Women in Pornography
Posted by BroadBlogs
In America, pornography is almost unavoidable. What sorts of messages does it send?
To find out, I looked at the 10 “most viewed” videos on PornHub.
Two were celebrity sex tapes, and I didn’t look at those because their popularity was probably less about what they were doing than who was doing it.
All of the remaining videos were:
- shot from the male’s perspective
- the male’s pleasure was primary
- “foreplay” consisted of fellatio
- the female’s body was the focus of most shots
- the male orgasm concluded each video
The pornography I looked at ignored female sexuality and was degrading toward women.
For instance, the women were are often put in vulnerable positions that indicated inferiority. The usual sexual positions included man on top, woman on top, “doggy style” where the woman was posed on her hands and knees or her stomach, or side by side.
In a majority of the videos (7 of 10) the woman was on her knees, mouth wide open, while the man ejaculated onto her face or into her mouth. This is an obvious sign of disrespect.
Maybe the most disturbing trend was the normalization of sexual assault, incest, and the invasion of privacy.
Nearly half of the videos began with the premise of a stepbrother or stepfather spying on a woman, or a woman and her group of friends. Knowing that these were pornographic videos, this scenario always led to what appeared to be consensual sex between the characters. But in reality, incest and invasion of privacy are not consensual.
- the male’s pleasure is primary
- men are entitled to sex
There were 24 actors and actresses in the videos. Of these, 21 appeared to be white.
The remaining three were Latinas, and stereotypes were in force. In one video, the woman was dressed as a maid who spoke solely in Spanish while her partner spoke mainly in English. The other two played into the “spicy Latina” stereotype.
Lastly, pornography creates unrealistic beauty ideals. All 10 videos showed women with the same body type: young, slim waist, large breasts — and buttocks to match, with long, typically blond hair.
Since pornography is so commonly viewed, men may become accustomed to this body type to the point where they expect it. This creates pressure on women to conform, creating body negativity and self-esteem issues.
By contrast, men’s bodies were rarely seen in any of the videos. (Although, I have heard men complain about a large penis size that they feel they must live up to.)
The message pornography sends is that the most acceptable female is a submissive white woman, who is often humiliated, or used as an object.
I fear that the easy access and popularity of this sort of pornography will only continue to perpetuate the inequality between men and women.
This was written by one of my students to asked to use a pen name.
About BroadBlogsI have a Ph.D. from UCLA in sociology (emphasis: gender, social psych). I currently teach sociology and women's studies at Foothill College in Los Altos Hills, CA. I have also lectured at San Jose State. And I have blogged for Feminispire, Ms. Magazine, The Good Men Project and Daily Kos. Also been picked up by The Alternet.
Posted on September 14, 2016, in body image, feminism, objectification, pornography, psychology, sex and sexuality, sexism and tagged body image, feminism, messages of pornography, objectification, pornography, psychology, sex, sexism, women in pornography. Bookmark the permalink. 125 Comments.
I agree with some of the messages being sent from pornography. These messages are being sent from the male perspectives because all the categories listed are from the minds of male fantasies. Even though porn is just a fantasy illusion; there are dangers of porn that affect some men who would try what they saw with their partners or strangers. If the partner does not like what the male is doing and keeps continuing then the male ends up raping his partner. Pornography should have more requirements for access since pornography can be accessed at any age.
Thanks for your perspective
I want to offer you the idea of the possibility that these videos are not actually the most viewed by choice but rather are the most linked to through advertising or other means, done by studios that are just out to seek a profit and not produce anything of ‘quality’. I think you may be losing your hope in guys or man/womankind based on misleading reasons.
I’ve seen that page with the most viewed videos, and my perspective is it is all absolute crap, with poor lighting, poor camerawork, and generally reletively unattractive and unskilled ‘performers’. This leads me to believe it is definitely at the top because of marketing, and that the racial mix, body types, and acts performed are misleading of the actual production and consumption of the material. At least I’m hopeful; hopeful I don’t need to also lose any hope in humankind, because so many are (explitive’s) who view this particular crap.
Something that might be more of an indication of what’s most ‘popular’ (basically what people are getting off to is what your seeking to find, which makes even me a little uncomfortable) is to ‘assess’ the most profitable studios, the most popular one I think makes a very large percent of all the profits in the industry. Though again you’ll likely find women being degraded, lack of foreplay, and a bias in camerawork, at least. I do wonder how many women out there agree with your perspective. It’s be interesting to find out.
