while, breast and butt fetishes tend to disappear with regard to her. But he still finds her sexy and attractive. He still wants her.
And, keep in mind that in tribal societies women’s body parts aren’t objectified, so they aren’t arousing. Yet tribal men are still sexually drawn to women.
Meanwhile, straight women are more sexually drawn to men than to women. The whole “women are sexier” thing is more cognitive than emotional. So if we see a nude male and female, the female will likely look sexier. But if we’re straight, we’re more sexually/emotionally drawn to the guy.
Now, women definitely find men’s bodies attractive but we don’t tend to get aroused by looking at man-parts (women just don’t consume Playgirl the way men consume Playboy, et al.). We do find our real-life partners arousing, but not because we’ve looked at your chest. Yes, we are drawn by your beauty but arousal is more about the relationship, who you are to us. So most women most enjoy sex that has an emotional connection.
I have personally found both Brad Pitt and my lovers incredibly attractive, sexy, dreamy, can’t-take-my-eyes—or mind—off-of-you. I, and other women, have been deeply in love with, attracted to, and even obsessed by men. Even if our culture does focus on women as “the sexy ones.”
Hope that helps.
If any women would like to add their two cents, feel free.
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Posted on August 5, 2013, in feminism, men, objectification, psychology, sex and sexuality, women and tagged feminism, men, objectification, psychology, sex and sexuality, women. Bookmark the permalink. 205 Comments.
BroadBlogs 
Hey Lady here… So Recently I had a talk with an ex about this. He said he has never felt sexy in his life. I was really surprised because I’ve always had enough confidence to feel sexy even when some people may not be interested. (Not even fitting into beauty standards).
When he told me this I started asking other guys in my life if they ever felt sexy. Most of them said they’d never felt it. Is if they have felt it and maybe just not thought of the term sexy to describe it.
When I asked this ex if I had really never made him feel sexy or sexually desirable… He replied with “you made me feel like the only man in the world almost every time”.
Now that I’m with someone else… I’m really trying to help him feel desired, attractive and appreciated. But it’s almost like he just doesn’t want to feel sexy. He’s refusing how attractive I view him as if it’s not natural.
Makes me sad.
Yeah, we live in a culture that doesn’t see men as sexy in the way that we sexualize women. Google “sexy image” and you will see a lot more women than men. Or at least I did the last time I checked. Now add onto that a culture that values men and masculinity above women and femininity. So when you have a culture that associates women with sexuality, a lot of men won’t want to be associated with it because they see that as lowering their status. That only seems to affect some guys. I know plenty of men who wish women saw them as sexy. One (a friend of a friend) even went so far as to crossdress in order to feel sexy!
I found this article quite interesting, as when it comes to the representation of “sexy” women, for a long time that meant models/actresses seen on billboards of which only depicted a certain body type; skinny, toned muscle definition, perk breasts/butt. Same for men, “sexy” meant defined abdominal muscles, overall in good shape, sharp jawline. Yet as society has grown to be more publicly accepting of different body types and what is deemed “sexy” in women, we’ve forgotten to do so when it comes to the male physique. As opposed to more representations of “sexy” men, maybe the implementation of a wider variety of body types could help with men’s self-esteem. Notions of beauty, especially by Western standards, are a complete social construct and can be changed to include a wider variety of body types so as to eliminate preconceived notions of what is sexy for all genders. The insecurity, and the belief that women are the sexier sex, tie in hand with another blog post on how men seek out women for a boost in their self-esteem
This is such a great example of how the objectification of women affects more than just women. The example about a nude woman and man and finding the woman sexier reminded me of when my mother went through my figure drawing portfolio and when she saw a drawing of a woman she commented it was too pornographic. She was viewing women as sexual just for existing. There’s so much focus on women’s bodies being sexual that just being there in life men aren’t sexy just because they’re not as gassed up. I’m a bisexual woman and when i think about what i find attractive, yes in partners its more about the interaction and personality, but when when i think about flirting and just first impression attractive, i find that theres a lot of women who give me the impression of sexy versus men i would think of as sexy. When i call my boyfriend sexy he often says that nobody ever says that to him, and i find it a sharp contrast to just my friends calling me sexy when i share a picture of myself.
As someone who identifies on the asexual spectrum, this concept has always confused me. Men do not feel sexy. That’s certainly true. When a man is acting ‘sexy’ in media, it’s either in the process of pleasing a woman, who is the true focus of the scene, or done as a way to show his arrogance and lack of touch with reality. Females, however, are shown as ‘sexy’ in essentially any circumstance; from cooking to cleaning to kissing to dying. It’s clear that in women, their ‘sexiness’ exudes beyond the boundaries of sexual situations, and often beyond the boundaries of a woman’s intents – As showcased by the common trope of a young woman not realizing how ‘hot’ she is; and being ‘taught’ so by giving in to a man’s desires. While I agree all people should be able to feel desired, my question is, is “Sexy” a feeling we should seek to encourage? Or is “sexiness” a concept based on objectification and inequality?
Sexy is neutral in my book. Neither good nor bad. What matters is how people are treated because they are perceived as being sexy or not. Are they treated like they are human beings or just objects?
“The lane I travel feels alone
But I’m moving ’til my legs give out
And I see my tears melt in the snow
But I don’t wanna cry
I don’t wanna cry anymore
I wanna feel alive
I don’t even wanna die anymore
Oh I don’t wanna
I don’t wanna
I don’t even wanna die anymore”
I can visualize a person, because you don’t just like autmatically heal and are happy again if if finding the will to live. It’s a constant push to better oneself, but enough to carry on. But a person still depressed, but working through it. I wanted to know what you thought about those lyrics and go back and just skip to the end and the voice and music and what you think. “Lane I travel feels alone, but moving until his legs give out”. Like the picture of a wounded soldier fighting on. And then the visual of picturing someone with tears dripping down their face as they walk through the snow thus “see my tears melting the snow”
And the end, if you listen when he says I don’t wanna, oh I don’t wanna, you hear a pause, like it’s hard to say and the breath, and I think done on purpose. To me it was done on purpose to show the hurt and my experience is when a person and what it sounded like was someone choking up. You know when you’re sad or crying and are choked up and you can’t say something because you’re so overwhelmed with emotion? And get choked up, I noticed that it seemed like it was done on purpose to convey that pain.
I copied the lyrics from a site, but I believe they got the third one incorrect when listening to the song and that it makes sense for the tears melting the snow, not melt in the snow, so I’m just making that correction.
It’s “And I see my tears melting the snow”, not what I originally had posted.
Yes, this is very moving and evocative and I’m glad that there is music that helps to express our feelings.
When I was younger I was always surprised at how interested men were in music, they always seemed to have way better stereo equipment than girls did. I was surprised because music is so emotional and that went against the stereotype of how guys are. But now I think that, because men aren’t allowed to show their feelings, music is an acceptable (and very effective) outlet. I’m glad that it can be a resource for men.
Can you please resend them to me?
Those videos are all very touching. I’m so glad that Logic is reaching out from his own experience to try to help others. And the music is great too! It’s really helpful, I think, whether someone is struggling with depression or whether they have a friend who is, to have that music to relate to and bring hope. Thank you so much for sharing it. Do you have any thoughts?
I think it’s great the logic used his platform and like this is how I believe in textbook form of how you should use your privilege as a musician or celebrity. There are many things done, but main stream musicians can be looked harsh and I can’t blame people often doing so, because of the “bubble” many celebrities with their wealth and lifestyle have. But he literally is using his music to help people and using his fame influence to help and I feel it’ coming from a genuine place as you listen to him talk. It sounds like fame hasn’t changed him and he has a good heart, which is a great. I liked the song, but especially found the ending haunting and powerful. What did you think? It’s the last verses of the song where Khalid sings. Like I noticed the intricacies and I believe they were done on purpose. It like provides a vivid visual to me and paints a picture with the lyrics.
I’ll write more about the lyrics later. Just wanted you to know that I had seen your posts on this. But it could be a couple of weeks before I get to it. It’s something I would like to spend some time on. So I will approve the other post where you write out the lyrics at that time.
It is difficult to feel sexy when we really have nothing to feel sexy in. A woman has layers designed to flatter and tease. A man has a shirt, pants and boxers/briefs. Heavy material and not typically flattering.
We have never been taught or allowed to be sexy, if you are not a jock, millionaire, or celebrity most guys are not really noticed. We look the same at parties and weddings, and it seems most guys don’t stay in any decent shape after 35,40. Just hairy, pudgy guys watching sports, drinking beer. No one markets sexy to guys. And any guy who tries to break the standard role is labeled a fag or a sissy.
So I’m guessing that despite the name here you are a guy.
True. If we valued women as much as men, Then men wouldn’t feel so devalued by doing things that women are allowed to do.
That said, be careful what you wish for:
Want To Be Objectified? Careful What You Wish For
The name belies an alternate ego, one that would like to be, feel sexy; even if just for myself. I agree that no one should be objectified. But it always seems those who were once objectified become the objectifiers when the opportunity presents itself.
But why can’t men be and feel sexy, express themselves more openly? If it is just clothing, why do we put so much baggage on which gender can wear what?
I know women who want to objectify men just to get back at them, but because our culture doesn’t objectify them it’s actually hard for us to do. That’s why Male strippers don’t seem sexy. So women end up “playing at” objectifying men.
I will have to say that your experience isn’t as far from most women’s experience as you might expect. Most women — 80% of young women — have poor body image and don’t feel all that sexy. They feel inadequate. So if you look at the entire population only of a small minority feels the way you would like to feel.
You will also notice that women can wear pretty much anything a man wears — or something very similar like a pantsuit or a dress suit instead of a suit. It’s mostly men who can’t wear things that are associated with women — or who get punished when they do. That’s because of gender ranking. Since we rank men and masculinity above women and femininity Women don’t feel like they are demeaning themselves when they do masculine things. But men usually feel like they are demeaning themselves when they do crossed-gender things.
You might be interested in this series of posts:
It’s Ok To Be A Tomboy But Not A Sissy. Why?
Men Who Wear Frocks
Women Get All The Good Emotions, Says Cross-Dresser
Cross-Dressing Pleasure and Pain
Men Wearing Dresses to Feel Whole
Cross-Dressing’s Erotic Side
Depends on the culture. And tribal societies men aren’t that visual — no visual trigger for a fetish. And straight blind men still want to have sex with women. And couples have sex in the dark all the time. And maybe in a culture where women’s sexuality wasn’t repressed women would find men’s bodies more appealing.”
But the visual and tactile are so inner linked. For a straight man it’s programmed it seems for him to find the touch of the body and parts of a woman to be stimulating even if he can’t see them. Even if you can’t see, touch guides you to the aesthetics of said body. Something that usually looks nice or would look nice feels nice doesn’t it? Because the firmness, the grooves and such that would look nice if seen, they feel great in the softness and firmness, etc. It’s not always true, but for example, doesn’t food that looks good, usually taste good? Doesn’t food that tastes good often look good? If you blind fold a person and have them eat something and it’s really good.
They probably are envisioning the “look” of the food looking just as delicious as the taste. You can visualize what you can’t see from texture. I believe a blind person can run his hands over a woman’s face and visualize and figure some of her looks from the dimension and structure of her face and because that sense is more keen since he can’t see. And have some idean of general aesthetic of her looks. Not completely obviously but it’s there. A straight man blind or not it seems is just drawn to the bodily structure of a woman and not a man thus the texture and curves and everything that makes it up feels great to touch and that structure that feels great to touch, not a coincidence, happens to have the aesthetics to parallel the touch. They are so interlinked.
Bob, can you give me the bullet points on this?
Depends on the culture. And tribal societies men aren’t that visual — no visual trigger for a fetish. And straight blind men still want to have sex with women. And couples have sex in the dark all the time. And maybe in a culture where women’s sexuality wasn’t repressed women would find men’s bodies more appealing.”
I could understand how repression holds off women from having sex with men casually and not wanting to be seen as sluts or outwardly showing attraction. But still, if men’s bodies are sexually attractive to women like you would think, there would still be vast visual enjoyment even if no fetish. Men would still find women’s bodies highly sexually attractive and appearling even without the fetish. And I think women’s bodies shown a lot, but nudity would not be taboo and an open appreciation. I mean look at ancient greece. though there was some bisexual behavior from men.
There was a celebration of the male body despite guy’s still being straight. It was more finding impressive aspects of the athletic male physique I think, because of how much athletics and warrior things were highly regarded then. But I’d think women if men were actually sexually attractive or should be to straight women, that there would be desire to see men’s bodies shown in all their glory for such appreciation and eye candy enjoyment. Do these “straight” women find men’s bodies sexually attractive, but not women sexually attractive. I would think of straight there’s a distinction. You can find both sexes attractive, but part of sexual orientation and attraction to another sex is visually findsing said genders body sexually attractive and not finding the other one’s sexually attractive. Thus the reason and difference of a straight person attracted to the opposites sexes body and not he same sexes body.
Bob, can you give me the bullet points on this?
Couples have sex in the dark all the time, but I don’t know if that negates the fact of men being visual or that enjoyment despite being in the dark. Because touch and sight are so interconnected. Something feels great to touch because it’s nice looking or you can visualize the texture and curvature and aesthetic even if not seeing it. Or can have a feeling of how something might feel based on sight even if not touching. It doesn’t always match with food, but something that looks tasty usually is and something that is tasty usually looks good. The senses are interconnected. Straight blind men use their stronger sense of touch to depict the features and aesthetics of a woman’s face or body. Maybe it was made up, but I remember in the movie Ray, as in Ray Charles, he used to grab or touch a woman’s wrist he was interested in as he could somehow gauge maybe her body type in a general way based on her wrist size or structure. I couldn’t gauge that but then again your senses are stronger on one side I think when you lose another sense, to compensate for. Gay men are repressed yet they still find men’s bodies appealing.
Just saying that men don’t have to be visual. But they can certainly learn to be. Visual can be part of the repertoire but it isn’t necessary to having sex.
That’s really cool that the name of the song is the national suicide hotline number. I can’t tell from context. Is this a song from Linkin Park?
Nope by rapper Logic. He’s a bi-racial rapper who brings up a lot of social issues in his songs and apparently his fans love him for that. They love his music but he gives other people a voice from his platform. Here’s the song again. Listen to it here. Such a touching song. Three singers take parts in it, with Alessia Cara and the very end Khalid and the ending with the lyrics is so haunting. The sound and ways it’s sung, just creates a visual to me, where you visualize this pain but strength from someone fighting on, like a wounded soldier carrying on through. Check this song out though here it is.
And here’s rapper Logic’s explanation of it which is cool, check this out if you can too, it’s short.
And I know some people can be BSing and say things for attention, but here’s a video showing a girl’s reaction to the song, which she says the song actually made her feel stronger, but she dealt with a friend who lost her life from suicide and she tears up at the end and it’s the part of the song I was talking about, the haunting ending that brought the emotion. And she said how she loved it and thankful of Logic for the song and how she thinks it can help people, touch people and help them relate and not feel alone. So this is good too if you can watch this too. There are other reaction videos too to the song, but I’m not going to go through all those though they show up on the side video bar from this clip from youtube.
Bob, can you give me the bullet points on this?
watch the clips, let me know what you thought
Can you please resend them to me?
Yeah, it does.”
That’s not good though is it? Makes me wonder how men who have the body just like on that swimsuit might feel now or maybe already feel? Feel like their body is simian or unattractive or funny looking, unsexy, etc?
Maybe in today’s culture. I think mostly it’s because we aren’t used to seeing that on women. Way back when dads used to tell the kids to eat certain foods — hot foods I think — to “Put hair on their chest.”
I really don’t know how I came across this, but it apparently has gone viral and a humor things being sold. I typed in sexy in google and it brought me to this lol. And yes it is horrific the bathing suit and I can see why and I’m not sure it’s just because I’m a straight guy. But doesn’t this point out apparently with lesbian porn with straight women and why society sees women as sexier? There is a male shirt with a woman body in a bikini and it’s sexy. Ok yes the bathing suit is of the male body that would have back hair.
But even if you don’t count that, but just the torso was hairy and looked like that, it would be an average, dad bod. Yes, I know dad bod has been the in thing and you think showing acceptance, but it might not be because of how nice it looks but women being emotional and accepting thus the low standard of the male body, because the average male body isn’t the work of art to have a high standard. But women sexy and male body for comedy.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hairy-chest-swimsuit-exists-better-worse-1013041
Yeesh! I wonder who would buy it.
