Why Do Betas Push Theory That Insults Them?

Alpha or Beta?

By Catfish and Georgia

Some guys who call themselves “betas” (gentler, less macho men) complain that women want dominating “alphas,” not them.*

These betas insist that evolution controls the phenomenon: Alphas just have better genes. Sob.

Yet a University of Tennessee study published by PNAS found that most women prefer more generous and reliable “betas.” I know I do.

I’ve wondered why some “betas” push a theory that puts them down and leaves them no hope?

In a prior post I suggested a few ideas like, “Does giving up remove a burden — nothing can be done so why try?”

Catfish, one of my readers, suggested a few of his own theories, which I found interesting:

  • It is simple
  • It sounds “sciency” and plausible
  • It appears that there are many other guys around in the same boat, which confirms the theory even more

But it is likely that in reality each self-identified beta has a combination of issues that prevents them from successfully dating, like:

  • Untreated depression
  • Social anxiety
  • Any kind of psychological trauma from the past, ranging from being bullied to being rejected by women in the early adult years due to crappy luck (it does happen)
  • Habits/beliefs that they inherited from their parent(s) that set them back. For example, some men on the past looked down on personal grooming and attempts to dress stylishly because it was not “masculine”. If their sons inherited this habit then guess what happens
  • Messed up sexuality
  • Poor social skills
  • Challenging economic background of their families
  • Whatever you can imagine

Of course it is easier to believe in a simple theory than to accept and deal with all those problems.

Thoughts anyone?

_________

* It turns out that the original “alpha vs beta” theory is based on a faulty study. Researcher L. David Mech points out that the alpha and beta wolves being studied were not all adults. Those originally labeled “alpha” wolves actually turned out to be parents to “beta” pups. So of course the parents were dominant and the pups more docile. Adults are also much better at finding mates, pups… that’s not their thing yet.

Related Posts
Women Want Betas
Guys Are Getting More Romantic
It’s Not Easy Being A Man

About BroadBlogs

I have a Ph.D. from UCLA in sociology (emphasis: gender, social psych). I currently teach sociology and women's studies at Foothill College in Los Altos Hills, CA. I have also lectured at San Jose State. And I have blogged for Feminispire, Ms. Magazine, The Good Men Project and Daily Kos. Also been picked up by The Alternet.

Posted on June 10, 2019, in men, psychology and tagged , , . Bookmark the permalink. 108 Comments.

  1. People need to be aware of natural alphas (fit, good looking, dominant men) as opposed to artificial alphas (rich or powerful men who wouldn’t naturally get to mate). Natural alphas activate a woman’s lizard brain which causes her to fully enjoy her experience with him. Her body wants it so bad that even if a beta or artificial alpha has her attention she will get rid of them quickly when a natural alpha enters the room. Women only tolerate artificial alphas because they have something she wants like money or access to power. Her lizard brain is repulsed by him which makes the overall experience bad and the sex horrible.

    • You should take a look at romantic comedies. Women watch them over and over again. Not seeing a lot of alphas in there: Sleepless in Seattle, When Harry Met Sally, my big fat Greek wedding, Knotting Hill…

  2. One more thing: it gives a clear ideal to strive for. I guess one of the reasons these theories exist is helping “beta” men to get out of their situation. A lot of men are completely lost in their lives and have no idea how to fix themselves. For most of them there is no guiding hand to help. Men rule the world, so they don’t need any help, right? So this alpha-beta male theory can be seen as an attempt to create such guidance.

    BTW, recently Guardian created a very interesting series on modern masculinity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfPKMurs-OY

    • I like how you get to the root problem which would create healthier and happier men if these issues were addressed:

      Untreated depression
      Social anxiety
      Any kind of psychological trauma from the past, ranging from being bullied to being rejected by women in the early adult years due to crappy luck (it does happen)
      Habits/beliefs that they inherited from their parent(s) that set them back. For example, some men on the past looked down on personal grooming and attempts to dress stylishly because it was not “masculine”. If their sons inherited this habit then guess what happens
      Messed up sexuality
      Poor social skills

      But, depending on how it’s defined I don’t think “alpha” is the best role model. And it seems like these guys just give up: I’m not an alpha.

      I think the video is well worth watching.

  3. “Your example actually doesn’t make sense because women don’t prefer big cocks. Despite what porn suggests. In fact, one study in Africa found that women married to men with large cocks were more likely to cheat, and the reason was because sex less likely to hurt. So in a way a preference for smaller cocks is not learned it’s a matter of less pain.

    But give me an example of something that I claim is learned that you say is not.”

    I already gave you an example: Why women like tall men. Why women like men with money and status is another example.

    When you assert that such behavior is learned by women, you are in effect denying that women have the mental faculties to merely express their preferences. You are invalidating their choices.

    So, you have to go to Africa to find a study to attempt to rebutt my assertion that women prefer cocks that are larger than average? Well, I don’t know about Africa, but women here in America are far more likely to cheat on their husbands or any other man if he is just average in the cock department. I have had women say this to me. I have asked several women about this issue. Over 90% stated the “ideal” cock for them was around 8 inches and with girth. Oh I guess that is learned behavior not preference?

    Lastly, my apology for being offensive. But, I am not sure just what I said was offensive. Whatever.

    • When I have brought up the topic in class some of my non-African students have made a similar comment.

      There is a cultural preference for tall man but that doesn’t mean every woman prefers Tallman. I have more than one short male friends who have tall wives And I have been attracted to both the short and tall men.

  4. For all the railing against the old world, ways, and the supposed advances of modernism, supposed feminism, liberation defined by the smallest possible group, thereby being subjugated the most by everyone else, supposedly, etc., no one seems the slightest interested in the fact that their liberation socialist, psychologic duality based philosophies, if you could call them that, are also the extinction in a can.

    • First, people in gender equal societies have not gone extinct. And you can find gender equal societies among the forgers on every continent.

      Second, I don’t approve comments unless I read them and yours was pretty long and arduous so I posted the part I read. See my comment policy:

      https://broadblogs.com/comment-policy/

      • Complete censorship of my comment when you post 1/20 th of it because you disagree with it; totalitarianism isn’t feminism.

      • It wasn’t censorship. I won’t post anything that I won’t read. And I won’t read long, arduous posts. Or too many posts even if they’re shorter.

        Actually, writing long, arduous posts is self-censorship because no one will wade through all that.

        If you care to make your point using fewer words and simpler language I’ll read it (so long as it’s not insulting). If you read through comments you will see that I do post comments that disagree with me.

  5. While a discussion about the rise of beta male identity must touch on the perception of gentleness and hopelessness, I feel like this discussion is missing an deeper analysis of how these self-described beta males interact with masculinity. The first sentence of this post mentions how beta men are less macho than their alpha men counterparts. Assuming we buy into this inherently ethnocentric/western and binary depiction of masculinity, beta males are still recipients of patriarchal dividends and benefit from structures of sexism. In my opinion, it sounds like these beta men are jealous and bitter. This jealousy seems to comes from not being “competitive” to get women.However, I believe that the root of this bitterness comes from not receiving the women that these beta men believe that they deserve. Beta men and incel (involuntary celibate) narratives are built on the commodification of women’s bodies as well as entitlement (both sexist and heterosexist).

    The author wonders why these beta men “push a theory that puts them down and leaves them no hope?” I believe that its rooted in sexism. Painting oneself as a victim who can’t get a woman paints the picture of a struggle that doesn’t necessarily exist. Through festering about how beta men suffer from not being macho, beta men have managed to elude their participation in sexism and the patriarchy while still reinforcing patriarchal narratives. To continue the discussion of beta men with questions framed by beta men is to continue normalizing their entitlement to the women’s bodies they commodify.

    • Well we must be able to discuss things, even if the patriarchy brings them up.

      But if you think that discussing this strengthens the patriarchy (and I’m still not clear on your reasoning of how it would do so) I guess you shouldn’t have added to the conversation. I actually think that not discussing these things emboldens the patriarchy. Then they are the only ones who have a say and no other ideas can counter them.