But think of that societal. I think this is why well men are glad women are straight, but wonder why most women aren’t lesbians and then it seems like culture reinforces that thought with the male body as comedy and female body as sexy
Yeah, it does.
lol yeah pretty gross, but then you think. That’s not that different for many men’s torsos. Robin Williams the comedian, he was a hairy dude. His torso probably looked like that and more men than people think. I’m glad I don’t, though I would trim my hair if I was, but still.
Ha!
Oh I did. And I thought of something else and edited my last comment to you.
BroadBlogs | July 28, 2017 at 1:34 pm
What do you think are the major Messages he made that could help someone?”
I saw your response to the linkin park music video and lyrics I posted which you said were touching, but I don’t see a post to the first one I posted of the logic music video and the song explanation video and what I wrote about it. Well he wrote the song in general because he talks about societal issues in general and fans have come up to him telling him how he’s saved their life because he talks about real life issues in his songs. I guess a song called Black spiderman talks about mixed race and diversity and struggles. Logic himself is bi-racial I think, half black, half white. So he felt seeing the real issue of depression of his fans and having gone through depression, though not serious stuff but also having lost people in his life to suicide. This was something important to touch on and I’m glad it’s genuine as in it’s something he’s not exploiting and I felt when I first heard the song it was genuine, but he’s had friends or family going through it so it does have relation to him. And he explains the song, which you should check out the song itself that I posted in the music video and his explanation of the song that I had there too.
I feel it has helped people because the comments posted on youtube and elsewhere on how he’s helped people who were suicidal or depressed or others get through with having someone they care about who has died from suicide. I was waiting for you to check it out and answer and then I was going to post some clips of people listening and responding to the song. The suicide prevention line whatever even approved or something about it;s help. Obviously it’s not going to help every depressed or suicidal person, but what I know is music is powerful, it can connect to us in ways that simply talking can’t always and provokes emotions, mix that with lyrics and I can see how it can help people or at the very least. They will know the hotline number if they are feeling suicidal, just from hearing the song so much and give it a call. I mean think about that. If you’re suicidal, you aren’t going to look up a a number or spend that time, but if it’s off the top of your head and memorized because of hearing a song like this that you like so much, it can maybe cause a person to dial it in a last effort to get advice or help before killing themselves, a last resort.
Can you give me the bullet points on this?
I think the song helps in the beginning it explains about a guy that is suicidal and the other lyrics have the next part where alessia cara sings and logic where it’s the part where it’s the hotline operator communicating to the man. He has lyrics trying to show that people going through this are not alone. The song ends where the person still feels emotional pain as one would but they have the strength to fight on. I think it helps, because music is powerful, it can reach your soul more than simple words. Something about a deep harmony and impactful. You know this. There are studies about how powerful music is with our emotions as a human.
A song can make us sad, happy, angry, or time travel to a distant past with a specific memory or to a an ex gf or bf and something in detail of that moment. I’ll show you too because there were comments and videos I saw with people who either were very very depressed and it helped them feel better or lost someone to depression and they said the song made them sad, but felt stronger like an “empowering ” effect from it. And the name of the song is the national suicide hotline number, so you never know, you like a song you remember long numbers you wouldn’t look up or remember. But someone could think of the number from this song and remember it, if suicidal and what if they called and it helped them and it’s because they thought of the number or remembered it because of this song? Check the videos though with the music and lyrics and the other one where he explaions the song like I said.
That’s really cool that the name of the song is the national suicide hotline number. I can’t tell from context. Is this a song from Linkin Park?
“Women themselves only label themselves bisexual if feel equally interested in having sex with women and men. If they almost always want sex with women but have found themselves sexually attracted to a couple of men they usually don’t see themselves as bisexual”
They can label how they want, but if going straight by the definition of straight, it’s being attracted to the opposite sex and not the same sex. Sexual attraction to opposite sex and not same sex. By that definition it’s not literally straight, but on the very straight side of bisexual.
You say breasts are arousing but no desire to the woman those breasts are attached to. But yet breasts are distinctly a female body part. This isn’t like a foot or hand, though women’s hands are different than men’s too. That’s why I believe straight men and I are attracted to breasts which can lead to the turn on, because they are distinctly feminine and a female body part and our brains associates with the female sex, especially since it signals fertility.
It’s only with transexuals that it gets convoluted, but most men operated to be women, still have their dicks. Facial hair as in beard and mustache are distinctly male features and the penis obvious. This would be like me saying men’s beards or dicks get me turned on, but no desire for the man that’s attached too. Yet I don’t know any born women who have dicks, or beards, so it’s attraction to a distinct male feature, so being attracted to the person behind the body feature seems irrelevant in saying they are straight. BTw, you can delete the previous posts, I made this much shorter for you.
Breasts have been sexualized in our culture. Most other body parts have not. So women can learn to get aroused by something that has been eroticized. But if you don’t want to have sex with someone of the same sex how can you be bisexual?
Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense to have one person label another person’s sexual orientation. Especially when they don’t have any experience living inside a persons head.
I’ll try and answer your other comment earlier today. I thought I would have more time this week because I wasn’t going to be doing much with my blog while I was out of town, But I had so much to do out of town that I didn’t get to it yet.
thanks for answering, when you have the chance check that post I had with those videos and what I wrote with that song from Logic about depression. Very touching and cool in showing a musician doing it right. Meaning he literally has used his platform to help people with his music. Pretty cool event though the song is obviously a heavy topic, but still amazing.
Oh I did. And I thought of something else and edited my last comment to you.
What do you think are the major Messages he made that could help someone?
Yeah but yet gay men aren’t turned on by breasts. Men are so straight or gay that they have the big visual divide with bodies whether the same sex is sexualized or not. If women don’t want to have sex with a woman how can they be bisexual? A person can label themselves however they want. But it just sounds the reason’s are somewhat arbitrary. Like the sexual attraction or orientation for women like this, their “straightness” has to be mostly emotional which effects the physical attraction and no emotional attraction to women thus no interest for sex and not having in person physical attraction. But is this heterosexuality actually on the visual, aesthetic aspect? To me that’s a big part of sexual attraction and orientation and a big gauge. Where is this coming from?
Depends on the culture. And tribal societies men aren’t that visual — no visual trigger for a fetish. And straight blind men still want to have sex with women. And couples have sex in the dark all the time. And maybe in a culture where women’s sexuality wasn’t repressed women would find men’s bodies more appealing.
“But because their experience was arousal followed by desire for sex with the woman they couldn’t understand my experience.”
They almost are always interconnected. I mean it makes more sense to be connected than not. just like hunger and wanting to eat something are interlinked. And desire can actually be before arousal and why arousal is sparked which is why the assumption could be made too. You desire thus your arousal sparked? And before either of those, the catalyst is sexual attraction or finding body parts and bodies sexually attractive which sparks arousal. So don’t you have to find women’s breasts sexually attractive to provoke arousal? And the reason for not having desire is not because of not finding breasts sexually attractive but no emotional attraction to women, thus sex with women not interesting, therefore, no interest?
But I have never experienced it in the way of Hunger and wanting to eat something. Or seeing something tasty and wanting to eat it. It’s simply a different experience.
It’s more like smelling a nice scent. It’s pleasurable but don’t occur to you to take some sort of action.
I don’t know because some research has shown that the women who are most sexually interested and engaged are the most likely to be attracted to both sexes. Are they just less repressed in terms of any sort of sexual stimulation? Or is it something about being bisexual? It’s possible that I have the potential to be bisexual but I’m so repressed that I’m just not interested unless I have a strong emotional connection, and I’ve only experienced that with men.”
Yeah I’ve seen that too, which makes me think about the argument that many women are bisexual. Remember when you had posts about women’s sexual fluidity and you didn’t think it meant women were bisexual. But you see it does seem sexual fluidity means most women probably are bisexual and it;s because of an arbitrary emotional attraction or conditioned to have with men and don’t have with women that is the reason “straight” women don’t want sex with women or not attracted to women despite being turned on by lesbian porn, finding women sexier and images a turn on compared to images of men. This brings up the question to me, why women or most straight women were born? with the emotional attraction to men and not women? How much is conditioning and how much biology? And even though bisexuality is accepted for women, if you see disney shows and movies and all that.
As far as “romance” it’s heterosexual and the male is the romantic interest, thus the condition it seems with girls as the young age to see attraction and emotions toward boys and not girls. Yes straight guys have the emotional attraction to women, but I think a lot of that is the duality with the visual, physical attraction and that same attraction is the reason repulsed or not attracted at all to men. Why would a man if what he likes, feminine, the female face bone structure that’s different to a man’s, the less hair, the curves, vagina, etc that’s opposite and thus the person (men) with the square jaw line, hairy body, muscle, lumpy body, just not pretty features and all that, like it’s a complete negation and why the thought of sex with a man for straight men is repulsive. It sounds wrong, but I and a lot of guys are even turned off by some women who have “manly faces” or bodies (think female body builders).
The higher you go up the evolutionary ladder the less instinctual we are, And the more symbolic we are.
A symbol is something that doesn’t have any value but that society creates meaning for: a red light, pink is for girls, a rose… Yes, a tree has an innate meaning but it has layers of symbolism on top of that so that an environmentalist and a logger see very different things when they look at a tree.
Human sexuality has a core innate aspect to it: hormones play a role and anatomy creates certain limits. But there is also flexibility, for both women and men.
Looking at men, for instance, you don’t find the breast fetish in every culture, You find it in cultures where breasts are Hidden or selectively hidden and revealed and obsessed over. And what is considered attractive varies from place to place. In some parts of west Africa and the Middle East obesity is thought most sexually appealing.
And turning to women’s sexual fluidity it’s not that all women are bisexual but that their sexuality seems to be more fluid than men’s for both cultural and biological reasons. And what does one mean by bisexual? Women themselves only label themselves bisexual if feel equally interested in having sex with women and men. If they almost always want sex with women but have found themselves sexually attracted to a couple of men they usually don’t see themselves as bisexual, But lesbian with some sexual fluidity.
I think that I am pretty much perfectly socialized when it comes to sexuality. Almost all of our romantic elms, Television shows, advertisements, Romance novels feature straight couples. And all of my romantic yearnings have been for men. But our culture completely ignores the male body and eroticizes the female body, Even fetishizing some female body parts — and no male body parts. And I have found myself sexually aroused by the body part we most fetishize: breasts. And yet I have no sexual desire for the woman who is attached to them — no desire to have sex with her. It never even occurred to me until men on my blog started asking me about that side of it. And then I was mystified. Why would I want to have sex with her? That wasn’t part of my experience. But because their experience was arousal followed by desire for sex with the woman they couldn’t understand my experience.
I also don’t think it’s a problem to have personal preferences. My issue is with cultural preferences that message that you have to look a particular way to be attractive… better genes… what good that that do?
hmmm, maybe I’ll write about this sometime.
Right. It’s the taboo. I think I mentioned one time that I haven’t found breasts arousing in years and then I went to the French Riviera where some women were topless. And the taboo of being topless in a public place was arousing. But ordinarily they don’t interest me much. And also, when I was younger, it was more taboo to see topless woman than now a days.”
So that sounds like the female nude or the nude breasts as in what they “represent” is more erotic, not the actual physical, aesthetics of breasts and nipples themselves. If this is the case, and I can see how they confuse it. But they think the female nude is more erotic, but it would have to be the “representation and eroticism and taboo/sexuality and that signal” that is erotic and could turn on a woman. But not the nude female body literally as in the aesthetics. If it was, then there would have to be lust and desire attached to that arousal and the breasts would be sexually appealing and sexually attractive as the aesthetics would prompt that. But it seems it’s more a revealing of something that is a strong sex symbol and not normally seen causing it and not the actually sexual appealingness aesthetically of the actual breasts and nipples. It’s the taboo that sparks it for straight men, but also the aesthetics, because breasts are sexually attractive to straight men. The whole attractive shape, nipples, hips, butt all of that sparks lust because that’s what “we’re (straight men) attracted to, because we’re attracted to women and the female body so such aesthetics are sexy.
This looks interesting. Could you please give me the bullet points or shorten this?
This makes me wonder if it’s because women have lower sex drives or repressed. This doesn’t happen to men, because we’re so attracted to women and our sex drives are so high and towards women, nothing veers it off course. From my experience, women who may not be the bell curve as far as very visual, but fairly visual or more than women who aren’t that visual. It seems like they aren’t affected by sexualizing of women’s bodies as far as getting turned on. They may feel self conscious, and may admire a pretty woman on tv. But my experience it’s the handsome, shirtless men on tv or whatever that may not turn them on, but provokes their visual interest and perhaps lust sometimes, not the nude or scantily clad women.
So that sounds like the female nude or the nude breasts as in what they “represent” is more erotic, not the actual physical, aesthetics of breasts and nipples themselves. If this is the case, and I can see how they confuse it. But they think the female nude is more erotic, but it would have to be the “representation and eroticism and taboo/sexuality and that signal” that is erotic and could turn on a woman. But not the nude female body literally as in the aesthetics. If it was, then there would have to be lust and desire attached to that arousal and the breasts would be sexually appealing and sexually attractive as the aesthetics would prompt that.
I don’t know because some research has shown that the women who are most sexually interested and engaged are the most likely to be attracted to both sexes. Are they just less repressed in terms of any sort of sexual stimulation? Or is it something about being bisexual? It’s possible that I have the potential to be bisexual but I’m so repressed that I’m just not interested unless I have a strong emotional connection, and I’ve only experienced that with men.
Meanwhile, straight women are more sexually drawn to men than to women. ”
It’s weird, it seems like if a person is straight they are only sexually drawn to the opposite sex. For men, we’re not more sexually drawn to women than men. We’re ONLY sexually drawn to women. I know you said fluidity doesn’t mean not straight or bisexual for women, but just arousal pattern, but it makes one wonder. A big part of sexual orientation I believe is sexual attraction, not just emotional, but visual/physical. I don’t believe it’s who you want to have sex with simply but sexual attraction, because sexual attraction is what is needed to be attracted. If there is some, it seems like there is always that possibility even if slim or unique circumstance to experiment with the same sex or not be turned off in doing so. I think if straight guy’s or many straight guys found any men sexually attractive they’d probably try something or that possibilty. But there’s not that possibility because men aren’t sexy or aren’t “hot”.
And it’s not because men aren’t sex objects or homophobia, but men are strictly attracted to the female body, the fact and that negates or male and masculine features from being sexually attractive or a turn on because it’s the complete opposite of everything we like and are attracted to. I’d agree with homophobia and insecurity for men which there are many who can’t admit or can’t tell if a model looking guy is good looking or handsome and such or if another dude is ugly or such. A confident man can aknowledge or admire one that is in great shape and be impressed and want to look like that. But unlike straight women it seems, like men aren’t THAT attractive, not something that crosses into “sexy or hot category” I already said the differences, but since the same body and everything, straight guy’s seeing a dude nude is either a turn off or like looking at a wall, like could care less..
Maybe you didn’t see this. Take a look at it: Sexual Fluidity, Images & Biology https://broadblogs.com/2015/10/19/sexual-fluidity-images-biology/
I have. But are you drawn to a good looking male an image or the nude female? I didn’t say aroused. If you aren’t attracted to women, then her breasts isn’t what’s turning you on, but the taboo, sexuality they represent and women perhaps feel as they like identify with the woman’s sexuality through the male gaze and it turns them on. The breasts suppleness and areolas, and nipples and texture I don’t think is sparking the arousal literally because that would be on the tip toe of desire, as that plays into the visual/tactile sexual curiosity realm, which is related to sexual appeal and sexual attractiveness due such aesthetics prompting that.
Right. It’s the taboo. I think I mentioned one time that I haven’t found breasts arousing in years and then I went to the French Riviera where some women were topless. And the taboo of being topless in a public place was arousing. But ordinarily they don’t interest me much. And also, when I was younger, it was more taboo to see topless woman than now a days.
This makes me wonder if it’s because women have lower sex drives or repressed. This doesn’t happen to men, because we’re so attracted to women and our sex drives are so high and towards women, nothing veers it off course. I thought you said you had moments where you had low desire and teetering toward asexual and I wonder and it seems for the women you were trying to help with such posts about being turned on by nude women or finding women sexier. These women with this posts you were trying to help, makes me wonder if these women were less visual or lower sex drive. Because what I noticed. While it’s true most women aren’t visual like men, but there’s a bell curve of course. I’m not talking about the bell curve, but I believe even in the average range. Within that average range, women can be more visual than each other. For example some women hardly admire good looking guys and are more emotional, whereas other may need emotion but check out guy’s bodies they see out and about, therefore, I’d say more visual than the other.