      • No, you’re right and I worry that I didn’t word my thoughts effectively. I’ll try once more.

        Yes, we must discuss things that the patriarchy brings up. However, we must consider whether we are entertaining or critically confronting their assumptions.

        Beta men speak of how frustrated they are with not being able to “get” a woman, unlike their alpha men counterparts. Your post offers possible reasons why beta men can’t get women. While it is an interesting post, it doesn’t confront the fact that these beta men aren’t entitled to women’s bodies to being with.

        I believe that the “beta male” identity functions as a smokescreen to mask their sexist entitlement to women’s bodies. After all, does the construction of the beta male identity serve women? To me, the frustration of beta men echoes sentiments like “why don’t I get women like the alpha males? I am a man and I deserve women too!” To assume men deserve women’s bodies is both sexist and heterosexist. We’re caught up discussing the alleged deficiency of beta men instead asking why they believe they are entitled to women in the first place.

        I was hoping that your post would offer a more critical response confronting their misogynistic entitlement in the first place. Omitting such a response can be read as complicity supporting their entitlement to women’s bodies.

      • The point of this post was not to discuss why so-called “beta” men can’t get women. It was to discuss why they are drawn to a theory that insults them. That is a different frame than the one that they use, by the way. And I don’t see how discussing why so-called beta men are drawn to a theory that insults them helps patriarchy.

  6. I believe someone is not completely a “beta” or an “alpha”. People tend to put themselves or other people under one term, however a person can be either on a given day or situation. Some people act more alpha when they are intoxicated, around friends they are trying to impress, or around people they feel they need to change their personality for. In the same way people may act beta when they are uncomfortable for any reason. When around people they don’t know one may act much more alpha, or much more beta. Over time people can also change from a mostly beta person to a mostly alpha person, and vice-versa. I agree that people tend to give up and call themselves beta, which is not a good mindset. It is possible to be an alpha introvert sometimes and be a beta introvert others. I do not think classifying yourself as one or the other is a healthy way to think.

  7. I completely agree that the “beta” classification is accepted by people dealing with stress, problems, and personal struggles when it is truly not something that you are born into. I don’t think that you are born either an “alpha” or a “beta”. I think a lot that these classifications have to do with is your unique upbringing and societal stereotypes. Those who fall under the “alpha” category display stereotypical characteristics of masculinity, being outgoing, not being afraid to pursue, and asserting dominance. I think that the only reason these identities have grown is because we have allowed for the alpha stereotype to grow while also allowing the alpha stereotype to dominate the image of “a guy a woman will go for” when in reality that is just not true. I just think its not necessary to flaunt your masculinity to win over a girl or to try and make yourself seem superior to those that choose to stay more reserved or are dealing with their own personal battles (and not worrying about what others think).

  8. Gabrielle Viera

    It feels as though some of these ideas have also stemmed from the media. Most of the times the guys who are forward and muscular and jock like always get the girl. The nerd or the beta shows up and usually just helps the girl find herself. And I think people may think that the more they self depreciate the more attention they will get or bring to the subject causing their status in the eyes of other people to rise. Beta or Alpha though woman and men both have preferences and it just reads into life game of trying to find the spot you fit in and to find your own spotlight. With that said I completely agree with the findings that this comes out of being rejected at an early age as well as depression. I wonder exactly how far people are willing to push this argument that there are only betas and alphas. 

    • Yeah, I don’t know if it’s true that there are betas or alphas, and the study that first coined the idea was faulty, but given what people mean by them as personality types, some people seem to fit more one than the other.

  9. One thing that I thought of while reading this was what an Alpha and a Beta look like to most people. The things that came to mind that surprised me were that people see Alphas as confident and Betas as cowards. This is definitely not the case. This is also one of the main reasons why there is such a negative connotation with being a Beta. Being confident has nothing to do with whether you come across as an Alpha or a Beta. Self confidence is just a good quality to have regardless of who you are. Most people prefer someone who knows how to be gentle and affectionate. I don’t think this makes you an Alpha or a Beta; it just makes you a good person. To me, the difference between being an Alpha or a Beta is whether you’re the loudest person at the party. Nothing more and nothing less.

  10. It does seem though that it’s always or often men who who have to work on their social skills and it’s put on them if they aren’t attracting women or something they aren’t doing right. Granted, many times guys are doing something wrong, whether it be too timid or then in the complete opposite way and be too aggressive or “thirsty” , etc. But women have just as much to fix themselves, but it’s never on women to work on their part because they don’t have to even if their social skills are quite lacking even though they may think they are hot stuff.

    • Gender roles create advantages and disadvantage is for each gender. What you are describing occurs because we put so much burden on men to pursue, but to do it in just the right way. And also because we punish and repress women’s sexuality, so that it takes quite a bit for women to be interested. I don’t really like gender roles.

  11. Answer me this: why do women like tall men? Surely because a tall is more dominant over the other males.

    • Because it’s learned. My sister-in-law just got back from Pompeii where the average person was short and tall men were forced to be gladiators – Which is quite a like being a prisoner.

      Why does our culture prefer tall women? Because we prefer dominant women? Actually, the preference for tall women didn’t take effect until we came to associate attractiveness with Fashion models on runways. And fashion models are tall because it’s easier to see the clothes on a runway with a tall person wearing them.

      • Oh boy, back to the “everything is learned” theory. Who teaches us this? I never had a school class teaching us tall men are better, I never saw a movie claiming that. In fact many top actors are very short. The only time I hear about it is when someone does a socialogical study about what women want, that this always tops the list. In fact, I wish I’d actually known this when I was in my 20s, because I’m 6″4, that would have been a confidence boost. But this is a secret women mostly keep in their heads.

        I don’t believe our culture cares less about tall women. You go ask some men their top 5 wish list for women, I don’t think being tall will make the cut. Culture does not revolve around fashion runways. I’ve never even been to a fashion runway, how can that be influencing me?

      • Cultural differences clue us in to what is learned. And that is one of the main things that sociologists study. I don’t know how much men care about women’s height but our cultural notion of female beauty is that taller is better. Most male movie stars are paired with tall women. Our culture values height in men — Taller men make more money, for instance — but Pompeii did not share that value, primarily using tall men for fighting entertainment.

      • “Cultural differences clue us in to what is learned.”

        No, cultural differences clue us into divergent evolution. Prove me wrong. Here’s your big chance.

        “Most male movie stars are paired with tall women”

        That’s only because you get a nice tight shot when both heads are in the frame. I bet Tom Cruise isn’t paired witha very tall woman.

        “but Pompeii did not share that value, primarily using tall men for fighting entertainment.”

        Gladiators were slaves, so that’s hardly a rational comparison. And it wouldn’t make sense throwing a small man to the lions as an equal fight. In any case, by slave standards, a gladiotor is prestigious.

      • Tall man in Pompeii were basically enslaved and forced to fight as gladiators.

        Here’s a cultural difference for you that clearly it is not evolutionary. American Indian women were not shamed for sexuality, nor pacific islanders, and you don’t find the Victorian pattern among them. But when Europeans came with Christianity and greater power their culture completely changed To a more Victorian mindset. We are now leaving the Victorian mindset and women sexuality has changed along with it. Culture changed, not a huge evolutionary shift.

        Or, do you really think that Scottish men once wore kilts (skirts) because of some evolutionary genetic trait that was unique to Scottish men – when they hardly ever wear them anymore, but do sometimes for cultural reasons?

        I could go on, and on, and on …

      • “Because it’s learned.”

        What?! That makes no sense to me.

        I guess women preferring men with bigger cocks as opposed to smaller cocks is learned behavior too?

      • Your example actually doesn’t make sense because women don’t prefer big cocks. Despite what porn suggests. In fact, one study in Africa found that women married to men with large cocks were more likely to cheat, and the reason was because sex less likely to hurt. So in a way a preference for smaller cocks is not learned it’s a matter of less pain.

        But give me an example of something that I claim is learned that you say is not.

        By the way you will notice that I edited your comment. Typically when someone is disrespectful I just don’t answer at all, but I decided to edit and respond here.