Whenever, I hear a woman say her favorite body part of a guy is his smile or eyes, I know she’s more emotional than visual. The reason is, because I find girls eyes, color and look and such sexy and pretty, but that’s from an emotional point of view which is separate for sexual. Like a girl who says the sexiest body part of a guy preference wise is a nice butt or chest to me is more visual than one who says eyes. But anyway, most girls i know are more the latter that is explained and decent sex drive and I’ve been around them when they’ve looked at ads with women and men, tv and stuff where the woman are sexualized. And they aren’t turned on or affected by sexy or nude women. Like many women, most I know. If they see an image of a sexy women whether nude, skimpy clothes. It’s almost either they don’t care or may find her shoes nice, or her hair nice or her pretty, you know admiring. But often if there’s a sexy male in it, they either say he’s hot or swoon over the hot man, especially if it’s a sexy actor they know. Even if it’s a sexy actress they know, it’s the shirtless, buff guy they will swoon over.
This looks interesting. Could you please give me the bullet points or shorten this?
“I look at a nearly naked image of a man and woman and I will say that she looks sexier. And yet I’m more drawn to him and I’d rather have sex with him. ”
How come you can’t self rationalize what you’re thinking and realize what you’re thinking isn’t true or a contradiction of what you think women the female nude being more erotic or sexier? If you’re drawn visually to the nude male, or could haver desire to the nude male and not the female. Then the nude male is obviously in the pure form sexier or else you wouldn’t be drawn and what sexual orientation gears that attraction emotionally and or visually. If saying that, it must mean you see the taboo if the female nude which there is because of our culture or connect with “sexual appeal displayed or sexual presence” of a nude woman.
And feel that indirectly, not from the aesthetics of her body being directly sexually appealing as in sexually attractive/which would connect to desire in relation to such aesthetics. It would mean your mind is basically running on “culture auto-pilot”. How come, since you know your reaction would be to feel this presence from the nude female being sexual, but being drawn to the nude male. That doesn’t cause the step back, shake head and self awareness of “wait a second, I feel this way about but it’s because of culture, but i’m drawn to the nude male’s chest in the direct potential sexual way not the female” Therefore in that definition, it is the male nude that is truly sexier, because of the fact you’re drawn to it instead of the female and that’s what ultimately counts I’d think, if one is to define what nude is truly “sexier”. You aren’t going to be drawn to nude body and think you’d rather have sex with such person if it’s not actually sexier. You’re mind just doesn’t rationalize it because it’s running on culture “auto-pilot” like I said.
Btw, you talked about you having some male students or more the past years. When you made that first post or the second repeat post of “women finding women sexier than men” post. What were the men’s reaction to that for that post or when you brought it up? Were they surprised women felt that or the female students or some admitted that? Did it bother them? Or did the male students going from their straight male bias just think “well of course”? It made me curious so I thought I’d ask.
Because you weren’t socialized as a woman, with female biology and a straight nature, in a society that fetishizes breasts you’ll never get this. I rarely find breasts arousing anymore. But anytime that I have in the past I never wanted to have sex with the woman who was attached to them. It never even occurred to me. Just noticed a pleasurable sensation. And I’m actually not interested in having sex with a man either, unless I’m very strongly emotionally connected to him. There’s actually a word for being unable or uninterested in having sex without a strong emotional connection, but I can’t recall what it is right now.
With regard to that last question the only responses I have are the ones that are comments on the post. I’ve brought it up in class but I haven’t noticed the men having any particular reaction to it. They don’t raise their hand and say anything.
And this is why I prefer porn and sex workers. As it is, men aren’t desired so have to pay for sex. All single men must do this. Either by dating, or by being a “john”. In fact the latter is cheaper.
Maybe you should read the whole post.
and that women are culturally seen as sexier, YET women still see men as sexy, and – get this – even want sex with you:”
So what if men are seen as sexy, is that supposed to make a man feel better if women find other women “sexier”? Men being sexy to women doesn’t mean much, I mean I would hope men are attractive to women. But men should be seen as sexier than women and women should find men as sexier than women, but yet it’s the other way around. What does that say about how unattractive or limited men are on attractivness and how unsexually appealing men are, when women designed to find men sexually attractive, find women more attractive.
“Most guys probably think supermodels are hotter than their partners. Yet they still find their partners sexy. A man may even be more attracted to his partner than to the models. Why? Because he is drawn by so much more about her.”
If this is a correlation of women’s thoughts of women compared to men, that doesn’t make things better. So a man is supposed to feel good if, like supermodels, women find women hotter” than men, but still find men sexy and more attracted to men than the “hotter” women? And she’s drawn to him because of more than his body and looks, but much more about him, so it’s she’s basically drawn to him “Despite” his body and looks?
“Meanwhile, straight women are more sexually drawn to men than to women. The whole “women are sexier” thing is more cognitive than emotional. So if we see a nude male and female, the female will likely look sexier. But if we’re straight, we’re more sexually/emotionally drawn to the guy.”
It’s cognitive than emotional? So women think this, but it’s ok as long as women are emotionally drawn to men? I thought visuals and looking is a physical thing? Why are emotions brought up for what should be strictly visual? It’s because of women’s emotions towards men and their bodies that women can even find men’s bodies attractive and sexy? That’s how non appealing men;s bodies are too? I know women aren’t aroused simply by looking, but I’m not talking about that, but finding a man’s body attractive and sexy visually, not emotionally. And if women are more sexually drawn to men, why can’t the aknowledge it and think it? If you are sexually drawn to men, it should registed to you that “hey,I’m drawn to men’s bodies, therefore, their bodies are sexier” conclusion. It makes women seem like robots and no ownersship of their sexuality and just relaying like a robot what society says, instead of realizing their own visual attractions.
“So what if men are seen as sexy, is that supposed to make a man feel better if women find other women “sexier”?”
I don’t know if you will ever be able to understand this, because I think it’s possibly incomprehensible for someone who hasn’t experienced it themselves. But there are different levels on which this works. For me and a lot of Women, Most of the time it’s just academic. I look at a nearly naked image of a man and woman and I will say that she looks sexier. And yet I’m more drawn to him and I’d rather have sex with him. There are other women who would like to have sex with the girl even though they would rather have a relationship with a guy. I can’t say that they would rather have sex with her though.
“I look at a nearly naked image of a man and woman and I will say that she looks sexier. And yet I’m more drawn to him and I’d rather have sex with him. There are other women who would like to have sex with the girl even though they would rather have a relationship with a guy. I can’t say that they would rather have sex with her though.”
You said you are more drawn to a man and rather have sex with him. I find that interesting “rather” so you would have sex with the woman, but prefer it with the guy? That’s not completely heterosexual. And how come you and women can’t self analyze your thoughts and reaction and away from this “auto-pilot” though you apparently have with seeing and thinking a nake women is sexier? You see the nude men and are “drawn” to him, and his body must have something to do with it, afteralll, that’ swhat makes him a man and why you are hetoerseuxal as you like male body parts and how they look sexually/visually compared to women’s why is why a straight women would want to touch said body parts and not the woman’s. Sounds like common sense or what should be common sense. Why can’t you stop this automatic though of thinking or seeing the woman as sexier and self analyze like “women are sexierrr……wait I’m looking at the man’s chest, his butt and I find it sexually attractive and not the woman’s and like how it looks more than the woman’s and rather touch it” “how can this woman’s body or women’s bodie be sexier to me, if my reaction visually is to be drawn tot he man’s body and not the womans?” “Therefore she isn’t sexier, the man’s body is”
And other women who would like to have sex with the girl even though they would rather have a relationship with the a guy. That’s bisexual, it just means more attracted or emotionally or more emotionally attracted to men. Even if they rather have sex with a man than the woman doesn’t mean they are straight obviously. That’s still bi sexual and it doesn’t mean they are necessarily actually more straight or sexually attracted to men, but just emotionally. If a woman likes women’s bodies more visually and would have sex and therefore finds women’s bodies sexually attractive. EVen if men she’s more attracted to because of emotion. It doesn’t mean it’s because of men’s bodies that she’s more attracted to men.
So if anything it seems like she’s bisexual and more attracted to women on the physical side, but mental emotional attracted to men. So her visual reaction actual means a lot and that she is more physically attracted to women than men, even if she wants sex more with a man. And that’s because a lot of the reason of wanting sex more with a man seems to be because of her emotional attraction to men moresoe than visual attraction, so it doesn’t count as much to me. I feel visual/physical attraction to count more if going from a sexual orientation stand point. After all, gender is cultual or more so , where as sex is biological and well..how do we see and diffferentiate between men and women and the biggest difference? Well the physical. Men have xy chromosomes, adam’s apples, dicks, hairy/hairier bodies, rougher skin, dense bones, more muscle mass, flat chests or no “breasts, sharp angular jaw lines, broader features. A straight women sees that and is attracted and likes this sexually compared to women’s different biological features.
Men see the curves, breasts, less hairy, wider hips, smaller features, softer skin and well they like and want sex with this sex (women). The personality doesn’t mean anything if it’s from the sex with the hairy body and no breasts and dick and balls right? Men don’t want any of that. Physical is everything it’s well what makes men and women different obviously.
This is a really long so I put off answering it. All I can say is that you read too much into “Rather than.” Because I have no interest.
I know for a fact the my friends and I can talk about how sexy the male body is, however that doesn’t change the fact that women’s bodies are more sexualized and objectified than men’s. Taking a step back some women embrace being seen as sexy it can give them confidence and build there self esteem ( which as pointed out in this post is often low for young girls), and it does ” suck ” that men can’t usually attain the same feeling. Society tells men to be strong, muscular, tall but if one focuses on there apperence too much they may get criticism for being to feminine. Over sexualization of the female body is wrong, in my opinion, but I also feel the men lose self esteem because society won’t let them embrace their sexuality.
Sorry. Yes, I’m sure the hiding and revealing helps. But like I said with how something that men casually see can still cause arousal for men if seeing a woman’s body when a man is horny or has sex on his mind for whatever reason. Obviously seeing nudity or bare breasts and butts can spark arousal just from seeing even when a man was not thinking sex. But I pointed out with the non taboo clothes and reveals can spark arousal too when a man is horny, whereas, doesn’t seem for women to men.
Which makes me feel men might be hornier on average which sparks more visual arousal just perhaps biologically or because of the space made in a man’s head for sex. I’m sure the taboo of nudity from women’s bodies on adds fuel to that, but it just makes me wonder. Because for men regardless of the media, I and men can be spark if already horny just from hot women wearing form fiting clothes but nothing that revealing if certain contexts and times even if not knowing her. Whereas, women not so?
So my question to you is, I know men’s bodies aren’t fetishsized but like men be aroused by normal things sometimes when horny. Does this happen for women sometimes? Say a woman is working out or has some drinks and is horny for whatever reason and thinking about sex and she sees a hot, basically adonis walking past her shirtless with nice muscles. Does she get turned on, because of sex being on her mind and already horny and this visual sparks her? Or the guys’ body doesn’t spark anything regarding lust and arousal toward him?
Sure, his attractive looks could spark arousal. But it would probably be at a little lower scale than women experience.
Bob, if I can join in your conversation, I believe this ability to be horny/easily aroused is a trait of a male mind. Women do get aroused, yes…and sometimes it can be from seeing a very attractive man (whatever her preference might be). But there is a reason that most female-minded people don’t watch porn; Their minds aren’t as visually oriented for sex as men.
Personally, my sex/body is female but my gender/brain is male. Hence, despite my outward appearance I’ve experienced exactly what you speak of. Namely, being aroused/horny most if the time, very visually oriented in terms of arousal, and able to go from 0 (not thinking about sex) to 100 (thinking about nothing but sex temporarily) if I see an attractive man or woman.
It’s actually kind of odd. I’m bisexual in that I’m sexually attracted to certain women in addition to most men, though I’ve only ever had 1 lover and he is male. Here’s the kicker though: my visual arousal gets “activated” far more easily by women precisely because they tend to have more revealing clothes. I can walk through my local mall for 1 hour and find 20 men and 20 women I find attractive…but despite my love of men, I’ll be more turned on by the women because it’s difficult to find men with form fitting clothing. There’s a difference between the arousal that comes from the “hidden” aspect and the minor frustrations of just not even being able to see much of someone’s body. (Not that I’m owed glimpses of anyone’s body…I’m simply using the example of male vs female clothing trends in America.)
Yeah I know, clothing/fashion has a HUGE influence. Me too, at the risk of sounding like a perv, sometimes some older teen girls can still be distracting for this reason. It’s funny clothing was more unisex in say the 70s and 80s in some ways too. Basically, men wearing these ‘shorts’ that go past the knee, they have pale, unshaven legs, while women are nicely tanned, shaven, primped and made up, is it any wonder people are beginning to feel they are ‘objectively’ the more desirable sex? And they are always referring to that ideal. What about if a fat, pale, girl with cellulite wore shorts that revealed her buttcheeks? I’m not saying she shouldn’t be allowed to, but why must men tolerate that and yet even a guy with a nice figure is lambasted for wearing something form fitting or revealing?
I think one body part that seems to have been overlooked in this discussion is skin. I’ve heard it said that after the brain the skin is actually maybe the most important secondary ‘sex organ’ after the genitals themselves, since it covers all the other parts, and one can be aroused by touch too. Men have skin, men have erogenous zones too, yet this aspect of male sensuality isn’t explored. Women tend to take a lot of care of their skin, although partly because of marketing more men are too, but men enjoy sensual massage, or being touched (sexually or otherwise). Sorry I’m sort of changing topics, but feeling sexy is not ONLY a matter of how one feels perceived by others. I don’t know if I’m like most men or if most men will admit it, but even in the privacy of one’s home one can feel sexy. Like the feeling of being naked can be arousing. I would say the feeling of being naked with another is definitely quite stimulating, it’s not all about looks. Sex is ultimately about feelings – sensory feelings, mind/body (which is really one), orgasm itself is feeling, and erotic images are only as powerful as the feelings they elicit in the viewer.
@namelesscomposer
I understand what you’re saying. One of my friends is a teacher at a high school and subs at a middle school. The clothing that 14-18 year old girls wear can be pretty inappropriate at times according to him…or “distracting” as you politely put it. In the summer it can be so bad that he says he has to navigate the halls staring straight ahead. I feel this shows that schools really need to crack down on their clothing codes. Sounds like it’s getting too lenient.
I like unisex clothes the best. Wish people would be as understanding of tomgirls as they are of tomboys. (Although I will say that the older you get, the more society dislikes gender non-conformists.)
It’s funny you mention the shorts thing. I do shave everything below the waist and I don’t have any cellulite since I started jogging for 1 hour every morning, but I’m practically translucent. I think I’m too white to show my legs (and can’t tan for the life of me…unless red is the new bronze, lol) so even during 90 degree days I’m in pants or jeans.
I actually prefer it when men wear form fitting clothes, or ones that show off more of their body. Not so I can ogle them…I’m not rude or unsubtle…but because I think the male body is just as good looking as the female one. And no one should feel the need to be perfect, although I do believe everyone should at least try to be fit and healthy.
Oh yes, I definitely agree with you about the skin. I know I feel sexy/stimulated when I stay naked at home (which isn’t difficult to do when you sleep nude 99% of the time, lol) and can easily imagine other people do too. Then again, some may not live alone/ with a trusted partner or feel good about their body, so it’s probably not liberating or sexy to them.
My lover/FwB is a “touch junkie” like you describe. He enjoys cuddling, whereas I can’t stand it for long without feeling suffocated. We both enjoy scalp massages, but I can tease him unmercifully by simply stroking the outside of his ear and I don’t have the same reaction unless he (very!) lightly chokes my neck. He actually goes to massage parlors or requests massages from me (which I love giving) and has many little places that make him twitch or moan, some of which are surprising.
Sometimes I think he’s more feminine than I am (not that it’s difficult to be) since he’s into long foreplay, massage, cuddling, etc like women are stereotypically known for wanting. My own tastes run more towards getting to the “real” sex and the multiple orgasms. Since ours is an egalitarian arrangement, I tend to think we balance out very well indeed. 😉
Yes, but maybe it’s because men are hornier on average. You even said that men have more space in their head or something for sex, So makes me wonder if men’s sexual nature causes men to be fetishsizers and only don’t wnen women and their bodies are shown alll the time nude, so accustomed to it. Tribal women being naked all the time suppresses this visual nature from men, because they have nothing to look forward seeing since the women are treating their bodies in a non sexual manner much of the time and the guys see all the women there naked or topless, so nothing to spark anything for them. Because even the most alluring thing or beautiful thing will become mundane when seeing it all the time and your eyes adjust.
Not because it’s less beautiful or the person viewing is not highly visual, but because it’s human nature to get adjusted. But it seems like men don’t need much mystery though to be get excited again like I said about the re excitement from seeing their gfs in sexy clothes. It might be because how women’s bodies are sexualized, but it could be because how men’s minds might easily be able to sexualize women’s bodies even without media. The media only strengthens or reinforces what is already there. Like I said, before I paid much attention to tv ads and just hit puberty, I remeber having lustful thoughts or gifls bodies wearing tight pants, and just because such body parts were covered up bt I wanted to see. Not because anything was accentuated or scantilty clad or because I saw something from tv.
And another thing. I have to say for me and I think this is true for many men as well. It’s true seeing nudity or breasts for an attractive woman from the breasts and shock value can spark strong arousal. And while regular clothes not so. I can say in particular moments depending on the girl and time and my feeling, can spark arousal sometimes too. Even though this shouldn’t because only fetishsized, or things seen that are taboo should only cause that. But while seeing women in regular clothes is nice to see but nothing much. There are other times when seeing a particularly hot girl whose body is really nice or body shape is particularly in my strong preference with attraction that I can be quite turned on even if the girl is wearing simply shorts, or clothes at the gym or just a regular bikini. You know, stuff I and guys see regularly that is not a mystery. Basically for whatever reason maybe working out that can spike testosterone I heard or or certain times, where I happen to think of sex and horny and sex is on my mind. A hot girl wearing a bikini or tight pants or sexy clothes but nothing overt or scantily clad can get me thinking lustful thoughts towards a girl or turned on. So if it’s simplky men being visual because of the fetish, then why does this happen for other men and I? It seems like our male minds are just as much sexualizers jusf from out naturaly testosterone horniness and how that surge can spark a visual surge even when not there before.
And this makes me ask and wonder. How come girls if you believe are as naturally as visual as men in their natural state, How come women don’t seem to get highly visually turned on or think of sex or lust strongly toward a hot man’s bare body when sex is on her mind? Do they? When a woman for whatever reason is thinking of sex and horny during a certain time, does a hot man shirtless provoke lust toward him, wherease, when she wasn’t think of sex and the same male body didn’t spark that? Like I said the routine clothes can still provokoe strong visual arousal from men at times if and when a man’s mind got sex going on in their head or are horny already. It just seems like men can get turned on even by not fetish stuff too or more so than women. Say women’s mouths and lips. I know suggestive stuff on purpose can spark things, but even unintentional can too. Lick of the lips, a woman maybe sucking a popsicle, banana, I swear it seems like guys can pervert more non fetish stuff or mundane things more than women do towards men.
Yes, but maybe it’s because men are hornier on average.
That could play a part. Especially when you add it to how much more sexualized women’s bodies are compared with men’s.
The male body is not selectively Hidden and revealed in a way that creates fetishes. And we are not bombarded with the sorts of images. That has an effect on how our brains are wired. Women and men live in very different worlds of sexual imagery.
Luckily I had some extra time to read all this. I don’t always. Shorter questions would be helpful.
Sure the shock value loses it’s luster, which is why men don’t have the fetish once they are in a relationship with a woman. But even though the shock value is gone and the excitment from seeing something attracive that you don’t usually get to see. I’d say his gfs boobs are still quite arousing, even though not like the stir it caused when he first saw them. A lot of it is the mystery too, as in boobs he’s never seen before, so naturally once he’s seen the body parts quite a while now, his eyes are used to seeing his gf or wifes boobs. However with that said, while not the same, I think men are and still get quite visuall aroused or can, and not simply they are attracted to their gf, but men can still be strongly excited from their gfs breasts and butts.
Like I said, I’ve seen it where guy’s go out some nights and their gfs are wearing a tight, low top dress where really nice cleavage shows for their amble breasts and their asses looking good in the form fitted dress. You know, I can even notice it that their bfs and husbands are excited when they dress sexy like that and probably horny seeing their gfs and can’t wait to have sex and see them naked at home after the night out. So it’s more than simply men finding their gfs bodies sexually attractive or simply because the like or love their gfs, but if their gf has a nice body, you know it can spark strong arousal from their bfs when showing off such body in certain clothes even if not quite the same they first met. The reaction can still be quite strong and get a man very horny from such visual cues because of how nice the body parts look displaed even though he’s seen his gfs body obviously many times before naked.
You can say it’s because such clothes accentuate and sexualize her body. True and while men don’t usually have clothes that do that as much compared to many women’s clothes. There are some clothes though that show off men’s bodies and it makes me wonder if it turns on gfs and wives or women who are dating such guys or with them? You say its because men learn a fetish towards womens bodies, but even when the supposed fetish is off, like I said men still do or can get very visually excited by their gfs from clothes showing off their bodies. There are under armour shirts that can show off the male physique quite a bit especially if he’s in good or great shape and cut or ripped. The shirts are very tight and show the biceps and shoulder and pec definition shows through the shirts and they are basically made to highlight definition and muscles. It’s intersting that is one of the few clothess that are tight and not seen as gay for men to wear ha. I think it’s because those shirts are made to workout in, so the male body in action/utility. Therefore, they are not clothes meant really for fashion or to pose with so that might be it. But do gfs get strongly turned on seeing their men who are fit and just got done working out and muscles showing through? I klnow right when I get done lifting my muscles kind of get pumped a bit, and it’s a natural thing that happens after lifting.
What I was trying to say is that A sexy build on a guy–like nice toned arms, Nice chest, can be arousing in a similar way to what you are describing. Not a fetish. No woman will masturbate to it. It still possible that A guy will get a bit more aroused because female bodies are so much more sexualized.
I think the whole opposition of SOME women to men wearing revealing or tight clothes is pertinent here. The question is, if women are into men’s bodies, WHY the aversion to men showing off? Even fit, attractive ones? Like speedos, short shorts, tight jeans, or even tight shirts? I think a lot of it is they are conditioned by fashion and stupid frankly quite homophobic males who deride such fashions…the root cause is because it does sexualise men. Male sexuality is basically laughed off. You could say it’s symbolically covered by laughter or derision. Basically the media depiction of male sexiness is even MORE narrow than that of women: it’s basically a ‘ripped’ torso and arms. Simple as that. Rather lame, if you think about it.
“Still, testosterone does things like affect the male brain. And the male brain has about twice as much space devoted to sex as a woman’s brain does.”
Like you wrote here. Can’t this be part of the reason why women’s bodies are more sexualized and why men are more visual? Because men are generally hornier, with the space devoted to sex on his brain, which is why thinks about sex more often and is visually aroused easier than women?
Anyway something occured to men, which is why sometimes why women confuse me like other men. For instance, ok some women simply get turned on by their man because they like him. But many actually do get turned on by their bf, husband, fwb, or partner’s body when ready to have sex or simply when seeing their partner take their clothes of. And in my personal experience, I know the attraction and knowing the guy I’m sure had to do with it quite a bit. But also for me, my gfs arousal was from them liking me of course, but also after liking me, my body did have an influence upon their arousal. So a fit bf, or husband, etc sparking visual delight and arousal upon their woman seeing their bodies and these women getting turned on by the aesthetics of such bodies and wanting to touch them, etc.
Like to my blunt, male mind, what’s the difference aesthetically for the visual of such fit body being a turn on from say my girlfriend seeing my body when she knows me, to her seeing with before she knows me? Sure the difference is her not knowing me before and liking me and now knowing and liking me. But there isn’t a difference in my body or other fit guy’s bodies before and after. Yet suddenly it’s arousing? Visually there isn’t a difference.
It’s like having a burger shown to somebody, a nice looking burger, but the person seeing it doesn’t know the guy who brought out the burger so they aren’t affect much by seeing the burger. Have the same burger to the person but this time the person knows and likes the person serving them and now the burger is so delicious and appetizing. Umm, it’s the same damn burger. ha. The same aesthetics that a woman didn’t get aroused by from a fit man, now those same aesthetics of his fit body, now turn her on after she likes him, even though visually speaking nothing has chanced. Yep, makes a lot of sense. You can say it’s because her beijng attracted and likinng the guy sparks it, which yes, I get. However, more women than you think are affected visually speaking by the aesthetics of their bfs body. Sure many girls and women still desire sex and are turned on by their men. But I think people underestimate what a nice body on their bf or husband has on the wives and gfs and the “spark” it can have to their arousal.
On your first point, I see it like this: men aren’t naturally visual–you don’t find it in all cultures. Meanwhile, Women don’t have anything Visual that’s acceptable for most of them to look at. And yet, Women can experience the breast fetish, Too. Now, might men’s Brain structure make that fetish stronger, Once it’s created? Seems logical to me. I don’t know.
And I wouldn’t say that women don’t get turned on by men’s bodies at all. It depends on what you mean by turned on. The male body creates A fetish response in very few, If any, Women. But women could get turned on by a man’s abs the same way that A guy could get turned on buy a nice pair of legs. He probably won’t masturbate to them, but they could heighten his response. As another comparison, when the man has been with a woman for A few weeks, months or years her breasts don’t have a fetish effect. But he could still find them attractive and they could heighten his interest. Same with her and a guy’s well toned arms.
Both men and women get used to their partner over time so that the Visual arousal will tend to decrease. At the same time, if they become emotionally closer, the sex can still actually get better. The arousal comes from the connection rather than from looking at a body part.
It is difficult to feel sexy when men who have emotions are marginalized. Women can tell their GFs – i love how these clothes make me feel, these shoes make me look great. A guy can never tell his “guy friends” I love this suit, this tie is great or – wow – love these boxers. You would lose your “man card” instantly.
It is an interesting thing being a CD when you put on pretty, sexy things – you feel differently. I have experienced those different emotions first hand, wearing a formal & heels makes you feel so different than a suit & tie – maybe the clothes make the emotion. Or the clothes make the mask.
My wife has never said – dear you look sexy in your jeans and shirt, but I have told her she looks amazing in panties/bra, jeans and shirt or a skirt and heels. Because she does!
I would be happy if she told me I look sexy (she does not know about the CD thing).
Being sexy, sensual, or attractive is not something men are generally allowed to feel, it is a lesser status emotion. But I think men should feel it – it feels great – we need to let men feel sexy in suits & ties, jeans and shirts; not saying men need to wear panties & skirts to feel sexy. It is an equal opportunity emotion! It might help solve alot of other issues in relationships too!
I love getting the perspective of cross dressers because by straddling two words you all have a unique perspective that helps us to see things that are typically taken for granted.
I’d like to give another perspective on this subject.
A beautiful woman may compare herself to the female models and not feel sexy even though she is very attractive to men. The media has clouded her view of herself and her notions on how men see her.
The same can happen to sexy good looking man but on reverse.
A man is going to the gym and reading the fitness magazines and gets the idea of how a sexy man should look like – similar to women viewing the images of sexy women in the media.
He can accomplish the sexy lean body of the fitness mags and then he can believe that he is sexy, after all he looks now like a male model in the cover of a fitness magazine.
The problem though is, that even though he believes that he is very sexy, women don’t share these feelings because they were never taught that lean muscled male bodies are sexy.
So he overestimates his sex appeal and he believes that women *must* think he’s sexy but that’s not how women feel.
That means that sexy men feel sexy themselves but women don’t feel that sexy men are *that* sexy.
Just like women learned to view the female body as more sexy, I believe that (some) men, in particular those who work out, believe that the male body is more sexy than women think of male body.
It’s like men who work out can appreciate and admire a lean male body, thinking “great lats, amazing deltoids, I wish I had those biceps” but women don’t appreciate that much the male body.
I bet that a straight man (who works out) could admire a lean male body more than straight women could admire that same lean male body. He knows how hard it is to accomplish such a physique.
Makes sense in terms of how most women see men.
So men don’t feel sexy because women don’t “appreciate” the male form that much.
Nowhere near as much as men appreciate the female form.
That in the mind of men interpretes as “we see a beautiful woman and we acknowledged the fact she is sexy – but women don’t acknowledge that men can be sexy, that means that women don’t find men as sexy”
Men don’t feel sexy because that’s what they receive from women in real life or to be more precise because of what they do NOT receive – that’s admiration, compliments etc.
So most of the time they are oblivious that women can be attracted to men. They believe that most of the women care about men’s status, occupation, income etc.
Women can and do appreciate the male form. Just nowhere near as much. Doubt too many women masturbate to nude images of men, for instance. Or feel compelled to look at men on a regular basis.
That’s not to say that we don’t appreciate and enjoy the male form.
Perhaps women could still try to take more action in regard to this? As you’ve noted, most women don’t look at men the way I do…fair enough.
But I’d think that if they truly appreciate the “male form” in any way, then they should let the men they are attracted to know this. In everyday life, I see men complementing women on their hairstyles, clothing/jewelry choices, weight loss/gain, etc. However, I cannot easily recall times when I’ve seen women do the same.
How would you go about teaching women to acknowledge their appreciation of men’s bodies so that both can know they are sexy?
I’m not entirely sure why it is that women don’t tell men that they find them attractive. In my own experience, I haven’t wanted to seem like I was pursuing the guy and that’s why I avoided it. Sometimes it’s because I may have found him attractive, but had hear that guys might be turned off by women being the pursuers. Sexist, yes, but also counterproductive. If women were worried about that, then guys would need to let women know that they would welcome the complement rather than feeling like she’s chasing him — and that that would be a turn off.
I would say women ARE conditioned to see muscles as sexy, but not so much the average male body. Almost all depictions of ‘sexy men’ have a buff, well toned man. Yes, I know that sexy women are usually a certain type, but women are sexy for what they already have, whereas men must work to have a buff body to be considered sexy in media advertising/pop culture land. It makes a lot of guys think that if they just hit the gym ‘the chicks will flock to them like seagulls to a pile of garbage’. Of course, even with conditioning, it’s sort of reassuring to know that many women DON’T find this the ideal of sexiness…not to say there’s anything WRONG with this, and sure it can be sexy (and nothing wrong with finding it so). What’s wrong is saying, this is the ONLY body type a man can have to be sexy. What are women really into in this case, the man or his muscles? Why muscles? Is it the representation of strength?
For instance, why no lower body shots too? Perhaps it is just TOO sexual to show the crotch, although some torso shots do get close, but still, sometimes I feel women are more into the representation or symbolism of strength rather than men’s bodies, although maybe that’s part of sexuality for them, being dominated or whatever. I don’t know.
Because toned muscles are what the male body are constituted to have. The average male body would be lean, hard and slightly toned (that is also most women’s preference!) if the average guy would have a good diet and a healthy life.
The same goes for most men feeling attracted to more “plump” women. Women’s bodies are designed to store fat and be more curvy and soft.
I am sorry for posting again but I missed this one the first time I read your post
you wrote
“Meanwhile, straight women are more sexually drawn to men than to women. The whole “women are sexier” thing is more cognitive than emotional. So if we see a nude male and female, the female will likely look sexier. But if we’re straight, we’re more sexually/emotionally drawn to the guy.”
straight women are “more” sexually drawn to men than women?
the use of word “more” is very interesting. That would imply that straight women are at least a little bit sexually drawn to women but they are “more” to men.
a man wouldn’t say
[straight men are ‘more’ sexually drawn to women than to men]
he would say
[straight men are sexually drawn to women and not at all to men]
So I am a straight woman who is not at all sexually drawn to women but there could be some who are so I don’t want to be so definitive in my statement.
The reason why men don’t feel sexy has nothing to do with the media ignoring the male body.
It all has to do with women’s behaviour.
This is why men don’t feel sexy.
Women never let them know that they are attracted to them.
[“Really good looking guys don’t know they’re really good looking.”]
http://www.xojane.com/relationships/things-ive-learned-from-dating-really-good-looking-guys
My guess is that you just want to get a rise out of me, but I’ll add my two cents here anyway.
You are confusing two different types of attraction. As I written before, of course women find men attractive. But women appear more attractive in terms of our cultural imagery. And they are more fetishized. In fact I recently read something from a male psychology professor who said, “the female body is the primary metaphor for sexuality, its use saturates advertising, art and the mainstream erotic imaginary.” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/28/cliteracy_n_3823983.html
That kind of attractive is all about women.
And see this: Men, Women React to Male/Female Nudity
That’s not to say that the links you sent can’t be true, too. But it doesn’t mean that what I’ve talked about isn’t also true. But if you don’t want to believe that’s fine.