  12. handsomebrady6636

    I’m ONE HUNDRED PERCENT beta and am loved by the ladies !

  13. I think confidence makes someone attractive, and many who exude confidence do so out of arrogance or practice in portraying confidence, whereas many who lack confidence are simply more aware of life’s complexity.

    It makes arguing with people difficult, because the honest debater wants to be sure of the facts, and appears hesitant and uncertain, whereas the dishonest debater knows the trick is to keep the topic changing fast.

    What we all want is someone who has both confidence and honesty…

    • I agree. Confidence plus honesty is a great combination. And oddly enough I think one can fake it until they make it when it comes to confidence — simply because I think that all of us come imbued with the potential for high self-esteem. Children seem to have high self-esteem, unless they are abused, for instance.

  14. I agree with the author of the blog that social and mental health issues are contributing factors that prevent betas from successfully dating, like untreated depression and poor social skills. I believe there is a lot of pressure for men to look and behave like an alpha male in order to get a woman. However, this is not true like the study indicated and many women prefer non-egotistical men. In our society, men are not allowed to be “weak” and so the appropriate and necessary resources/support are not in place for men to get the help that they need. Moreover, there is competition amongst men themselves and toxic masculinity is a main contributing factor and sadly, betas get bullied or emasculated in front of other men like, “oh, why are you such a pussy?” Betas using the evolution theory is too simple and does not take into account the complexities that men face in modern society today.

  15. I think it is a way to justify their circumstances without it being their responsibility. The people that say this are often single, and they say this as a reason as to why they are single…not always but often. Now, if I assume what they are saying is right, women prefer alphas, then it isn’t my fault I’m single….I just got the biological short end of the stick. If women prefer betas, and I’m a beta AND I’m single…. that’s a whole can of worms. What’s wrong with me then, what am I doing wrong or not doing. Saying it’s the beta theory puts the onus outside ones self, and that’s safer for people in general, men and women.

    Also, Adam ruins everything did a piece about alphas and betas and that whole theory is based on a very bad study of wolves that was disproved later. Men, by in large, are not alphas or betas, but an expression of either one depending on the situation. So, the premise of that argument is also off.

  16. This read was very interesting because i have heard of this before amongst my friends and it is something that I have seen personally. I think that there are a couple things that go into this. One thing that I have noticed is these guys comparing themselves to other guys that might work out more and be more athletic which from the start might discourage someone because they do not think they are as good looking. with this lowered confidence these guys might also just be very nervous talking to people and not want to talk to them because they dont feel like they are enough so they use this beta theory to say that girls only want people who are alphas when in reality its just people that are approachable friendly and confident. in my case for a long time I was very nervous talking to people, I didn’t not know what people would think of me on a first impression so I would try to avoid meeting random people but when I went out I noticed that other guys that might be considered alphas did not have this issue and noticed that they would talk to a lot more people than I typically would.

  17. In fact, on Tinder women prefer the less attractive men because they think the more attractive men are likely to be selfish stuck up snobs. Certainly not necessarily true but a common belief. And men are much more likely to all want the most attractive women on OKCupid — but that’s not true of women.”

    I’m going to pretend that’s why I haven’t had any luck on tinder. Well not really on any, but some reason I’ve had more matches on bumble whereas not much on tinder. I can’t figure that one out. Same profile and pictures about so not much different. And I’m one that will of course swipe right on pretty, cute and hot women. But have and also swiped right on average looking women who seemed cool by their profile. I can’t do that for every woman, I have to find her somewhat attractive, but it’s not just like hot women that swipe where other guys may do that. But in saying that, seriously there;s a weird difference too. Yes there have been women I didn’t find attractive on bumble, but more often cute, pretty and some hot women matching with me. But never getting much from tinder, the women who would like me on it. Well “Buzz’s girlfriend” (home alone), she’s been and her gfs been making their way on tinder for whatever reason. I mean I’m glad being liked so it’s like conflicting, but man ha. I think I might’ve even reenacted it one time as in “Buzz’s gf, woof!” and then for some reason lightly slam my phone face down like Malcullaly Culkin put down the portrait of buzz’s girlfriend in the movie. So basicallly buzz’s girlfriend liking me on tinder, meanwhile I’ve been matched women looking like and pretty like “Bernadette’ from Big Bang Theory. So yep Buzz’s girlfriend be trying to get in my dms while, Bernadettes all over that bumble. If you can make sense of this contrast, let me know because I can’t make sense of it.

  18. I have to agree that more beta men agree with the idea that women prefer alpha males instead of betas, mainly because they do not accept their insecurities and jump to conclusions. When in the contrary more females prefer betas proven by a study. I believe that as a society we have learned to be the alpha male or in my Mexican culture a macho man. If and individual does not fit this description they already look down on themselves and feel inferior. But in reality there isn’t a difference, just personality traits are different and peoples ego. Most alpha males are super egotistical and rude individuals. That is not something women necessarily want or prefer in their lives. Overall betas do struggle with dating due to their social anxiety and shyness due to insecurities and lack of confidence. Lack of confidence is what brings betas to conclude the false theory of alphas being superior.

  19. But a lot of research has shown that women care much more about emotional connection in sex than men do. I don’t know that that is innate, Rather, we live in a culture that punishes women’s nonmonogamous sexual behavior. And actually both women and men prefer emotionally connected sex, but it’s easier for men to do it and come out unscathed – probably because women are more punished for the same behavior (as you indicate by suggesting that a promiscuous woman will try to act like she is monogamous even to a promiscuous man).”

    I don’t know if I believe huggy all the way. It’s anecdotal, but also this. Many women will not want to sleep with a guy if they want a relationship even if they are attracted to him and even if he’s upfront about wanting just sex. I feel it well send off “he’s just like every other guy signal and she will end talking to the guy. I think it’s why there are male players. I don’t think it’s right to do. It’s weird, I think even women who are open to casual sex. I think respect is stil important too. So I keep hearing “hook up culture”. and like young people in their early and mid 20s don’t date or something. And I’m thinking, well it depends on what you consider a date. If you go on tinder which many early 20s and mid 20s use now and meet up with the girl, well that’s a date. It doesn’t matter if it leads to sex that night. It seems like date often is attached to “set up for relationship” when it can be many things. It can be a way to know each other deeply to set up a relationship, friendship maybe, or to just have fun or out of boredom. It can be to see the person and go out somewhere even when the intentions are both casual. Guy’s may want to just talk and then have a girl netflix and chill. But I don’t believe that happens a ton even for women open to casual sex. And the reason is because I feel women want to feel respect even if they just want sex too.

    The way a hook up happens is like meeting a girl at a party and drinking and a guy is hot or charming and just a strong attraction and later that night a one night stand or making out or oral sex happens. Or at a club or bar. Like where there is good time where both know each other from the social situation. But most guys even the casanovas don’t get all or probably not even most of their sexual experience just from that. A lot is getting a girl’s number or giving her that you met whether in a classroom, at the mall, from friends, work or cold approached somewhere. That means the talking was not that long and so many minutes to where there was flirting and attracting. From there the girl or guy texts each other the next day. And even if it becomes flirty, usually it would back fire on the guy upon that if he asks the girl if she wants to come over for a movie after he’s only see her in person for a few minutes which they exchanged numbers. I haven’t done that and it’s because I don’t let my thrist take over and realize most women don’t want to feel like nothing but a fuck toy, even if they are up to sex. That;s why the same girl who declines a guy she’s talking to, his netflix and chill request, may go out for drinks with another guy who asks her to come out with his friends. And if upon meeting said guy out at party with said guy or bar or concert and the connection is hot who she is seeing in person and connecting with. She may later that night have sex with him and hook up. I feel even for casual sex, more often it’s the latter or just from meeting someone new at a party or someone you already been talkng to or seeing and they go out with you and it leads to sex. Rather than it happens that much with simply getting a girls number and talking and then she comes over to fuck just from texting after only having talked tot he guy in person a few minutes upon getting numbers. I think even promiscuous women prefer meeting up or a date like event with the guy first, face to face not as his home before anything sexual were to happen eve if she doesn’t want a relationship.