Hmmm, this goes back to the idea that women do this to keep the ‘power’ they have over men. While there might be some truth to the idea, I don’t think it discounts the original hypothesis, that cultural/society has a huge influence, which is something i believe in. I made very similar remarks/observations as Broadblogs before I found the blog. I mean I remember getting to the stage where, ‘I’m sick of seeing sexualised images of women everywhere. I’m actually getting a bit tired of being aroused, and what’s more getting a bit desensitized to them. Like why do I only see say women’s legs? Do men not have legs, are women the only gender that has legs? And why so little of men? I mean not that I want to check out men that way, but the whole disparity seemed kind of weird. It’s like when I sometimes think about why women have long hair and men short, and how there’s no biological reason for it, and how it just seems weird.
When I was younger I assumed female desire for males and their bodies was reciprocal. I mean, I knew that women were supposed to not have such strong sex drivers, but I assumed they appreciated male nudes the same way as we appreciated female ones. If you’d told me that so called straight women think women are sexier than men I would’ve been, wtf? Like I remember thinking, ‘damn, women are so sexy, how can anyone not be turned on by them?’ Then I was like, ‘oh but I guess (straight) women are into men not women, so it would have no affect on them.’ Although come to think of it, we are not immune to sexualised imaginary of the same sex just because we are straight. I would say the same for males who are not repressed about their sexuality as females.
I agree with what you said but I think saying “focus on looks” isn’t accurate.
Someone can’t say “oh that person has good looking facial features, I decide from now on to feel attracted to that person”. It’s not a decision or a calculation.
It’s a feeling, we see someone and we feel physical attracted to,
we can not make happen that consciously.
Still a person we may not be physical attracted to at first, after getting to know better, we realize that is a very attractive person and that we could be interested in dating.
I don’t think we are saying something different. It’s just that I don’t agree that physical attraction is “shallow” – it’s part of the human nature and there is nothing shallow in human nature.
What is shallow is the way society and media have made us thinking.
“Oh she’s very hot, I want to date her and everybody see me with her, everybody will be jealous”
“Hmmm… he’s got a good job, high income, high status, he can help me with my carrer”
If we value people on looks and OVERLOOK the personality then that’s shallow.
I mostly agree with you. But I still think it’s shallow. Some of the most amazing marriages I know are with two people who aren’t too good-looking in terms of conventional notions. They seem to be drawn to each other on some more spiritual level.
And when a couple has been together for quite a while they often stop noticing how attractive the other person is. Each starts looking more “ordinary.” They could still be deeply in love but their way of seeing each other has changed.
the above link shows that society has ingrained the notion that “women have to be beautiful but men don’t have to beautiful”
so if a beautiful man (=an indifferent male trait) is with an unattractive woman (=not good enough) then he must he have a weak personality (=not good enough) otherwise he would be with a beautiful woman (=high value woman)
But if an unattractive man (=an indifferent male trait) is with a beautiful woman (=high value woman) then he must have a great personality (=high value man)
Men are judged on their personality and women on their looks.
Men’s looks and women’s personality are secondary traits (unfortunately)
Makes sense.
The link that I am talking about
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/12/06/the-handsome-man-ugly-woman-couple-syndrome/
Women probably feel that physical attraction is shallow because they haven’t learned to value men on their looks, so they can’t feel the power of physical attraction at the same level that men do.
But men are “free” to feel physical attracted to women so they don’t really believe that’s shallow, every man can experience physical attraction and they know that’s natural. There’s nothing shallow about human nature, it just proves that we are humans.
Note that I am not talking about lust. When it’s lust a man is feeling turned on, with “physical attraction” he is feeling more nervous – butterflies in stomach.
But if we value people on their looks alone and we overlook their personality, yes that’s shallow. There were times I was physical attracted to a woman but when I realized that our personalities weren’t compatible I lost my interest in her.
Women do that also without realizing it.
Why so many men with good personality get “friendzoned” by women?
The bottom line is that our society taught us that men must be valued on their “active” traits – actions, reactions, manners, success, occupation, income. Good looking man with a weak personality? no woman would care.
but women must be valued on their “passive” traits – physical appearance.
That’s why everybody (men and women) expect that men should make the first move.
Women use their passive trait – that’s appearance – and men must use their active trait – that’s approach and initiate contact -. If a woman isn’t beatuful then she’s low value and if a man can’t approach then he’s low value.
and if women cared only about the personality, why then so many men with good personalities get “friendzoned” ?
It’s not just a “good personality” but a personality that fits you really well.
Women are just as interested in looks as men are in determining who to date early on.
Looks may be powerful, but they are short-lived, and they don’t tell you much about who the person is inside. You can miss out on a lot of amazing people if you just focus on looks.
I don’t understand when someone says that is attracted to person because of that person’s looks, that’s being described as shallow. Of course personality it what will keep a person at a relationship but we can’t overlook physical attraction, that’s natural. We can’t force ourselves to feel attracted to someone. If having a compatible personality was enough to start a relationship then we should start dating our friends. I don’t want to date my friends because I don’t feel attracted to them. If physical attraction wasn’t neccessary what would be the difference then between friendship and romantic relationship?
Women have learn to not value men on physical appearance. It’s like asking women to “forget” that they are also sexual beings just like men are. When it comes to attraction it’s not “personality vs physical appearance” but it’s “personality + physical attraction”.
We shouldn’t compare a person with ‘average looks and great personality’ to a person with ‘good looks and average personality’.
That would get us confuse, attraction isn’t a mathematical formula.
The best way to understand that it’s “personality + physical appearance” is to compare a person to himself/herself.
This is the same person, which means that he has the same personality.
When he is more desirable by women?
or the way he looks doesn’t make a difference?
But physical attraction is kind of shallow. And I’ve actually been attracted to men who weren’t all that physically attractive because they felt like soulmates – we had so much in common. I mean, yes they passed a certain bar, I will admit that, but they weren’t all that exciting to look at.
But what’s considered physically attractive varies from culture to culture, too. And our culture could certainly broaden things beyond what’s considered attractive these days.
What’s considered attractive has been narrowed on purpose so that people will feel insecure about their appearance and buy lots of products. It’s a great money-maker.
I definitely feel the cosmetics industry has been huge in promoting that standard of beauty. People have to learn to detach themselves from the images and messages they’re bombarded with. I think spending less time keeping up your appearance, taking up other interests.etc helps. I am not a woman, however, so I do understand there would still be immense pressure from peers and men and women, who can be annoyingly judgemental, to look a certain way. I guess one good thing about males not being objectified as much is our appearance isn’t put under the microscope so much, although it is rather annoying for EVERYONE to comment on how I look like I’ve put on weight. I mean that would be so not okay to say to a woman, right? haha
Not okay. Yet overweight women can still hear it plenty.
Bus drivers and plumbers make more money than people think, especially commercial plumbers can make a lot of $. Yeah these jobs aren’t taking incomes like a lawyer or doctor, etc, but its a regular middle class income that a lot of families have. I’m talking about when there’s a huge discrepancy in income. Like a rich woman and a man that is not making much over minimum wage, you know like mcdonalds. You’re much more likely to see a male doctor dating or in a relationship with a hot girl working at a not much more than minimum wage salary than a wealthy woman dating or be in a relationship with a guy flipping burgers even if he is hot.
But you seem to be blaming women when you should be blaming the culture.
This arises because we rank men above women.
So men are uncomfortable being the lower-ranked person in a relationship. And women are uncomfortable being the higher-ranked person in a relationship.
I’ll be writing about a particularly horrendous example of this that will be posted probably next week.
The problem is sexism. You wouldn’t have this problem if we had equality. And among my friends who don’t mind women outranking men in status and money, they’re all feminists.
Here’s more:
It’s Ok To Be A Tomboy But Not A Sissy. Why?
Here are a couple posts on why women so often hold strong to the inequality that harms them:
Why Do Women Fight Against Their Own Interests?
Frats Invite Sluts, Bitches; Women Accept Degradation. Why?
I’m not frustrated myself, I’m lucky I’m a good looking guy with personality, but I realize what its like when I was shyer and before I came out of my shell. Just because a man is interested in a woman first on her looks, doesn’t mean he thinks thats all her worth is. Guys are very visual and they have to find the woman pretty, or cute to him first to be interested to know her more. Stop looking at ads about what men think of women, those ads play on men’s visual nature and women’s insecurity to make $, they don’t care about men or women, but the holy dollar. I judge women on both looks and personality. You can attract guys personality, like I said, there are plenty of women who aren’t conventionally attractive, but they are dating guys or have boyfriends and husbands right? And it goes both ways, how succesful women or hot women do you see in relationships with a guy who works at mcdonalds even if he’s hot? Yeah women do and date guys who they have a little bit more income, but you’ll see a rich guy or doctor marry or date a hot girl who works at mcdonalds or pretty one. A woman other hand won’t give a man a chance in the reverse even if he is trying to better himself. Which women are appreciating these guys characteristics, if women aren’t bothering to show any attention to guys in various venues, especially for average or less looking guys? Yeah they’ll appreciate his personality, etc after they talk and that’s her wanting to engage him or give a signal that shes interested. That interest though from women, especially in smaller towns, cities, doesn’t seem to show much, so guys aren’t getting any attention compared to you and others.
A lot of women wish that men valued them in similar ways to how women value men. And it seems to be vice versa, too, as you explain. Grass is always greener…
There is also a lot of overlap in that both men and women both seem to care first and foremost about looks at least initially. But other things become more important. And sometimes what starts out as friendship – because there’s not a huge physical attraction – can turn to love, on both sides.
The fact that women tend not to marry men who make less money than them has as much to do with men as women. Men tend to be uncomfortable marrying women with more money and status. But I do have a couple of friends who are exceptions to this “rule.” One is a prosecutor who’s married to a bus driver. Another is a therapist who is married to a plumber.
I’m pretty sure that the post I have scheduled for a Friday coming up soon gets into this some more.
If there wasn’t the fear of being described as “sluts” or the female sexuality was not repressed, then women would be more likely to initiate conversations and make the first move?
But females learn that they shouldn’t gaze at men in a sexual way and then we have frustrated men wondering why women don’t feel that men are sexy enough. That’s because our society taught them to think like that.
I wonder how would it be if it was the other way. Imagine men learning they must not gaze at the female body, and feeling shame if they had any sexual desire towards the female body.
“I wonder how would it be if it was the other way. Imagine men learning they must not gaze at the female body, and feeling shame if they had any sexual desire towards the female body.”
That’s a very interesting question. Not just in terms of women asking it out but more generally.
But the problem isn’t even so much women worried about being thought sluts or desperate in terms of asking a man out as gender ranking. Then she takes on the leader role and him the follower role. In our culture, because of sexism, women are still uncomfortable with that.
See my response to Brian, above, for more on that.
If you had a combination of women gazing at men and women needing to wait around and be asked out so that they don’t become “the leaders,” then women would be incredibly frustrated. Way worse than guys are today. Because women would have no power to make a move at all, when they would soooo want to.
I think what some women don’t seem to realise, is just because a man might be OPEN to having sex with a lot of women (let’s face it, the majority of single guys would sleep with an attractive woman, no matter how little the emotional connection, it’s biology) doesn’t mean he wants to be in a relationship with someone who is just hot and sexy (of course some do, I’m talking about those who do not). In terms of a serious RS or marriage partner, men appreciate a lot of OTHER things to. Not all of us want some vacuous trophy wife. We too appreciated the usual human traits of kindness, intelligence, humour, etc (but I’m sure you already know this). Of course, like in women, it doesn’t mean looks won’t matter at all. We can’t kid ourselves, only a minority can truly overlook looks imho.
Personally I have no problem marrying a woman who earns more than me. Screw the whole male ego thing, I would count myself lucky! Not that I plan to mooch off her, btw, I would be proud of her, like I hope she would be proud of me.
Yeah, not all guys have a problem with wives earning more than them.
Also, I written the bit about your other point:
How Guys Think About Sex & Dating
Guys Are Getting More Romantic
Guys Just Wanna Have Relationships?
Guys: Romantic? Or Just Want One Thing?
Hookup Culture
Getting Creeped Out to Fit In
And I will be writing more.
This is interesting
http://www.livescience.com/17483-sex-attraction-interest-deception.html
Men overestimate women’s interest in them EXCEPT for good looking men.
Good looking men unerestimate women’s interest in them.
It’s like subcounsciously average looking man thinking “she is interested in me, I will go for it”
so their mating success is based on approaching many women.
But good looking men don’t think like that subcounsciously,
They will still have mating success even if they don’t approach women that often.
I thought about posting on this. The link you gave would give men more hope than the article I read. Maybe I’ll write on it sometime.
No, Hina, it’s because men like knowing their bodies are arousing or sexy and being lusted, but their body is not sexy enough to get that response from women. Even thought that calvin klein commercial goes to prove how men’s bodies can be or are arousing to women t see even if not fetishsized in certain instances. You see the attention and women’s comments on that video for youtube and their reactions seemed to show “excitiment” to that man’s body. Objectifying would not be welcomed based on sexualzing, because that would be another count against men. That’s the last thing many guys who are sexually frustrated and shy or awkward or weird, etc and not getting any date. They may know or feel they are’t great looking, but they might get some girls on their wealth, personality, success, or something othat than the physical and then ads come up and girls are lusting after these hot guys bodies, so it makes guys feel like there’s another knock against them for getting attention from girls.
Brian I’m sorry but do you expect me to sympathize with these men you speak of? As a woman I don’t even have an option to get men’s attention based on my personality, and success. I would much rather have it that way than be judged only on my looks because at least that way men will be interested in me for who I am and what I do instead of being objectified(placing my worth based on how attractive I am is objectifying because those are the same superficial standards we have for judging objects).
I have no sympathy for someone who isn’t considered a conventionally attractive person who is sad about not get attention from another attractive person. What are you frustrated about? The fact that women can judge you on the same shallow standards you judge them on? If you want to be noticed by women for your characteristics related to you as a person and not just your looks then you should have the same standards for women.
I believe the reason behind this is because men are afraid of being objectified the way women are. Just youtube the calvin klein commercial from super bowl and read the comments from men and you’ll see what i’m talking about. Like mentioned above, straight women are sexually attracted to men so obviously women find men sexy. The only problem is, how we see beauty and the beauty standards we have are set by society and not some universal truth. Which is why in some cultures pale skin is considered beautiful and others tan skin is, in some cultures muscle are considered unattractive and others they’re not. This is the reason why we find older men as more attractive but not older women. We are taught these things. Men want to be seen as sexy but they’re afraid that it might cause them to be objectified so men’s sexiness is tied to what they do. A man in a suit or sports jersey is considered sexy because we tie that to power and/or success.
Makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for contributing your perspective on this.
Hina, the men who make these comments and who are afraid of being objectied the way women are, aren’t that good looking themselves or they are too lazy to get in shape.
So if men get sexually objectifies like women are, that would mean that men would also HAVE to be good looking and fit to be able to get a date. Women learn that, and that’s why they starve and buy makeup and clothes and are obssessed trying to look good.
Men simply don’t want to have to do that.
They want to stay lazy and unfit and eat everything they want and still be able to get the beautiful woman because “men don’t have to look good”.
I know many men who constantly talk to women and getting rejected and go talking to another woman. That’s the only way for most of the men to get a date. They think that everybody has to do that because they can’t realize that there are some good looking men that get attention from women, and women trying to initiate contact with them.
I think these men, who have this idea that they want to be the one chasing, appreciating and don’t want the opposite, are making it harder for themselves in the long run. By de-emphasising their sexuality, or saying stupid things like ‘how can women be attracted to men?’ they are just putting women off men. While of course I wouldn’t want a society where men were objectified to the extent women are, I would welcome a bit more positive female attention of my bod. I don’t know if you agree with me, but I feel actually in some ways the trend hasn’t always been towards males being seen as sexier. I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, but look at swimwear circa 1930s an compare it to today. What do you notice? It’s a lot more gender neutral, right? Men and women wear almost identical swimwear. Men cover their chests too. Looking at their bodies, they aren’t as DIFFERENT as is portrayed today in terms of the ideal. For instance, their bodies were more ‘normal’. They had ‘normal’ sized white limbs, the men weren’t all buff and chiselled, the women weren’t thin, tanned with disproportionately large breasts. I wonder how that would’ve played into things? Fast forward to the 50s and 60s…women started wearing bikinis, men more shorter swimming trunks…and many women considered these sexy. Now you have women who actually seem SHOCKED at the idea of men showing off thigh, I mean that definitely is not natural, is it? You think Amazonian women are like, ‘ewww wear some pants!’ I just thing it’s rather bizarre. It’s to the extent that men’s legs are hardly even appreciated these days. It’s funny that men are usually only seen as sexy if they have muscles. I mean why is this? Social conditioning I dare say. I searched ‘sexy men’ on google image search and sure enough, as I expected, most of these blokes looked like they hit the gym and heavy weights at least 5 days a week. I mean other than that, why is there so much focus on male genitalia, as if we’re nothing but penises? Why not a more holistic appreciation for the male form?