    • And hook up culture tends to be alcohol-filled, partly so the guys can work up the courage, and partly so the girls can tolerate it – or so I read from research in a New York Times piece.

      A lot of people feel pressure to hook up in college because they think that’s what you’re supposed to do. And yet on average one university survey found that while everyone believed everyone else was hooking up every weekend it turned out that by the end of college people had had only seven unique sex partners, which is much different from what hook up culture is supposedly about.

      • Well I’m saying exclude college out of it. This means for 20 something year olds whether it be in college or not in college or someone 24 is often out of college unless graduate studies. But that term isn’t just for college students but millennials in 20s or such. But like I said, that’s not true because that would mean the only sex guys are having would be from party hookups or bar one night stands. The reality is that it’s not a very good option for regular sex for even the hot Casanova’s. So it’s false. Guys who are casonovas and promiscuous May want all one night stands.

        The reality is most guys even ones doing well? Will not stick to just one option for getting laid. Which means they aren’t going to have parties or bars be their only option for sex. It’s a numbers game and it’s a slow rate of hoping for sex often at parties. It’s alcohol but often timing. It’s like meeting a girl who might’ve had hormones going strong to where she was horny of more so than usual. Like just perfect chemistry and timing that is fleeting. A girl can normally not be about fucking most often but the perfect storm of stuff and the guy meeting the girl who just happens to be at party with something prior to where she was horny and he happened to have a look that reminded her or someone really sexy to her, she has alcohol taking away her inhibitions. It’s more constant for guys, so it’s like you’re counting on a lot of things as a guy to have that happen. So that means a lot of the other sex has to either be from relationships even if short or fwb, but these often come not from a one night stand but getting each other’s number and then meeting out somewhere which may lead to sex.

        The Netflix and chill often comes from a fwb situation but that came from the guy and girl first going out of meeting out at a party with friends or wherever which lead to sex and then keeping in contact and coming over to hook up after that. Like how many girls even promiscuous ones will just come to a guys place who she only spoke face to face for a few minutes? And then just text or talking on the phone? Most still need to want to see him in person not at his place before having sex even if they want or are up to casual sex.

      • Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I can’t actually remember what the prior conversation was about though. From what I read about hook up culture women who are newer to campus are more likely to engage in it because I think it’s part of the college experience but tend to use alcohol to tolerate it. FWB is a little different situation Since hopefully you are at least friends and she trusts the guy. Well the one woman who had painful experiences with hook up culture described FWB as being without the friends part. And numerous studies have shown that women are much less likely than men to have sex with a random person they don’t know. They tend to need more emotional connection, maybe because of the way they are socialized. There is also more fear of male strangers.

    • @ Bob..

      “Many women will not want to sleep with a guy if they want a relationship even if they are attracted to him and even if he’s upfront about wanting just sex. ”

      This makes no sense to me, at all. So, just when WILL a woman want o sleep with a man? When she is NOT attracted to him or when she does NOT want a relationship? The only time a woman will sleep with man when she is NOT attracted to him is when that man is offering her something else in return (i.e., money, status, non sexual companionship, transactional sex etc.).

      • No It didn’t come out that, since many women want relationships even if they are open to sex. They as a result, women, don’t want to just come over to a guys house they hardly know. And a guy being upfront about wanting sex with a woman whom he just got her number after a few minutes of convo. And they text a few times.

        Even if it’s going well and she is attracted to him. 90% of the time, him asking her to just going to her place for sex when they only seen if each other face to face a few minutes. Well most women other than straight big time thots aren’t coming over even if they are women open to casual sex. Most want to see the guy they’ve hardly talked to face to face a bit more out somewhere that’s not his home. You see party and bar hook ups are where a guy and girl are usually talking face to face and flirting for atleast an hour but often a couple hours. But most guys if they want regular sex can’t just rely on the same well and network and go various ways which includes a cold approach, being introduced to women by friends, dating, relationships. Hook up culture is exaggerated, if it was all or most sex would be had from mostly and nothing but one night stands at parties, bars or clubs.

        Dating, relationships, even just short ones count just as much if not more for the ways young men are getting sex.

  20. I found this post to be fascinating because it introduces the rationale behind certain relationship dynamics between men and women. There is a common phrase that is often asked to couples, “Who wears the pants in the relationship?” However, it is never asked why the individual wears the pants. I found it interesting that some men would prefer not to be an alpha, however, the rationale behind it makes sense. In a relationship, there are two individuals with two totally different lives that impact how they interact with one another. The reason why a man may want to be the beta in the relationship or in general is that without knowing it they have developed certain traits and/or life experiences that prevent their dominance. When reading the post, it was refreshing to see that there are some men who do not want to be an alpha. However, I do believe that the key to any relationship is mutual understanding, respect and equality overall. Therefore, when there is an alpha in the relationship it prevents both individuals from understanding one another. If one person is making all of the decisions, whether it be as simple as choosing what to have for dinner it can take away the value of the other individual’s voice. Connecting back to the Beta theory, it has immense value because it allows one to be vulnerable and understanding of one another; however, it can also be toxic because of the issues behind them (“untreated depressions”, “social anxiety”, “poor social skills”, etc).

    • Thanks for your thoughts. But it seems like most of these men that I’m talking about are actually complaining about being betas.

      • Correct!! They are complaining because they know in the real world that women only prefer beta males later in life for marriage and long-term relationships.

        Just look at major college campuses. Right off the bat, most women reject 60%+ of the men. Why? Too beta. They lack sexual attraction. This extends in to adulthood. Women only want beta males for relationships and marriage.

        They do not want these beta men for sex. That’s why when the average man (a beta male) gets married, the sex disappears. Why? Because the woman NEVER found him sexually attractive in the first damn place. Yes, she had lots of sex with the man BEFORE marriage. This was just to “get him.”

        I have seen these BS surveys of married men who talk about how sexually satisfied they are being married. It’s BS. If so, then why the growing numbers of sexless marriages? Why are men often complaining about the lack of sex in their marriages?

        It does not add up because it is just untrue.

      • Where do you get your data from?

        Studies show that only about 11% of the student body likes hook up culture – straight sex.

        Studies consistently show that women prefer emotional sex (and so do men) which you don’t go with alpha males.

        Studies also shows that most people think that others are hooking up a lot when on average students have only seven unique partners over four years of college. That isn’t a whole bunch of Women flocking to alpha males for sex

    • How does your “11% like hook up culture” statistic refute the points that were made? Yes, women don’t want to just hook up with the alpha males, they want to rope him in for themselves to keep. They probably won’t pull that off, but that’s what they are angling for. Then when the women say they “don’t like the hook up culture”, what they actually mean is “I liked hooking up with the alpha male, but it really sucked when he dumped me the next day, ergo I don’t like hook up culture. BTW, tomorrow I’m going to the beer hall with another alpha male”.

      “Studies also shows that most people think that others are hooking up a lot when on average students have only seven unique partners over four years of college. That isn’t a whole bunch of Women flocking to alpha males for sex”

      That’s the average, what is the median? It sounds to me like the alphas are hooking up with 50 women, and the betas are getting nothing, resulting in an average of 7.

      • If some people are looking up a lot but overall the average is only seven new partners in four years than your average population is having very little sex. That definitely doesn’t fit the “all women want to have sex with alpha males” scenario.

        And on your other point, there’s no clear data that women prefer alpha males — well I’m sure some women do —but I have offered some evidence that many prefer so-called betas.

      • Ies — well I’m sure some women do —but I have offered some evidence that many prefer so-called betas.”

        You’ve already been shown a ton of data. The fact that only half of men in history have reproduced. The clear statistics about women marrying up, and the divorce rate when they marry down.

      • I’ve never heard of women waiting in line to have sex with an alpha male.

        I don’t know what data you’re talking about.

        As I’ve already noted, we live in a patriarchal society that is unconsciously internalize by both women and men so that men tend to feel uncomfortable being paired with a woman who is financially superior to him and women tend to feel uncomfortable being paired with a man who is financially inferior to her. So it works both ways. With feminism it would no longer be a problem.

      • Well obviously they are not aware that they are waiting in line. They are metaphorically waiting in line, because they won’t sleep with the betas, but they have to wait until they get the attention of the alpha male. Then they delude themselves that they might be anything but a passing fling to them.

        “With feminism it would no longer be a problem.”

        Feminism can’t change millions of years of evolution. It doesn’t change how people feel. You might be able to sometimes get an authoritarian government to legislate your ideas, but you can’t change what people feel. It will be very difficult to study this question though, because successful men won’t marry feminists, and feminists, in part are anti-marriage.

        You seem to continue to live in the dream world where millions of years of men being the hunters has had no effect on biology. How could that possibly be true?

      • People are already more comfortable with women making more money than their male partners than they used to be. That’s because of feminism, not authoritarianism. And the shift wouldn’t be possible if it were biological. But because we still have patriarchy we still find the discomfort I was discussing though.

        And like I said, there’s no evidence of women clamoring to have sex with alphas.

        Women Want Emotionally Connected Sex. Why? https://broadblogs.com/2017/07/06/women-want-emotionally-connected-sex-why-3/

        Men Watch Porn, Women Read Romance. Why? https://broadblogs.com/2011/05/16/men-watch-porn-women-read-romance-why/

  21. I feel that Betas push theory that is insulting to them because they lack the confidence and security in who they are. There are so many factors that hinder anyone from having self-confidence and I think in this case, it is the culture that serves as a huge influence. Men, just like women, have an established image in society. Women must be sexy with curves and men are seen as strong with muscles. When we do not fulfill these requirements, it can all too often become a feeling of obsoleteness. When paired with another factor such as untreated depression or social anxiety, it is easy to dismiss women to only wanting dominating “alphas.” It is much easier to write off women this way than it is to admit and healthily resolve one’s own mental illnesses or underlying issues. To truly reach self-awareness and achieve a growth that overcomes these issues is a journey that many do not even make in life. There are many adults who still live with these internal struggles because of the stigma it has in society. Society ridicules men that get in touch with their feelings and perpetuate the idea that men must be tough. This also translates to unhealthy coping mechanisms and difficulties in relationships.

  22. After reading this post, I found it interesting to see the insecurity behind how betas think regarding not being wanted compared to alphas. I think this issue demonstrates the problematic imagery of what is considered to be “masculine” and because of that they do not feel as though they are not good enough in the eyes of women. Considering the fact that all women have different tastes in men both physically and personality wise, I find it quite disappointing how betas assume that “all women” want to be with alphas and that is what they prefer. It is the fact that betas are insecure of what it means to be “masculine” and because of that they tend to look down upon themselves. After reading what the combination of issues that many betas experience in dating, I think that it is completely human nature for men, in fact every human, to experience issues like social anxiety or poor social skills when they date. I feel like just because a man has these issues does not make him less compared to a man that does not. I bet that there are women who completely understand how the man feels and probably finds it more comforting to know that the man she is dating is not full of himself like a typically alpha male would. As a result, the root cause of the insecurity that so many betas feel is due to the stereotypical image of what masculinity is. Due to this, it causes men who do not have certain traits that fit this one-sided image of masculinity to feel as though they are not worthy, which is completely unfortunate.

  23. Isabelle Chappuis

    I think it is interesting that we have found a need to label men either “Alpha” or “Beta”. I do not think it is healthy for men to be put into these different categories as it can bring many issues to society and to individuals. Most men think that they need to achieve this “Alpha” male title as in they are strong, dominating, aggressive and powerful. Then there is the category of men who consider themselves “Beta” who are seen as less then, less powerful, not as masculine and dominating. Having men view themselves as a “beta” lowers their self esteem creating many other issues. Not only does having these labels affect how society sees these men but also how they view themselves. There should not be labels and categories of men as we should move towards all men being able to not have to fulfil this stereotype of being a dominating, aggressive, masculine role, but at the same time not be seen as less than if they do not fit the stereotype.

  24. I am not surprised by the findings from the University of Tennessee study; I would expect most women would want to be with a gentle, loving, and supportive partner. I wonder if many beta men push a narrative that puts them down and assumes that women prefer alpha men because of the culture of “locker room talk” and often alpha men dominating these situations and taking control in social situations. I think that it is more likely that alpha men would boast or brag about interactions with women so beta men hear these stories but other beta men don’t as often bring up or brag about their relationships with females. In addition, this post made me think about the porn industry, where often times men are depicted as alpha, being controlling and strong towards the women and the women appear to enjoy it. Perhaps this leaves men with unrealistic expectations or beliefs about what a real woman actually wants.

    • This makes so much sense to me: “I wonder if many beta men push a narrative that puts them down and assumes that women prefer alpha men because of the culture of “locker room talk” and often alpha men dominating these situations.”

      Alphas are all about dominating others. Not only are they all about sexually “conquering women” (Getting them to sleep with you) as an expression of that dominance, Like bragging about it in the locker room is another form of dominance – you’re dominating other men.

      Meanwhile, even though it’s almost all made up, a lot of men seem to believe the lies.

    • Porn is completely realistic to real life in so far as men control like 95% of what is going on in the bedroom. Women are mostly just lying there while you do to them what thing or position that you want. The only exceptions to that are when women complain that such and such a position is becoming uncomfortable, or those rare women who enjoy taking control of the situation.

      • We do train men to take the leadership role and for women to be more passive both in and out of the bedroom.

      • I missed the training course on how to act in the bedroom, and so did everyone else I’ve ever met. Despite the old Monty Python sketch “Monty Python, The Meaning of Life, sex education” this remains yet another fantastic notion promoted by the social constructionists.

      • You’ll have to tell me what it says in the Monty Python clip. Didn’t feel like confirming I was old enough to watch it.

      • LOL, are you too prudish for Monty Python? In the sketch there is a room full of school children, and the prim and proper British school teachers, remove their clothes to give a clinical demonstration on how to perform sexual intercourse.

      • Not to prudish. Just didn’t feel like giving YouTube information about me.

        The scene has nothing to do with the social construction of gender. Sex is biological, gender is a social construction (gender is what each society makes of sex differences – and varies from place to place).

      • Firstly, the topic was your claim that society tells us how to act in the bedroom. Nobody has ever told me such a thing. The topic wasn’t the social construction of gender.

        Secondly, if gender is a mere cultural social construction, why is there so much commonality between cultures that have absolutely no cultural links? I found it fascinating when I was in Russia that when the European peoples made first contact with remote Siberian peoples and traded money with them, the women took the coins and made elaborate collars and torso decorations of coins strung together. Similarly in native american tribes, beads were primarily a thing for women, in fact in some tribes only women were allowed to make them. These cultures have absolutely no contact but time and time again, we see women are far more interested in adorning themselves with decoration. Yet you won’t recognise the only thing they actually have in common is biology.

      • We do have sexual scripts about how to act in the bedroom, and they have been changing. Look at any sociology 101 textbook and you’ll see a whole discussion on this. But for instance, PIV used to be the only acceptable act and anything else was illegal in United States. (not sure how they policed this — mostly arrested gay men). You see sexual scripts very in from religion to religion. Is masturbation okay? Depends who you you ask. In some societies it’s okay to have sex outside — not so much for the Masai https://www.academia.edu/6864116/Sex_and_the_Tribes_An_Anthropological_Overview

        And I guess you haven’t read this blog post which shows how much societies vary, like how decorated men v women are. Or men in some societies or subcultures v others. https://broadblogs.com/2012/05/25/my-son-likes-girl-stuff-is-he-gay/

    • “I am not surprised by the findings from the University of Tennessee study; I would expect most women would want to be with a gentle, loving, and supportive partner.”

      Most women (not all) will only want such a partner when they are looking for just that: a long term partner etc. When it comes to sex, the alpha wins hands down.