“I don’t believe it is biological because when the Europeans first arrived in the Americas the Indian women had random sex with lots of men. You find a similar pattern in Tahiti when the Europeans first arrived. That’s why Paul Gauguin liked it so well – or one of the reasons.
In America today women are socialized to be very relationship oriented, and emotional. Men, on the other hand, are socialized to be independent and to suppress their emotions. Women are also slut-shamed if they don’t have sex in a context of love. They are widely taught that that’s how they should “do sex.””
It seems like you believe the differences between men and women are social constructs. Forever there has always been the debate of nurture vs nature and its always been pretty split and aruging over it seemed like and argument of what came first, “the chicken or the egg” argument. It seems there are differences between men and wome, or there has to be by nature as the sexes are different obviously. So why do you think things are or would be more similar for men and women in regards to sexuality, but you maybe accept the differences elsewhere? Or do you also think men and women’s differences outside of sex, is also constructed? It seems biologically there are differences as in men more aggressive, etc and women more nurturing and women the caretakers. I mean I would think there wouldn’t be dysmorphism between the sexes as men being bigger and stronger, thus made to be the protecters.
What I’m getting at, is even thought I think a great percentage of guys are decent, unfortunately, mass majority of violent crimes throughout the earth are and have been men. I think like 90s of violent crimes are men and like 99.9% of rapes as in forced sexual assault, not statutory, are committed by men even though statutory rapes are mostly from men too. I hated to admit this, but I think men are more violent than women, because how testosterone makes men more aggressive and the violent minded guys to impulsively act, even thought I think culture promotes male violence. But without social conditioning towards men as it is, do you think men would be less violent as women or if things were reveresed with conditioning if women would committ more violent crimes? I cant imagine that, because I can’t imagine rape happening to much as in women comitting even if social constructs were reversed and men were objectified sexually and nothing else and women had the power roles. I think everyone has had the curiosity of what life with only women would be? Would it be peaceful and utopian or would some of the more aggressive, tom boy women take control and play the more assertive, “male” roles, and others passive roles and their still be power conflicts and struggles too?
I think that there are some biological limitations but that for the most part we are socially constructed.
Estrogen also makes women aggressive. Some mice were bred so that they no longer had estrogen and their aggression also went away. Imagine how aggressive a mother can be while protecting her young.
Women are also more sensitive to the testosterone they have, even though it’s at a lower level then what men have.
Testosterone isn’t always associated with aggression, either. Some men with high levels of testosterone are not very aggressive.
New research also suggests that testosterone isn’t as tied to our sex drive as we had once thought. So increasing testosterone in women doesn’t have a huge effect on their sex drive. Still, testosterone does things like affect the male brain. And the male brain has about twice as much space devoted to sex as a woman’s brain does.
Also, testosterone causes men to devote more of their calories to muscle building, whereas estrogen causes women to store more fat — nature’s way of helping women to survive droughts and cold weather.
There aren’t many things that you can predict by knowing the sex of a person, but there are a few things like how much upper body strength they have. Take a look at this post:
Men, Women not from Mars, Venus
“Some women like attention from men and some don’t. Many dress accordingly to that desire. Although some women get attention from men even when they don’t want to. Maybe their body is built such that they pretty much always look pretty sexual. Or, they may be dressing to attract the attention of a particular guy but then get attention from lots of guys that they hadn’t planned on attracting”
Yeah I think women take for granted how their bodies are naturally sexual to men. And they would only realize it if walking in men’s shoes, as well as men realizing what women have to put up with too though. What I found interesting about the role reversal video is how conditioned things effect our mind. Like when I watched the video, I remember thinking how its amazing how roles reversed like how men act in this video makes them not just act feminine, but “gay”, whereas the women just look aggressive. But it’s not just men thinking that, like I could see how women would see that too. Like when the guys were dancing, and the brushed her off so they could continue dancing. Straight guys normally would take that opporunity especially if the girl is pretty like in the video. So it makes them look “gay” for rejecting her there for each other, and a girl coming in to dance would most likely think the guys are gay too. But women doing that to guys,..no one would see them as lesbians so much as them simply not wanting to be bothered.
Yeah it’s interesting how our conditioning affects our perception of things.
It seems like women are emotional or relate sex to more emotions than men. Is that socially conditioned too? It seems like women don’t or can’t seperate emotions and sex compared to men generally. Which is why women feel used or hurt more often or even ones who wanted something casual, less fulffilled or unfufilled compared to men. That seems biological, but just wondering that too, because even you stated that for yourself and women before.
I don’t believe it is biological because when the Europeans first arrived in the Americas the Indian women had random sex with lots of men. You find a similar pattern in Tahiti when the Europeans first arrived. That’s why Paul Gauguin liked it so well – or one of the reasons.
In America today women are socialized to be very relationship oriented, and emotional. Men, on the other hand, are socialized to be independent and to suppress their emotions. Women are also slut-shamed if they don’t have sex in a context of love. They are widely taught that that’s how they should “do sex.”
I know you’ve mentioned them before…what are the matriarchal societies/tribes you usually talk about? And how many of them are still around today, if any?
Do *these* women attach a lot of emotion to sex, or do they act more casually, like Western men tend to?
If you’re talking about cultures in which women have sex with whomever they would like, I’m talking about the American Indians that Europeans met when they first came to the Americas. I’m also aware of some Pacific Islanders like Tahitians. All before European contact.
The Europeans were quite appalled and felt it very necessary to convert everyone to Christianity. They might have thought that anyway but the level at which they were appalled may have increased the feeling.
I have no idea about the emotional connection that the women had with these men. I always assumed that if you are having sex with a lot of people that you wouldn’t feel as emotionally connected to them as if you are devoted to one person.
Thanks. I wanted to research this in greater detail on my own. Wasn’t sure if there were any particular tribes I should be focusing on, or if most of the Native Americans on the east coast practiced this.
I’m specifically aware of the Cherokee and the Iroquois. Maybe they were all that way, I’m not sure.
Also the Tahitians, who aren’t Indian.
Just saying, wome have self esteem issues from their body, but atleast they know they have desirable body parts. They have body parts men are crazy about, while men don’t know this or feel this from women, let alone compliments or attention to their looks. Women have self esteem issues with their body, but think how women would feel if they stopped getting attention from men or things were reversed or didn’t get visual lust towards their bodies and looks. You say that would be better, but I think its a double edged sword. Women don’t like the leering or objecting, but I think women are used to attention from guys or that attraction to their bodies. This might make women feel less desirable if men needed and emotional connection to be turned on by their bodies or say women wanted sex, but you know, guys stopped pursuing women and giving attention and women had to be the pursuers and the rejection.
Like in that video you had that showed a role reversal at the bar. And a woman is proud of her body and feel she should be desired and wants sex, yet she has to swallow her pride, because she’s not getting any, because she has to approach and risk rejection, because her body doesn’t create enough lust for guys to make the effort? Who knows maybe guys would know the frustation it is for women to not be seen as more than beauty and maybe women would know the frustration of guys. In the sense of desirable, and have the looks and personality, but aren’t getting laid, because its hard for them to meet women in a small area or its hard for them approaching girls in bars, and knowing less attractive guys are getting laid. If a woman is feeling sexually frustrated, all she has to do is wink at a guyor something like that and get that ego stroke, even though she isn’t planning to sleep with him,
The thing is, women often don’t think they have desirable body parts. Their breasts are too small or too saggy. Their butts are too big…
So most women have poor body image and often lose self-esteem when they first have sex with a guy.
And plenty of women don’t get attention from men. I think that those women are invisible to men, so men just assume that all women get tons of attention.
Some women like attention from men and some don’t. Many dress accordingly to that desire. Although some women get attention from men even when they don’t want to. Maybe their body is built such that they pretty much always look pretty sexual. Or, they may be dressing to attract the attention of a particular guy but then get attention from lots of guys that they hadn’t planned on attracting.
But the problem with objectification, as I said, isn’t the attention so much. It’s not being taken seriously. It’s being used by men rather than having emotionally connected sex. It’s not being able to get a job. It’s the low self-esteem that comes from not meeting American beauty ideals. It’s the eating disorders and low self-esteem the follow that. It’s an inability to enjoy sex because you’re so focused on either how great you look or worried about how bad you look. Here’s more on the harm:
Sexual Objectification, The Harm
Does Sexual Objectification Lead to Bad Sex?
Anything Good About Being A Sex Object?
re “Like in that video you had that showed a role reversal at the bar. And a woman is proud of her body and feel she should be desired and wants sex, yet she has to swallow her pride, because she’s not getting any, because she has to approach and risk rejection, because her body doesn’t create enough lust for guys to make the effort? Who knows maybe guys would know the frustation it is for women to not be seen as more than beauty and maybe women would know the frustration of guys.”
Yeah. That’s why I put that video on my blog.
I’ll echo the fact that sometimes a woman is “built sexy”. I’m often told that I’m pretty/hot/etc. I’m 5’7″, 150 lbs, 34DD breasts, large hips/buttocks, and a somewhat skinny waist…think an hourglass shape without such an impossibly narrow middle. Given the fact that I have Gender Dysphoria, having a sexy female body is still disconcerting, especially when strangers comment on it or praise it. I’ve even had business meetings where my male coworkers will get a firm handshake and a pat on the back…but even though I’m in the same uniform (no makeup or cleavage either) I’ll get a hug or they’ll kiss my hand. It may seem cute to some, but it only reinforces the fact that I’m initially seen as female, and thus different enough to warrant separate (demeaning) greetings.
And that’s just how I feel because of my masculine mind. I can’t imagine how it is for women who are women and try to stay feminine while being taken seriously!
It’s just an interesting thing. Because it seems like a doulbe edged sword. Like it sucks in that sense for women, but woman take for granted the attention they get compared to the lack of attention men get. It’s weird that women are more self conscious even though their bodies are seen as more “sexy” as you’ve said. I know men don’t worry too much because they can attract girls on personality, wealth, etc. But it’s not exactly fun for guys trying to attract girls or approach and get rejected. Fact of the matter, from a guy perspective, I would think if things were reversed and women were lusting over men’s body parts like men do for women. And they were approaching him simply because of his body, he would probably feel like on sexy beast. Like women approaching and wanting sex from a man, based on his body. It would be funny in the sense of, that a guy could be 300lbs and hairy, but still feel like he’s got a really, sexy body, based on the lust the women are showing or them approaching him and him getting laid left and right. Yes, there maybe models women lust for in ads, whom these men are very fit and have much better bodies than this fat man and maybe this fit guys would get even more sex. But unlike women having to be the hottest, I don’t think this would hurt the fat man’s esteem or he’d care that the sexualized men’s bodies are hotter, because he’s still having quite a bit of women coming on to him and sex. So what women feel bad about their bodies because of this, I think if things were reversed men would feel sexier.
The problem for women isn’t so much the attention – which is an exaggeration. Plenty women don’t get all that much attention. The problem is when women are seen as being about sex and only sex. Here’s the problem with that:
Anything Good About Being A Sex Object?
The image of men that you have your mind, with women fetishizing their bodies, is men who are more multidimensional. Other aspects of themselves are recognized. So that doesn’t keep them from getting good jobs and being taken seriously, etc. Instead, if they’re sexy and desired, that’s a great addition.
Also, manhood often rests in large part on their ability to have sex with a lot of women. So adding a fetishization of men’s bodies could only enhance that. Women having sex with lots of men does not enhance her womanhood. It creates a sense of being a slut and stigmatization.
There are likely other differences that also make it difficult to make a direct comparison.
Brian, it’s not women’s body that is seen as sexy, its one type of women’s body that is seen as sexy. That is the root of the problem. When people say women’s bodies are beautiful they mean a woman who has big breasts and a good waist to hip ratio. They’re not referring to Nicole Richie or Oprah. Yes men can still be attracted to women who don’t have 35″ 24″ 35″ body measurements but that doesn’t really make anything better. Women know they’re not the ideal woman men want and they can’t increase their value by other things because the aspect they’re valued on the most is their looks. Which is very damaging!
Yes, exactly, as you said men find women’s bodies sexier than women realize.Thats why I don’t understand. Yeah many women don’t look like those models in ads, but look all around you and listen to guys and they find tons of women hot and a good variety of body, shapes and sizes of women sexy and arousing. It seems like it comes from women’s problem of having to be the best, and they simply can’t be happy with just being attractive to men, but have to be the hottest or hotter than the next girl, which is sad.Kind of like how some girls get jealous of attention another woman gets over her, even though she wouldn’t be sleeping with the guys anyway. It seems ego based to me. Many men actually like your average woman’s body more than the skinny, unrealistic bodies too. And yes, I don’t get the self consciousness for women being naked infront of a guy. You would think they would not be at all, since they most likely get attention from guys towards their bodies throught their day and would think they’d realize from this attention, they have the “goods” so to speak.
I think it’s because the word “model” is a very accurate word for what happens. Young girls and women see what they are supposed to look like. They have models to show them what they’re supposed to look like. But these models do not look like real women. They are women who are naturally thin but still starve themselves, and after all that they are Photoshopped.
But a lot of girls don’t get that.
And it’s done on purpose by industry. They want a “model” that is impossible for any woman to achieve. That’s because they make money by making people feel bad about themselves and providing hope that they can look like “that.” If they just buy a lot of product. So it creates a lot of sales.
Add to that the fact that a girl’s self-worth is very dependent on how beautiful she thinks she is, and where she think she fits in the pecking order. So that causes a lot of the things you talk about with women wanting to be hotter than other women, and to be the hottest.
If you look at the “body image” section of my blog you will see that I discuss this problem a lot. I’m hoping to help girls to overcome this problem of self-esteem.
I think this objectification toward women, while not always good for their image. I find it interesting though, as in a sense, I would think this attention to women’s bodies, at least makes women’s bodies desirable so I don’t get the bad self image. For men it would make sense more for the lack of esteem about their body desirability.
The thing is that what’s considered “sexy” often looks nothing like a real woman’s body. And real women know that. So that’s why they often don’t feel sexy. Studies suggests that real men find real women sexier than women realize they do. But their self-esteem suffers, nonetheless.
Some women are perfectly fine with how they look – whether they think they’re sexy or not – until they have to get naked around a man, too. See this post:
Lose Virginity, Lose Self-Esteem?
This is a great post Georgia! I would have thought that the fact that the male body has not been fetishized in the same manner as the female would be a plus for men. Men are much less reliant on their physical appearance than women when attracting partners. At least that is what people think.
But as you say, when it comes to partners the physical aspect becomes much less important whether it’s with a man or woman. I’ve had some of my most important connections with people who I wouldn’t even notice on the street, or pick out of a crowd. People who I’ve gotten to know over time and become really attracted to based on much more than looks.
Men are plenty beautiful, why else would the great artists sculpt and paint and photograph the male form so much? Male sexual arousal is targeted by advertisers in order to make men buy things, and female insecurity is targeted to make women buy things. These seem to be the most effective ways of selling to the sexes, and the worries, anxieties and confusions are the symptom of this conditioning.
Thanks for sharing!
Rohan.
Thanks for adding some insight from a masculine perspective.
Women don’t feel sexy at all. Most women are not happy with their body, and their self esteem has been damaged by this for a ages!
And guys do and lose that visual lust. They are still crazy over their gfs boobs and ass. Yeah it’s not something new, but for me, whenever my gf wore a top that showed cleavage, I couldn’t want to take it off or think about sex later with her even though I’ve seen her naked boobs plenty of times before. and I know tons of guys who are that way too, unless their gf is heavy now and less attractive.
Okay I will answer this one but this is the last time I’m going to talk about something on this topic.
First, what you are experiencing when the fetish disappears here is similar to what a woman could experience with a man she finds very attractive.
That said, what you experience is likely heightened because “cleavage” has become a huge sexual signal, and so it is probably stronger than what a woman experiences in looking at a man’s buns or abs or gorgeous face.
The cleavage fetish is learned and not natural. And with all of the focus we put on it, it has become a huge sexual signal in our culture. You don’t find this sort of thing in all cultures.