      You should read Daniel Bergner’s book , “What Do Women Want?…..” You will get the real story!

      I can tell you from experience that there are things a woman will do sexually with an alpha male that she would not do for her long term boyfriend or husband. You would be shocked at the things women do with certain men. I often say to myself that if most men knew: 1) the type of men their wives have screwed and 2) the things they have done with and for other men sexually they would cry.

      The beta male will NEVER experience the sex that a woman will give an alpha. NEVER.

      • His book doesn’t say that women want alpha males, it says that they want to men who desperately want them.

        It also shows that while women may fantasize about a man “taking them,” experiencing that in real life can be scary or unnerving if it is a man she doesn’t know and trust.

        And even if women can be drawn to so called alpha makes for sex that doesn’t mean they want to share these men or that women are actually having a bunch of sex with these men.

        And women tend to put a lot of thought into who they are drawn to and will have sex with
        https://www.google.com/amp/s/broadblogs.com/2011/05/16/men-watch-porn-women-read-romance-why/amp/

  25. Any discussion of this topic needs to start with a definition of Alpha and Beta men.

    When I speak of alpha male, I use it in the context of sexual alpha. Here we are talking about a man who is deemed the most sexually desirable by women. A Beta male I would refer to as a man who is most highly desired for his non-sexual qualities.

    When a woman meets a man for the first time, she is going to “slot’ that man into one of the categories below:

    1) Pure Alpha Male. He is only going to be considered as a casual lover/ fuck buddy etc. This man is prized by women for his sexual qualities ONLY.

    2) Alpha Male w/Beta Traits. This is a man that is desired primarily for sexual attention he provides BUT he also possess SOME beta qualities that a woman finds appealing. This is long term boyfriend material for most women. We’re talking maybe 60/40 or 70/30 Alpha/Beta.

    3) Beta Male w/Alpha Traits. This is a man who is primarily valued for his NON SEXUAL qualities. Here we are talking the opposite #2. This is the type of man MOST women value as husband material in my view. I would say he is valued at 80% Beta/20% Alpha by a woman.

    4) Pure Beta Male. This is a man for whom women view as strictly a platonic friend. It is 100% Non Sexual.

    5) GTFOH!!! This is a man whom a woman wants absolutely nothing to do with. Period.

    Most men MUST avoid being placed in categories #3,#4, and #5. I was once in #3 while married. Since my divorce, I have conscientiously re-made myself as #s 2, and #1. My primary interaction with women is about 80% sexual and 20% non sexual. I am very upfront and explicit with women about my intentions…”I am going to primarily be your lover and NOT your long term boyfriend.” I have very little interest in spending lots of non-sexual time with a woman.

    Men MUST know just why a woman prefers him or chooses him. If a woman wants a long- term boyfriend or husband, it means she is saying she wants YOU primarily for your NON SEXUAL attention and qualities. The man has been “slotted” for #3. This man is HIGHLY likely to end up in a sexless marriage. Also, he is HIGHLY likely to get cheated on by his wife. This should be a major red flag for most men. Why?

    Most men tend to OVERESTIMATE their sexual value to a women. Likewise, most women tend to OVERESTIMATE their non sexual value to a men. In these long-term relationships, especially marriage, women are going to place a primary emphasis on the non sexual aspects of the relationships. This is usually at odds with the wants/needs and desires of most men.

    It is for the above reason(s) why I have become so hardened in my attitude against marriage or even men entering into long term relationships. It is by far, in my opinion, one of the most emasculating things a man can possibly do to himself.

    Yes, women prefer beta males for marriage and long term relationships. I will admit that such a man is good for family life and rearing kids etc. However, he is going to get the short end of the stick. When it comes to sex, the alpha male is the most preferred. Any woman who says differently is simply being dishonest.

    • Hi Huggy, Long time no see, so to speak.

      But I don’t get this: “I am very upfront and explicit with women about my intentions…”I am going to primarily be your lover and NOT your long term boyfriend.” I have very little interest in spending lots of non-sexual time with a woman.”

      I thought that you preferred the non-promiscuous for you and your partners. Has someone stolen your ID? Or have you changed you mind?

      • “I thought that you preferred the non-promiscuous for you and your partners. Has someone stolen your ID? Or have you changed you mind?”

        Yes, I have changed my view(s). Unfortunately, I had to come to grip with reality. It is something that bothers me morally. But, I think this change was necessary to get what I need and desire from women. I am convinced it is BEST to be a lover to a woman rather than a husband or long term boyfriend.

        It is impossible to discern the promiscuous women from the non- promiscuous women today. I have discovered through experience that most women who represent themselves as non promiscuous are indeed promiscuous. They are just more secretive about it. I have indeed encountered women who were very open about their sexuality. I actually have a lot of respect for them. They are more honest and forthright about things.

        I am not saying most women are promiscuous. However, most women do engage in casual sex (usually with the more alpha men) in varying degrees. I will also say that what a woman views as promiscuous behavior is different than what most men consider promiscuous behavior.

        So, it is impossible for a man to really know a woman’s sexual past or even current sexual behavior until after the fact. I have discovered this aspect of many women. A woman will engage in casual sex with an alpha male. But, when she meets a beta/alpha or alpha/beta male whom she sees as potential boyfriend material, she will “pretend” not to engage in casual sex. I have seen this with my own eyes.

        I was the casual sex partner of this good looking woman. All the while she was on a major dating site looking for a long-term boyfriend. Personally, I did not care because I was not about to become her boyfriend. I made this very clear from the beginning. For all I know, I might not have been her only fuck buddy.

        There are indeed women who are NOT promiscuous. They will have sex with a man ONLY within the confines of marriage and/or a long term relationship. I think they are probably 15%-20% of women today. It also depends on age. Usually these women have strong religious beliefs and high moral values. They are RARE.

      • If alpha males are having sex with everyone why would women feel like they need to hide their promiscuity from them? They are only doing what he is doing.

        But a lot of research has shown that women care much more about emotional connection in sex than men do. I don’t know that that is innate, Rather, we live in a culture that punishes women’s nonmonogamous sexual behavior. And actually both women and men prefer emotionally connected sex, but it’s easier for men to do it and come out unscathed – probably because women are more punished for the same behavior (as you indicate by suggesting that a promiscuous woman will try to act like she is monogamous even to a promiscuous man).

      • “If alpha males are having sex with everyone why would women feel like they need to hide their promiscuity from them? They are only doing what he is doing.”

        They are not hiding it from the ALPHA male. They hide it from the beta males. Most alpha males are non judgmental of women when it comes to sex. They get the BEST treatment from women. So, why would they have issues with women? They do not!

        However, most women know most men (who are beta males) have real issues with a promiscuous woman. It is understandable. I can defend the beta males here. Very few men want to know that their girlfriend (or wife) has a sexually sordid past. They just do not.

        But, as I said above with women you never know…Because you cannot know, you have to assume the worst. This is how I now approach things with women.

      • You had a bad experience with your ex-wife but she is not representative of most women.

      • “women care much more about emotional connection in sex than men do.”

        Because, women are hoping to snag the man who will provide resources to the children. It doesn’t matter that now we have birth control, these impulses are biologically determined over millions of years. As for men, it’s a better reproductive strategy to just have lots of children and let the women figure out where to get resources.

      • Yet you don’t find this patten in every culture.