John, women going crazy over male singers, actually disproves the visual part.These women are going crazy, over these guys shows its more talent, and status of these guys that makes them go crazy for them. To prove this, do you think girls would be throwing themselves at Justin Bieber if he wasn’t a famous singer? Guys do that all the time, for non famous but pretty girls. Even good looking guys don’t usually get that. And another point, if it was about looks, these girls would not be throwing themselves at bieber, he’s not good looking and he’s actually a d bab from a lot of reports now. He looks 16 when hes like 20 now and is bird chested. The boys from one direction are kinda of girly looking too. Looks can play a role to add more attraction as Adam Levine, is a pretty good looking guy and Robin Thicke is a good looking guy too, who women love now and they actually look like guys. Guys don’t go crazy for female singers, because guys are less perhaps drawn to women based on their talent as far as lust goes. But, you notice the girls guys talk about who are singers, are hot or pretty? How many guys you see talking about how they want ADele? Whereas, you’ll hear that for them wanting katy perry, selena gomez, Beyonce, etc. But then you have girls going crazy and lusting for bieber or other not so great looking guy singers. I mean, Gene Simmons from Kiss, slept with thousands of women, and he is one ugly looking dude.
It doesn’t entirely disprove it. I was thinking along the same lines of you except that women are much more likely to scream for artists who are attractive than those who aren’t. I suspect that their good looks play some role there.
So women don’t scream for Gene Simmons. But some will have sex with him because that’s a different thing. Then they experience themselves as having sex with the gods – the rock gods, that is. And take on feeling deified, themselves, in someway.
Hmm I dont think so. If they are famous but not good looking girls wont go crazy for them. About Justin Bieber , yes. I know many of good looking guys who get many girls crushed on them because they are good looking. And the way you describe Bieber arent good looking and One Direction is girly looking, its the problem with this statement. Girls do find “girly boys” attractive. You may find One Direction girly looking but for women they are attractive. Men often wrong about what they think women find attractive in men. We think women care about penis size, while most women dont. We think women find muscular men attractive, while the reality is most women find slender toned slim body type more attractive. We think women find rugged manly face attractive while the reality is most women find pretty “girly” cute face more attractive. And thats are the reason why porn arent attractive to women, because men in porn are not what most women find attractive. Men in porn are all huge, muscular, ripped, have huge penis. Thats why James Deen is big phenomena now. Hes porn actor who have slender slim body ( not huge and muscular ) and cute rather girly face. If you dont know him, search him, hes super famous among ( surprise ) WOMEN. Yes, if we put attractive not over muscular men in porn actually more women watch porn.
Thats why I dont really agree with women arent visual and women find women bodies more arousing than men bodies. I dont think so. Although maybe women arent fetishized men bodies in the same level as women bodies, I think women are visual and attracted by men looks and bodies ( just not the type we think, huge muscular men ) , and many of them just dont openly admitted they found men bodies sexually arousing.
Before I finished this post, I want to add one more proof about women are visually attracted to men. Japanese Gay Video ( JGV ). I bet most of you who arent japanese or asians dont know about this phenomena. Its Japanese gay porn with cute and rather girly actors and slender slim body, and its have HUGE women watchers and followers. Just google this if you dont believe it. Search keyword “jgv” and “tumblr”. You will find many tumblr site created by women dedicated to jgv.
I think women are attracted and aroused by men bodies more than society think. Those who do usually arent very vocal about it. Its different to men who are very vocal about their appreciation of women bodies. Its because society still put down women who openly admitted their sexual interest towards men as a “sluts”
I agree with you up to your last paragraph.
Women may be more attracted by men’s bodies than society thinks. But they are still less attracted by men’s bodies than men are too women’s for reasons I discuss in another comment to you. So I won’t go into it again.
Girls like the pretty boy, girly face. It’s like a stage,, but as girls get older their tastes change too. Women, like handsome good looking guys who look like men, though good looking. For example, much more women and girls find Ryan Gosling, ryan reynolds, george clooney, adam levine, etc sexier, better looking and hotter than justin bieber and one direction. Girls find them hot,but when older and out of that stage, women like these guys. It makese sense for girls to like pretty girly boys, but it makes more sense for women to like handsome men more. I mean, why are women straight if they are more visually attracted to “prettiness”, when women beat out men on “prettieness”. If’ you’re drawn to rugged good looks, or pretty boy good looks, but not girly, then that makes sense to be sexually attracted to men, as men are “handsome” while women not. Just as women prettier or pretty compared to men.
Women like both types. It depends on the woman.
Bieber and the guys from One Direction are hot as hell in my opinion. Many, many girls like the pretty boys. Seriously, MANY girls actually prefer more feminine boys/men.
And no, they are attracted to their hotness, sorry. If they were ugly no girl (well, much much less girls) would be obsessing over them.
Groupies are senseless people, and many of them will sleep with them for drugs.
Often times the groupies sleep with them because rockstars take on demi-god status — rock gods — so groupies feel they are having intercourse with the gods. Or, in sleeping with them they are almost famous — like the name of the movie about groupies (based on a true story) “Almost Famous”.
There’s always something weird to me about this “women aren’t visual and women aren’t attracted by looks (but by men personality ) things”. Yes, if we just look at porn and media, we can see that men obviously are more easily get aroused by looks alone on the opposite sex. But if we looks more than just “aroused” stage, I found its women who are more easily get crazy by looks alone on opposite sex. Why I said this? Just look at how million of teenage and young girls around the world go crazy, really crazy for a group of handsome and cute boys named One Direction. Look at the fever of korean boyband in Asia. Look at how Justin Bieber is worshiped by million of teenage girls. Again handsome movie stars, like Taylor Lautner, Rob Pattinson, Johnny Depp. I always think about this, if women dont really get attracted by men looks, how its this phenomena explained? I’m sure its all more about their looks than their personality ( just look at Justin Bieber making headlines all over media ). If we look at those men, they have one similarity, they are all good looking. We dont know if their personality is good or not, but girls still got crazy for them. Then if we examined men behavior, men may get more easily aroused by looks alone, but it seems to me I rarely met a guy who get crazy for female singers / actresses just by their looks alone.
Thats why I feel weird whenever women said they aren’t attracted by men looks, but men personality, but I see young women and adult women go crazy and obsessed about good looking male singers and celebrity.
And when it comes to choosing a dating partner men and women seem to care equally about looks.
Women are definitely visual, too. Look at how they have a keen eye for color and fabric.
Even when it comes to arousal many women feel aroused by breasts – and end up on my blog reading “women learn the breast fetish too.” These are straight women who are confused. A lot of people think that the breast fetish is biologically wired into man. But it is not. You don’t find it in all cultures. It is a socially constructed signal that both men and women have learn to respond to on some levels.
We just haven’t fetishized anything about the male body. That’s why women don’t respond to man-parts in a highly aroused way.
Yes, women are visual too, and its not just about color and fabric, women definitely visual about men looks too. I know many women who feel aroused by men bodies, the shape of our shoulders, arms, chest, abs. And although with some of points you wrote, I dont think women who learn breast fetish are that many like you wrote. I think there are far more women who are attracted and aroused by men body ( arms, shoulders, chest, abs) than women who feel aroused by boobs.
Didn’t you read my post? Of course women find men’s body sexy.
But the level of arousal is nothing like what men experience looking at women because no part of the male body is fetishized and the male body as a whole has not been as sexualized by our culture as women’s bodies are.
Why is Playgirl constantly going bankrupt if women get so aroused by men’s bodies? I think it’s gone now.
The reason women are less visual in terms of finding men’s bodies arousing is that there’s less for them to get turned on by because men’s bodies have not been sexualized or fetishized.
The breast fetish is not natural. It’s a social construction. And men’s bodies have not been socially constructed in a similar way.
Have you read these?
Men Aren’t Hard Wired To Find Breasts Attractive
Women Learn the Breast Fetish, Too
Women Seeing Women as Sexier than Men
Men Know My Sexuality Better Than Me
Men: Erotic Objects of Women’s Gaze
Do Women See Sexy Men As Sexy?
dont you understand my post? i dindnt said women experience arousal at the same level as men when looking at opposite sex body, but I said womem definetely get more aroused seeing men bodies than boobs ( and yes, I have read all your links even before i post my first comment, and those studies are not free of errors and biasses). Why playgirl going bankcrupt? Its because men in playgirl are not what women like, but what gay men like. Playgirl models are huge, muscular, ripped, hairless. Its proven womem prefer men with more toned and slender but not too muscular/ripped and little bit hairy. An their clothes and poses are too feminime. If playgirl uses more guys with women usually prefer not gay men like, I bet more womem
would buy playgirl. And you cant use playgirl as an example beause playgirl is adult magazine. In this society, can you imagine a woman going to store and buy playgirl? Its too shameful and embarassing for them, even if they are the minority of women
who prefer muscular ripped hairless guys. The prove of my statement is internet culture. With freeporn on internet, now more and more women watch porn, because now they dont have to go to store to buy it. Dotn believe me? Search “James Deen” . he is male pornstar who have many many many fan girls. And you can search many tumblr sites created by women about porn, most of them full of men naked bodies ( but different from playgirl shots, these are more what women prefer ). And you can also search tumblr about japanese gay video ( keyword jgv tumblr ) I mentioned before. and yes, those tumblrs are full of men bodies, our chest, shoulders, arms, abs, butts, legs. Yes, internet prove that many women aroused by men bodies far more than they aroused by boobs. if you dont believe it, you can search james den and all tumblr pon created by women.
Maybe you don’t want to believe that women learn to see women’s bodies as sexier because of the way women are conditioned by a media that constantly sexualizes women’s bodies and ignores men’s. And maybe that’s because you don’t want to see men’s bodies sexualized the way women’s are now.
And the men of Playgirl weren’t big, buffed guys.
But there is a lot of evidence that that is exactly what happens:
. Women looking at women’s bodies instead of men’s while watching porn
. Women’s bodies getting more aroused by looking at a woman’s body than a man’s body
. My women students explaining to me why it is that women’s bodies are more objectified – “because they are just sexier”
. I put my post on “women’s learn the breast fetish too” on StumbleUpon and it got a 97% “like rating.” So an awful lot of women must agree.
But if it’s important to you to believe the opposite, fine. Not important to me that you change your mind.
“But there is a lot of evidence that that is exactly what happens:
. Women looking at women’s bodies instead of men’s while watching porn
. Women’s bodies getting more aroused by looking at a woman’s body than a man’s body
. My women students explaining to me why it is that women’s bodies are more objectified – “because they are just sexier”
. I put my post on “women’s learn the breast fetish too” on StumbleUpon and it got a 97% “like rating.” So an awful lot of women must agree.”
All these arent evidence. If you google it, there are many other studies which contradict with those studies you give. So its not really an evidences or proof. There are many women who look at men bodies instead of women bodies in porn. There are many women getting more aroused by looking at men bodies than women bodies. Just because it got 97% rating doesnt mean there are more women get aroused by women bodies than women who get aroused more by men bodies. I dont understand how it is evidence that women are more aroused looking at boobs than men chest, shoulders, arms.
And how about the example I give you, about tumblr porn. Tumblr porn /internet porn is more suitable for example instead of physical porn like dvds and magazine. Again, playgirl and physical porn arent popular because most women would get embarassed buying playgirl and adult dvd’s in store alone. In thise era of free internet porn, 1 in 3 porn watchers are women. You cant use playgirl as an example of women dont aroused by men bodies. And yes, men in playgirl are simply not what many women prefer. Yes, they are not too muscular, but they are too polished, ripped, and hairless. Its not what many women prefer.
And how about women who love watching gay male porn? There are really really many of them. How about James Deen, male pornstars who are very popular among young girls?
http://metro.co.uk/2008/10/14/women-who-like-to-watch-gay-porn-30888/
http://www.salon.com/2011/10/14/i_love_gay_male_porn/
http://blogs.sfweekly.com/exhibitionist/2011/07/some_women_love_gay_male_porn.php
there are many evidences in internet that women get aroused by men bodies more than women bodies.
But its okay if you dont want to believe it. Its okay if you dont want to accept my argument. Its okay if you want to label everyone who isnt agree with you as delusional, ignoratnt, and troll. I will leave this blog gladly if you want to.
Sorry If I offend you, I just want to give another argument and perspective. As a straight men, I believe most women attracted and aroused by men. Not only our personalities. I believe women also attracted and aroused by men chest, shoulders, abs, butts, legs. And yes I found many evidences, whether from women made blog like tumblr, internet porn watchers. my friends. etc.
What are all the studies that contradict what I say?
The links you provided show what a woman here or there likes gay male porn. There have been women who comment on my blog saying that they get turned on by beefcake, too, so I’m not saying that it’s impossible. But it doesn’t seem to be typical.
The studies I cite are of a broader swath of women. Not women here or there who think they might be weird because they like gay male porn.
There is always a bell curve to these things. You’re talking about women at the edges whereas I’m talking about what more commonly happens.
What do you make of the fact that one study that looked at what women SAID they wanted and how their bodies responded and found contradictions in the two? Women SAID that they found men’s bodies more attractive but their genitals said otherwise. And they actually looked at women’s bodies more when they wore glasses that tracked eye movement.
It’s true that some women seem to get aroused by men’s bodies, hence the tumbler porn. But they seem to be more the exception than the rule. If it was so popular someone would be making a ton of money off of this.
The number of women reported to watch porn isn’t necessarily accurate. A lot of porn providers say that men sometimes use their wives or mothers credit cards and names, for instance. Some women watch it to know what their boyfriends are going to want in bed. When a neuroscientist (Ogi Ogas) did research on what women and men search for on the Internet he found that 9/10 porn searches were instigated by men.
The fact is, human beings are affected by the images that they are bombarded by. All of us are bombarded by “women as sexual” images. And very few images of sexy men are out there. All of us are bombarded by women’s body parts as fetishized. No part of the male body has been fetishized.
That has an effect. If you would like to see women enjoying men’s bodies, you should hope that our society changes so that men are portrayed as more sexually desirable than they are today.
“The links you provided show what a woman here or there likes gay male porn. There have been women who comment on my blog saying that they get turned on by beefcake, too, so I’m not saying that it’s impossible. But it doesn’t seem to be typical.
The studies I cite are of a broader swath of women. Not women here or there who think they might be weird because they like gay male porn.
There is always a bell curve to these things. You’re talking about women at the edges whereas I’m talking about what more commonly happens.”
No, you talk about what you belief as a common and other experiences as a bell curves. You dont know everything. How do you know that women who are aroused by men arent majority? Studies about human are very different compare to physical and chemical studies. The errors and biased are very very very high.
“What do you make of the fact that one study that looked at what women SAID they wanted and how their bodies responded and found contradictions in the two? Women SAID that they found men’s bodies more attractive but their genitals said otherwise. And they actually looked at women’s bodies more when they wore glasses that tracked eye movement.”
As I said before, those studies arent fact and not convincing. And I found them biased.
“It’s true that some women seem to get aroused by men’s bodies, hence the tumbler porn. But they seem to be more the exception than the rule. If it was so popular someone would be making a ton of money off of this.”
Because women sexually used to be oppressed, and only in modern times like this they are acknowledge. Thats why there arent many porn for women. Because they arent made yet. If women dont like porn, how come James Deen is so famous among women? Women dont watch porn as many as men is because simply there arent enough porn catering for women, not because women arent aroused by men bodies.
“The number of women reported to watch porn isn’t necessarily accurate. A lot of porn providers say that men sometimes use their wives or mothers credit cards and names, for instance. Some women watch it to know what their boyfriends are going to want in bed. When a neuroscientist (Ogi Ogas) did research on what women and men search for on the Internet he found that 9/10 porn searches were instigated by men.”
And how many women use their husbands credit card and names? How many women watch it for themselves alone when their boyfriends arent there and how many women dont tell anybody about this? A LOT. REALLY A LOT. And no, research state 1 in 3 porn viewers are women.
“The fact is, human beings are affected by the images that they are bombarded by. All of us are bombarded by “women as sexual” images. And very few images of sexy men are out there. All of us are bombarded by women’s body parts as fetishized. No part of the male body has been fetishized.”
The fact is, women are aroused and attracted by men bodies, whether women bodies is fetishized and bombarded or not.
“That has an effect. If you would like to see women enjoying men’s bodies, you should hope that our society changes so that men are portrayed as more sexually desirable than they are today”
I would like it, but it already happen. Tumblr porn, gay porn, yaoi, etc etc, are the evidences. Including all women who state this fact and you call them minorities and bell curves. Including my girlfriends. I know they arent minority.
“you talk about what you belief as a common and other experiences as a bell curves. You dont know everything. How do you know that women who are aroused by men arent majority?”
What I talk about are women who were studied in University surveys as opposed to a woman here or there who says that she likes gay porn. Or, your girlfriends who are certainly going to tell you they find you/guys more attractive. Women told researchers they found men more attractive. But their body said something different.