        Are Women Naturally Monogamous?
        https://broadblogs.com/2010/12/20/are-women-naturally-monogamous-2/
        Are Women Culturally Monogamous?
        https://broadblogs.com/2010/12/22/are-women-culturally-monogamous-2/

        the math doesn’t work:
        Are Men Really More Polygamous?
        https://broadblogs.com/2013/06/03/are-men-really-more-polygamous/
        Why We Lie About Sex Partner #’s
        https://broadblogs.com/2013/06/05/why-we-lie-about-sex-partner-s/

  26. OBIANG OTSAGHE L JASON

    I personally think that the problem is our mind and self-confidence. I don’t believe anybody has a particular “Alpha” or “Beta” feeling everyday. It rotates, sometimes you feel Alpha and sometimes you feel Beta. Generally, men feel “Beta” when they have bad luck with girls, when they feel like they need to fix something on themselves. For example, when you go to night club and you have bad luck with girls, you get upset at some point and people around can feel it. Most of the time, the “Beta” is the person who gets involved in a nightclub fight. I a speaking from experience, i had a 4 friends who were in the same kind of situation. The self-confidence is definitely a great factor that plays in someone perception of himself as Alpha or Beta.
    Self-confidence is an adjustable feeling , therefore, that Theory has no solid foundation.
    I early mentioned “mind”. Sometimes, eye contacts can play with your mind. Human being have the habit to look in other people eyes. When it happens between two people of the same sex, it is always electric, unless they friends. When it happens, someone end up feeling dominated by the other. That how you end up feeling like a “Beta”. Again it’s an adjustable feeling.

    • I do think that people can shift “who they are” in reaction to situations in the presence of others. All I can say is I don’t really like dominating people, of any sort.

  27. It shifts the blame on to someone or something else other than their own behaviors.

    That said, a man with a few good beta qualities is ideal. Who wants chest beating alpha Chad? Not me.

    • I prefer the beta qualities too.

      • Yes, but just a FEW beta qualities.

        The bottom line is MOST women prefer a more Alpha man. Period. I challenge ANY woman to prove me wrong.

        The hard reality is MOST men are NOT primarily alpha. Most men, especially younger men, are probably 70% Beta and only 30% Alpha. This does not cut it for most women today.

        I would argue that this is why so many women today are single. I know this is true because of my many conversations and experiences with single women. Most women today would rather share an alpha or alpha/beta male with other women than deal with a primarily beta male.

        Today, most women want a man that is at least 70% alpha / 30% beta. But, most men available today are the exact opposite. Thanks largely to feminism….This is why so many women are rejecting these beta men during their prime years. As they get older, say 35+, these women are willing to “settle” for the beta males w/a few alpha qualities. It serves her purpose (marriage, family, financial security etc). The man is simply being used in this case. There is no romantic love or sexual attraction here. NONE.

      • I don’t know any women who want to share an alpha male, or any male. Where do you get this idea?

        In fact, on Tinder women prefer the less attractive men because they think the more attractive men are likely to be selfish stuck up snobs. Certainly not necessarily true but a common belief. And men are much more likely to all want the most attractive women on OKCupid — but that’s not true of women.

        Walk around and you’ll see plenty of women paired with betas. Me and all my friends married betas.

      • “on Tinder women prefer the less attractive men”

        That’s not true. “Guys, unless you are really hot you are probably better off not wasting your time on Tinder — a quantitative socio-economic study”

        “It was determined that the bottom 80% of men (in terms of attractiveness) are competing for the bottom 22% of women and the top 78% of women are competing for the top 20% of men.”

        View at Medium.com

        “I don’t know any women who want to share an alpha male”

        Of course they don’t WANT to share an alpha male. But they end up doing it, either wittingly, or unwittingly. That may be because they are one of their serial conquests, or because they are being played with other women in the rotation, or whatever.

        And that is why Charlize Theron “can’t get a date”. Of course she CAN get a date, but won’t date what is available to her.

        “Walk around and you’ll see plenty of women paired with betas.”

        How do you know they are paired with betas just by looking? You can’t tell by looking.

      • No. Charlize Theron says that men won’t even ask her out.

        Your tender researcher isn’t a professional. This research is professional and says that women avoid the most attractive men on Tinder.
        https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/tinder-men-too-attractive-women/%3famp

        I don’t know any women who would rather share an alpha male than have their own guy. The jealousy alone would be the opposite of pleasurable. And I don’t see that you have any research that suggests otherwise.

        Jeanne-Marie has a theory that makes sense to me. Take a look at hers and my response.

        Alpha men want to dominate everyone. They perceive sleeping with a lot of women as “conquering women.“ And then they dominate men by bragging about their “conquests.” (I’m better than you because of all the women I get.) BUT all this bragging is mostly made up. But beta guys believe it.

      • “I don’t know any women who want to share an alpha male, or any male. Where do you get this idea?”

        Do you really think the alpha male is monogamous and having sex with only ONE woman? That’s what makes him an alpha male. Women know this and don’t care. They only want the good sex he provides. They share this with their girlfriends and other women. He becomes the resident stud for these women. A real harem to be honest.

        I know you cannot be this naive. I am sure you can ask some women or female friends about his and they will confirm what I am telling you. The only time a woman is NOT willing to share an alpha man (him be non monogamous) is when that man is her boyfriend or husband. But, a real alpha male will never be a woman’s boyfriend at least not long term. Alpha men are for sex only. They are not relationship material. Some of these men might have a casual short term relationship with a woman. But, that is rare.

        “In fact, on Tinder women prefer the less attractive men because they think the more attractive men are likely to be selfish stuck up snobs.”

        This is untrue. If you look at the research and metrics for Tinder you will find:1) women swipe right far less than the men, 2) women tend to swipe right on the most attractive men (so do men), 3) women are the most selective. Tinder is all about visual appearance. So, how can what you are saying be true given the metrics?

        “Walk around and you’ll see plenty of women paired with betas.”

        TRUE! They are with them primarily for their non-sexual qualities. There simply are not enough alpha/beta guys to go around. So, women must settle for the beta/alpha guys. No woman wants a 100% total beta male.

        I think in the decades past women had to settle down with men whom they neither loved nor found attractive. Today they do not have to do so. Their mothers did so. But, they are not going to do it. The problem is the most attractive men have options just as the attractive women.

      • This research says that women prefer less attractive men on tinder
        https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/tinder-men-too-attractive-women/%3famp

        And I have heard women say that exact same thing: men who are too attractive or perceived as arrogant and narcissistic.

        I don’t know any women who would rather share an alpha male than have their own guy. And I don’t see that you have any research that suggests otherwise.

        Jeanne-Marie has a theory that makes sense to me. Take a look at her Siri and my response.

        Alpha men want to dominate everyone. They perceive sleeping with a lot of women as “conquering women.“ And then they dominate men by bragging about their “conquests.” (I’m better than you because of all the women I get.) BUT all this bragging is usually made up. And then beta guys believe it.

  28. Would be nice if you could link the actual study, so we could see what you are talking about.

    The commonly understood theory about women and “alpha males”, is not that women SAY they want alpha males, instead of steady reliable boyfriends, it’s based on what they DO. So is the study based on what women say or do?

    You could probably ask men what they want in a mate, and they’d say a steady reliable woman, but when push comes to shove in reality, they’ll pick who’s hot.

    I thought the alpha/beta thing came from the study of chimps, not wolves. Either way, I think everyone knows it’s just common terminology, not some science based description of male humans.

    If for no other reason, women go for “alpha” males, because women are passive, and the alpha males are propositioning. So goes the old joke, a certain man asks every women he meets to sleep with him. His friend inquires, “but surely, you get your face slapped a lot’?, ‘yes I do, but also I sleep with a lot of women’.

    Furthermore, women are not good at interpreting who is generous and reliable. A dominant man is successful and has access to resources. That makes him appear like he has potential to be generous. A dominant and successful man has the potential to be reliable, because he has money, even if in fact he is just a player.

    Back to the issue of hypergamy. Women will not marry down no matter how generous and reliable you are. If you aren’t more successful than the woman, how generous do you have the potential to be anyway? How reliable are you, when you are earning half the money in a dodgy job? “Alpha” males, give the impression of success, whether it is real or not. Women will not go for men who are not successful.

    According to the census bureau, when women marry down, they are so ashamed of it, they will lie to government agencies. https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/working-papers/2018/demo/SEHSD-WP2018-20.pdf

    According to the University of Chicago, when the woman earns less, the marriage is less likely to form, and more likely to end in divorce if it does. https://www.nber.org/papers/w19023

    Surely the cold hard stats don’t lie. Men want hot bodies, women want big success.