And of course women are capable of finding male bodies sexually attractive and alluring. But in our society they are taught not do so to the extent that men are encouraged to see women’s bodies of sexual and alluring. That has effects.
I totally agree with you.
But you have to understand: they just obsess that much over these pretty boys because women are very conditioned to value men’s whole individuality and life. Not that it is a bad thing, in fact, that is mostly good. But then again, it can go to extremes, where the girls like their “idols” more than themselves and focus too much on the man, and not on themselves. You can see how many go blind even when their “idols” are jerks. Many girls/women will also stay with their abusive bfs/husbands – see the pattern?
Boys/men will not obsess like that over women because boys/men are conditioned to see women as separated pieces, sometimes the personality and individual being the less important. That is good because they can be more focused on themselves, but that can also become toxic – guys that objectify women and believe they exist to their pleasure.
Oh, and most women that are turned on by men’s bodies and gay porn, that will ADMIT TO IT, are the younger generation. Like, less than 25 year olds. In fact, that is somewhat difficult to find girls nowadays that do not get turned on by male-on-male action and do not ogle men’s bodies. A lot.
“It is somewhat difficult to find girls nowadays that do not get turned on by male-on-male action and do not ogle men’s bodies.”
And how do you know this? There is nothing in the culture that would create this situation and I have seen no evidence of it — quite the opposite, in fact. But if you have some evidence, please share.
Once it was against the law for a man to appeared chest naked in public.
If women get to be allowed to appeared breast naked in public the same way men can do that now, would that be a (major) step in dissolving the breast fetish?
Most likely.
The breast fetish diminished in Europe when topless beaches and toplessness in billboards and advertising, generally, came along. That was the early 80s. European women are much less likely to go topless at the beach these days unless they’re older. Most of the young topless women you see on European beaches these days are Americans, I’ve heard.
Well I think a woman’s sexuality is more mental than men’s. There is a lot of mental part to men’s, but It seems more of a woman’s arousal seems to be based on how she “feels” about a man or something. And this is why, I think women are affected or more affected than men by men with their responses. Yes the sexualization has added more of the fuel for men’s reactions to women’s bodies. But ontheotherhand, the sexualizing of women’;s bodies has affected women in the sense of being responsive more to women’s bodies, because I think women being more mental and their sexuality is more vain and how they feel or related to being desired rather than desiring. Which is why, images of sexy women in ads affect women, because they internalize this and see the desire from men these sexual, seductive images create so they become more response to these images or for some more so to women than men. But men being more direct and less reactive. I mean of course a big turn on for men is being desired to by a beautiful woman, but the important is still do the woman and her body. That is why guy’s are less swayed but things. The reason why I believe as stated times before, why gay dudes aren’t affected by sexual images of women, and their arousal and responses, still respond to men and not women. It’s because they are so visuall charged to guys like straight men to women, therefore, it doesn’t distract their lock down arousal, focus on the sex they’re attracted to. Woman’s sexuality which is bioligical, I believe is set or more apt to be affected by this supposed conditoning, so therefore it’s the biological part. And the biological reason why men are less affected as far as being swayed to one sex in their response over another. Yes men are swayed, but only more so or only further more attraction to the sex they’re attracted to.
I just think the order of events happened in reverse.
I think that the way women do sexuality in some ways is the more natural way since tribal men don’t experience fetishes either. Men in our culture have learned something that “natural man” (and I do mean “man”) has not as women’s breasts and butts become fetishized by selectively covering and hiding and obsessed over and focused on. The fact that it goes away with a man’s partner shows how it’s not natural.
But women’s experiences also different from what’s natural because they’re more repressed than men are. Women face all of the repressive forces that men do, plus things like slut shaming.
I probably won’t continue to approve these comments of yours on this topic because we keep saying the same things over and over again and it’s boring and it takes a lot of my time when I have a lot of other things I need to do.
Could you define “visual”? Is it about everything or comfortably only about sex? Also where is the prove that it is biological? Would you say that women don’t care about men’s appearance, because they don’t like sex that much? Because actually women care about it a little less than men. Sex is physical, so even if women like men because of other things, they should desire them physically. Haven’t you thought that repressing woman’s sexuality has led her not to like sex that much?
Being aroused by images of women is visual. Not to mention that they are strange women for strange men, who have absolutely nothing to do with ordinary women.
Yes men aren’t obsessd with boobs, when they are in a relationshiop for a while. But guys are still highly aroused by their girlfriends boobs and butt, especially when their gfs are going out with them somewhere and they are wearing something sexy or with cleavage. And you stating how women need more than seeing man parts to get aroused shows what I stated how women are less visual than men are. Women seem more reactive with their sexuality which is why boobs symbalizing sex from a nude female can turn her on, because it can bring on something how she feels, whereas, a nude man doiesn’t do it, because that would be direct desire for his body, which as you said women need more than body parts to turn them on generally. And you bring up how sexualizing women is not a good think and makes women feel bad about their bodies. I understand its not good and how it can in the sense as they might feel that can’t stack up to the sexy models bodies in ads, etc. But in a sense, I don’t get why women are self conscious about that. I know its because beauty is more important to men than it is for women toward men. But men do appreciate women’s personalities, its just that men’s sexuality is so physically driven. Maybe fat women this makes sense for, but for women who are thick, not skinny, but have curves, average size etc, a ton of men love the various shapes and sizes of women’s bodies. There are even a decent number of guys who prefer the bigger girls, the bbws. Women get self conscious because they won’t ge tthe attention of all the guys, but then being that hot, they wou;dn’t like all that unwanted attention from guys nor want to have sex with all these guys. So whats the big deal about some imperfections or to be self conscious about? Sounds more like wanting the ego stroked.
I don’t disagree with you on the patterns you’re talking about. The difference is that you think the patterns are biologically-based whereas I suspect that socialization is more important.
a quick quote:
“breast and butt fetishes tend to disappear with regard to her. But he still finds her sexy and attractive. He still wants her.”
“And, keep in mind that in tribal societies women’s body parts aren’t objectified, so they aren’t arousing. Yet tribal men are still sexually drawn to women.”
so whats the point of turning men into sexual object?. Fix this problem with women is a better idea.
After all you write about how bad is being a woman that always is sexy, also already have enough problems trying to be a normal guy to be now a sexy guy.
I don’t believe in turning men into sex objects. That’s why I wrote this paragraph: I’d like to see men portrayed as sexy more often. I’d like to see women portrayed as more-than-sexy, more often. And I’d like to see “sexy” more broadly drawn.
Being sexy and being a sex object are two different things. Sexy includes the whole, multidimensional person.
Sex object means you’re all about sex and nothing else.
See this post:
Anything Good About Being A Sex Object?
If you’d like more clarification, consider this:
Men and women are both sexual creatures so I think it’s ridiculous to try to shove our sexuality under the carpet.
Instead, rather than thinking only of women as “sexy” and men as not, I think it would be helpful if we recognized the sexiness in men – without going overboard. At the same time, recognize the multidimensionality of women, while recognizing that sexuality is one part of who women are.
Also, I would like us to broaden our notions of what is sexy so that we don’t have men combining steroid use and starvation to try to get an idealized look. And so that women don’t starve themselves and get implants for their idealized look. Neither of which exists in nature. Both of which are dangerous.
as a guy i really enjoy dont being a “sexual object” or seen in a “sexy-way” on anything sex-related, but i respect if someone want that. But wanting others attraction to feel important, good or loved is dangerous IMO.
Interesting article. But shouldn’t the main focus be then on how can we can change the way the media portrays both men and women. On a side note…I still feel pretty dam sexy ;). …which is why I’m a top cam model! 😉
I’m glad you feel sexy.
And yes, I think that we should focus on how the media portrays both men and women. I’ve written about that a lot. And I mention it again in this posting this paragraph:
I’d like to see men portrayed as sexy more often. I’d like to see women portrayed as more-than-sexy, more often. And I’d like to see “sexy” more broadly drawn.
Men should be careful about what they wish for. “Sexy” isn’t exactly how many women feel when they are constantly subjected to catcalls, lewd comments, and comparisons to other women’s bodies.
Yes. I plan to write a post on that too.
I don’t think that if males would be objectified and get catcalled by women the same way that women are by men, that would be so terrible as it is for women.
If a pretty woman get approached by a stranger or catcalled she could feel threatened.
Men are on average, bigger and stronger.
But if a woman catcalled a man or she approached him, would the man have a reason to feel threatened?
The same would apply for objectifing men. If men were treated as sex objects would they be worried that women would try to “hit on” them? what’s the “worst” they could possible do to man?
I can understand feeling fearful when being cat-called. But I have never felt threatened by that. Instead, I get annoyed by men acting like women exist as objects for their pleasure.
Here’s more on the problems of objectification:
Anything Good About Being A Sex Object?
Since you mentioned me by name, I have to clear it up. My intetion of what I posted wasn’t a personal “bitter” post against women.
It may sound that I am full of myself but it’s not true – still it’s better to accuse me of being full of myself than being one of the ‘men who hate pretty women’
I do get a lot of attention from women and I can confirm that women ogle at men too. – I was lucky enough to get good genes from my parents, that’s nothing to brag, it was luck.
So this thing that women don’t find men as sexy as women, even though I always have suspect it, it kind of came as a shock to learn that it was so “established”. I don’t have a problem getting attention from women so I never thought of that untill recently when I started reading about the researches and the surveys.
So when I post something, I always avoid taking it to a personal level. I try to look at the big picture.
The fact that women have learned that women are sexier than men works against women and men, except the top good looking men (i am not one of them), they are probably the only ones who may get benefit from this situation. Women don’t learn to appreciate the looks of average looking men but when it comes a really good looking man, everything changes, they are believed that they are so rare because women don’t look at average looking men.
I think that men don’t want women to learn to value men on their looks at all. Because that would change anything in the dating dynamics. A man, no matter how he looks, he should always have the right to date a hot woman, right? isn’t that all men have learned that they deserve?
The elusive good-looking man
http://blog.joycemanalo.com/2011/men-callin-goodlooking-men-gay/
When I read what you wrote I didn’t think you sounded especially bitter. Maybe the last sentence reads that way. More like confused and possibly hurt. Mostly your comments come across as seeking understanding. But what you wrote was similar to what a lot of guys write to me on this topic.
I agree that it works against both women and men. Hence, my posts. I’d like to see things change. But not reverse. I’d like to see a greater appreciation for both men’s and women’s bodies, I would like to see a broadening of what’s considered attractive. But I do not want to see either women or men objectified and portrayed one-dimensionally. As A.M.B. wrote, “be careful what you wish for.” So I will write another post on that.
On not appreciating the average person’s looks, women tend to feel the same way. That’s why I want to broaden our notions of what sexy. And, both women and men exaggerate the problem in their own minds and end up feeling like people find them less attractive than they do.
And then there are people like the link you sent. On the one hand I can see her point in that women are designated “the sexy sex” so much that they can come to be seen that way, culturally. Plus, women get way more help with make up, hair and clothing options.
On the other hand, I see guys all the time who I find attractive and sexy – yes, regular guys.
what’s really bothering me is that we suppossedly have equality. Women can do anything men can do. But when it comes to dating, all women – even feminists- believe that it is the man’s role to approach the woman.
It’s like that women demand from men to do all the “work” in the dating and that only men should take the risk of rejection.
Why not try the other way around once for a change?
Why should we keep the stereotypes of gender roles when it comes to dating.
Women’s equilevant of “first move” is looking at someone, smiling, walking and standing close by, and the bold women may even say “hi”. But pretty much that’s it. Then they expect from men to take the lead.
Another thing is that women never make compliments on men’s looks.
They can make a compliment about his clothes or hair or an achievement but they would never say to a man they are interested “you are beautiful” or something like that.
Their excuse is that they don’t want to boost his ego.
Men (and women) on the other hand make compliments on women’s looks every day.
Even the most good looking man would never get a date if he doesn’t approach a woman and ask her out.
So, should we keep the stereotypes of gender roles in dating?
Male/female sexual relationships seem to be the most resistant to equality.
I suspect it’s because when you reverse things it makes women seem like they are the leader and guys are more passive. And I think that that makes many uncomfortable because we haven’t achieved truly equality.
Asking someone to have a date is really hard, taking the risk and facing a lot of NO require a lost of self stem. This is why IMO women dont are interested in change the rules of dating, and probably never do, and if i was a women, neither.
Imagine, no more free drinks in bars, no more free chocolates in valentine, women(femnist) are not stupid.
I know from experience with “Sadie Hawkins dances” that it is difficult to ask someone out. But I suspect the primary pressure that keeps women from asking them out is a reversal of roles. Women feel uncomfortable taking the lead and making him the passive one. They also worry about appearing too aggressive. Most don’t truly feel like they have an option now. If they did, maybe your point would kick in to some degree.
“I think that men don’t want women to learn to value men on their looks at all. Because that would change anything in the dating dynamics. A man, no matter how he looks, he should always have the right to date a hot woman, right? isn’t that all men have learned that they deserve?”
That is so true, Potis! I see how many men want to believe that women will never look at their appearance and get sometimes even angry when women admit they do!
Also, I believe you are wrong – women do like the average man. Just like men like the average women. The difference is that the average women will try her best to look pretty – makeup, shave her body, sexy and revealing clothes, beautiful hair. The average man, on the contrary, is too scared to put more effort into his looks.
That is why usually only the top 10% of men get attention – because they are just hot by nature. While average women, who are not that hot by nature (just like the average man), will still be a lot more vain – and that is attractive and makes them more attractive!
I think men are generally more comfortable with their sexiness when with their partners. Otherwise, there’s a ‘creep’ factor inhibits men from being/feeling ‘sexy’ around women.
Maybe the creep factor comes from women being more designated “the sexy ones.” So feeling sexy could make men feel feminine, or womanly and that could creep them out.
And as I wrote in an earlier post, we are all so used to thinking of women is the sexy sex that when men appear sexy they can appear gay. Not always, it depends, as I wrote here:
Do Women See Sexy Men As Sexy?
The ‘creep’ factor I mentioned isn’t about feeling feminine or gay. I meant how men feel dissuaded from behaving ‘sexy’ because it may be seen as creepy. Basically, a guy can only get away with overt sexuality when a woman likes him. Otherwise, he’s just acting creepy.
Oh yeah, I see your point.
I personally find the male body to be incredibly arousing. Society may not create fetishes towards male body parts, but I sure do! 😉
Seriously though, I love the look of a man’s penis, and enjoy watching porn or reading Playgirl simply because not many other venues have fully naked men. It doesn’t even matter if the penis is erect or flaccid, circumcised or not…all healthy penises are extremely attractive to me.
Next, I tend to look at a man’s buttocks…then his chest/nipples…then, for whatever reason, his ears. Strangely, I find “bigger” guys far more of a turn on, so I’m not very attracted to a muscular or sculpted chest. It just kinda reminds me of a Ken doll, and who would ever want a plastic guy?
There do seem to be some women to do. After all, Playgirl did have a few female readers. There is always a bell curve on these things.
I also wonder if the reason Playgirl did so poorly was due to the fact that women (in general) are not “supposed” to be as sexually stimulated or needy as men are. Perhaps there were many women who WANTED to buy these magazines, but were too ashamed to do so?
You could have a point. Here’s some research on women’s reactions to male nudity. Some found the images sexy and attractive and others felt uncomfortable even looking at them.
Men, Women React to Male/Female Nudity
But culturally we haven’t fetishized any part of the male body. That’s very different from women.
And we don’t sexualize the male body in the same way. You almost never see a camera following around a man’s (anything), for instance.
Very true. I remember being so surprised (in a good way) when I recently watched “Kinsey” and there was a scene with an unabashedly naked male body, followed by male kissing. Given that it wasn’t horribly written like most porn and actually had context, I found it to be exciting and somewhat romantic.
One of the things I’ve noticed is that I used to feel badly about my love of the male body. From the media, to health class, talks in the locker room, and even conversations with my female relatives…it has been made abundantly clear to me that it’s “wrong” for me to want to see what I find arousing.
For example, we watched “The Full Monty” in my college Human Sexuality course, and I remember how many glares I got from the women for commenting that I felt gypped by not being able to see the frontal male nudity. The boys all clapped though, so I guess that makes up for it…
I just find it sad that our culture is so keen to portray acts of violence and harm, but gets tight-lipped about sex.
Btw, I recently wrote a post about having multiple sexual partners, and would love to know your take on it, if you have the time.
I’ll check it out.
Why don’t you send a link?
Here you go. Thanks! http://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2013/08/03/multiple-partners-yay-or-nay/
Thank you. Maybe others have ideas to add to yours on why men worry about women’s “numbers.”