    • This post is based on data from a prior post: https://broadblogs.com/2013/08/12/women-want-betas/

      Other data come from just looking around. Plenty of “betas” are in relationships. And me and my friends actually prefer them and are all married to them.

      It’s true that the more women a man asks to sleep with him the more women and a man sleeps with. That’s just a matter of numbers. Don’t know if it’s related to alpha or beta.

      Hypergamy theories are silly in that there is just as much hyper“man”y. This is really about unconscious learning of gender. Both men and women unconsciously internalize the notion that men are supposed to be the primary breadwinner, because that’s what we grow up seeing so it becomes embedded in the brains of both women and men. And even in relatively egalitarian society is like ours patriarchy is internalized on the part of both women and men. So yes, women are reluctant to marry down but men are equally reluctant to marry up.

      If a woman says she’s a low paid flight attendant she will get way more offers from men than if she says she is a high paid attorney. Look at movie stars and you find men stars having no problem getting married but female movie stars can have quite a problem because men don’t want to marry up. Charlize Theron is talking about how hard it is for her to get a date!

      With regard to your last sentence take a look around and you’ll see plenty of women who don’t have hot bodies who have partners. Better yet, they attract better men who aren’t so superficial.

      • “If a woman says she’s a low paid flight attendant she will get way more offers from men than if she says she is a high paid attorney. Look at movie stars and you find men stars having no problem getting married but female movie stars can have quite a problem because men don’t want to marry up. Charlize Theron is talking about how hard it is for her to get a date!”

        First, that Theron woman is full of crap!!! There are many men who would want to date and f*&k her. She is not NOT interested in them. She is 43. Most men her age are NOT looking for a 43 year old woman. Just the harsh reality of nature. It is what it is!!! Funny how Heidi Klaus could find a man but she cannot. Laughable.

        “If a woman says she’s a low paid flight attendant she will get way more offers from men than if she says she is a high paid attorney.”

        Offers for what? Men, generally speaking, do not care about how much money a woman makes. It is irrelevant to most men. Women for some reason just cannot understand this…But, I tell them it is the same natural force that causes women NOT to want marriage down. Personally, I think men need to pay LESS attention to a woman’s looks and MORE to other qualities. The worst thing a successful man can do is marry a much lower income/status woman. He is more than likely going to pay a heavy price financially.

        “With regard to your last sentence take a look around and you’ll see plenty of women who don’t have hot bodies who have partners.’

        Of course! They have to partner with someone, so the beta male is their ONLY option. These women cannot attract an alpha or alpha/beta man. As for superficiality, women are far MORE superficial than men.

        For example, a woman is far more likely than a man to date or marry a guy due solely to his status, his wealth/income, or his family name etc. Men could care less about either of these things. Both men and women can be superficial, but in terms of DEGREE, women have it hands down. Again, i will use Harvey Weinstein. His wife is a beautiful women (maybe ex wife now). He is a disgusting looking slob in my opinion. Yet, she chose to marry the guy. Why? Well, you can answer that one! I attended a event where Treasury Secretary Mnuchin was present along with this wife. Honestly, the guy is ugly. Yet he has this gorgeous wife. Why? It’s about status and $$$. Very few men would marry a woman because of her $$$ or status. Very few.

      • We live in a patriarchy that believes in male superiority, a concept that both women and men unconsciously internalize, leaving both women and men somewhat uncomfortable with a match where the woman is more successful. Yes, some people don’t describe to this view but many, many do.

        Audrey Hepburn and Goldie Hawn both talked about how difficult it was to find a man who could handle her success. James Taylor divorced Carly Simon because he couldn’t handle it when she became more popular than him. Same thing with Ethan Hawke and Uma Thurman. And then there is this https://www.google.com/amp/s/broadblogs.com/2013/08/30/man-chops-off-wifes-fingers-because-shes-more-educated-than-him/amp/

  29. So many factors associated with this Alpha & Beta male concept. I think success is an attraction. If an Alpha is successful (however the observer cares to define success), he probably attracts interest. If the Alpha is unsuccessful, I suspects he probably attracts disgust. If a Beta is successful, I suspect he draws even more interest than the successful Alpha. If the Beta is unsuccessful, I suspect it may be possible that he attracts even less interest than the unsuccessful Alpha. I suspect everything I just said is subjective and other views are as valid.

    • If just focused on success (whatever that means, as you say) that makes some sense, I suppose. But there are other ways to attract, like empathy, introspection, wide reader and being interesting… Me and all of my friends married men like that. Not an “Alpha” among them (thank the gods).

  30. Being a beta myself, I feel that the alpha existence is largely limited to cinema, sports, and the ramp. There are not many alphas in other walks of life, where people leave their marks by their achievements. Eventually what counts is the societal footprint.

  31. Every time I hear blokes complain that women only want these 10/10, alpha males I think, “have you not ever been to a shop or just been outside generally?” You only have to go out into public and you will be surrounded by ‘just okay’, looking, ‘beta’ men happily walking hand in hand with their just okay looking girlfriends! Their theory falls apart literally the moment they walk out of the house.

      • Maybe they are thinking of the hot women instead? Maybe they are thinking as far as casual sex and hook ups? But like you said, it might not be these guys are more attractive to women. But these guys take more chances. A mediocre baseball batter is going to get more hits on base from going up to bat many times than a more naturally talented batter, but who hardly goes up to bat right? I have both qualities. I have the introverted, reflective, have some social anxiety. But I have a cocky/funny humor/ charm in a playful way naturally alpha guys often have that kind of ‘swag’. I’m not afraid to tease and fiirt and can get away with stuff that others trying would be seen as obnoxious.

        But it’s because I’m aware of how and when to say things and not over doing it, and the person’s personality, etc. There’s psychology involved based on feeling out who I’m talking to and their sense of humor and how they react to things. And social skills can be like a muscle, something others might have naturally, but just trial and error and get better at from talking to people and taking chances and improving. These guys are too busy blaming women than trying to work on themselves or just take the chances to get better that the alphas have done. I think many people are often their worse enemies. That has been for me, being analytical. Things can be worse than they actually are to me. I’ve never blamed others though as in doing so is saying you’re unattractive or whatever. I never felt that way and feel the opposite, I have to keep to myself sometimes as there aren’t too many guys that aren’t like high status that I feel are more attractive than me lol. Yes there are definitely better looking guys, but there’s so much that counts for sex appeal and attraction. Intelligence, personality, ambitions, humor, etc. I know I’m very high on the other area, so it all adds together for guys I feel in this complete sex appeal package combination. Guy’s who are sexy to women are not simply good looking. It’s not the hottest guy, but like I said wit, charm, intelligence, confidence all wrapped up together. I feel a good looking guy that’s strikingly witty has more sex appeal to women than a model, ridiculously good looking guy, but is dumber than a box of rocks. Sure ‘himbos’ will probably get laid at times, but I think the former would peak interest for women both in regards to relationship or hook ups.

      • “These guys are too busy blaming women than trying to work on themselves or just take the chances to get better.”

        That sounds right to me. I’ve seen some of these guys complain that women are so horrible, when they, themselves, are such nice guys – proving that they are not at all nice and are, actually someone who is angry and who you really want to avoid.

      • “I’ve seen some of these guys complain that women are so horrible, when they, themselves, are such nice guys – proving that they are not at all nice and are, actually someone who is angry and who you really want to avoid.”

        So, are you saying there are fewer horrible women than men? I really don’t know the answer. But, I can tell you there are most certainly a lot of horrible women out here. But, it would appear that saying as much is unacceptable. It is “hate speech” or whatever else nonsense we hear uttered today.

        Yes, there are many angry men out here. Many have every right to be angry. There are also lots of men out here who have encountered horrible women who have done horrible things to them. However, our legal system, as well as society in general, condons the bad behavior women often exhibit towards men.

        No sex has a monopoly on being horrible.

      • I think there are plenty of horrible women and men out there. My only point is that a lot of guys complain that women don’t like nice guys like them when they come across as being really hostile. I don’t know the women complain about guys not liking nice women like them. Although I do know women who are horrible who complained that other people don’t like nice people like them.

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