Robert Jensen is a journalism professor from the University of Texas and he analyzed pornography videos back before the Internet was the most common way to get porn, in 2004. He asked the video store owners which were the most popular videos and stay consistently showed Women being harmed and demeaned. Other research found that the people who most watched this sort of thing were less likely to want to have baby girls because they came to value females less. My personal opinion is that men aren’t bad. But that these types of videos don’t help gender relations much.
Great article Ms. Platts! Pornography in many ways will definitely continue to perpetuate the inequality between men and women. The most “potent” think about porn is the fact that it is very addicting, easily accessible, and it also sets standards for a plethora of things. From the image of a woman to the way a man should be performing, porn revolves around the man primarily with the woman almost always being presented as an object almost. Even the “performance” itself degrades women and by all means disrespectful as well. I think it is really important to really put the word out there that porn is merely just a form of entertainment, it is also “advertisement” for unrealistic and unnecessary standards.
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
I agree with a lot of the points stated in the article. It is more common to see a woman disrespected in porn, mainly because statistics have shown in the past that men tend to watch more porn than women do. That was only because women were more afraid to admit to watching it, if they did. Nowadays, things are changing, as women are becoming more open and the people are more accepting of the fact that it is totally normal for a woman to watch porn too. Body image is also something that people are becoming more accepting of but porn seems to display images of what a “perfect” woman should look like and how she should perform during intercourse. Most of us now know that women are all different and can be beautiful and “perfect” in our own ways.
What do you call “older porn”. Prior to VHS, all there was was what they would show in the cinema, which was what was perceived to have wide appeal. As soon as there was VHS, then we find out what people really wanted to watch. VHS came of age in 1986 when rentals first exceeded cinema takings, and market penetration was finally very wide. One of the biggest producers of the porn you mention was Max Steiner (Hardcore) who started in 1992 and was winning awards for it in 1994. So there was almost no gap between the porn age and the widespread type of porn you mention.”
There is a difference between that porn and what is porn now. Therefore it shows that men are inherently into ultra aggressive, dominance porn, otherwise they would have never liked the older porn which isn’t or wasn’t as aggressive as well as explicit as porn now. The fact there is, shows how what is commonly shown can shape people’s taste and preference to wanting something else more.
You seem to be contradicting the facts Bob. I pointed out that the age of so-called dominance porn came only a few years after the rise of ubiquitous VHS, therefore almost as soon as men had the choice, they chose it. Sure pre-VHS porn was milder, but there were laws (or at least perceived to be laws) about what you could show in a cinema. In the 70s, they tentatively tested the boundaries of what the law allowed and slowly pushed the legal boundaries. I don’t see a single reason to assume that porn shaped what men want, rather than men shaping what porn offered. According your back to front thinking, nobody wanted cruise control in their cars. The car industry manipulated us into thinking we wanted it. The fact that all cars now have cruise control is because we are pawns of the car industry, and that cars in the 70s didn’t have cruise control clearly shows how the car industry shapes our tastes and preferences.
People liked and were fine without cruise control until it came along and pursuaded them to be into that. Anyway you keep missing the point. Dude, this domination porn that came after the rise of vhs is quite tame to what is on now. I’ve been talking about this in relation to internet porn and what has come up like explained in this post. You didn’t see such stuff or scenarios even with this so called domination porn during vhs tape times. Your whole argument was based that men like this porn and domination porh because men inherantly or this reflects what men are biologically driven to desire and want in real life. If that was true then there wouldn’t be a difference in desires which i already explained. If this is biological and inherent for men, then why would men want to and inherently prefer porn of the male dominating when in real life it’s not like that and more balanced? Why would it be lopsided with porn as far as visual desire and not in real life? There has to be something in play that influenced men to want to watch men dominate in porn when real life doesn’t follow. If this is inherent then the desires in real life would reflect desire and preference with porn, but they aren’t.
I think you’re in a dreamworld Bob about the state of early VHS movies. Here’s list of early VHS era movies and these are not even the hardcore ones! http://www.imdb.com/list/ls002799422/
To take the plot of one of them from 1983: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085802/plotsummary?ref_=tt_ov_pl
“After a young man marries, he starts having hallucinations that he is the Marquis De Sade. He begins having nightmares that he is attending deviant S&M orgies, where he engages in whippings, piercings and other degradations against women, and ending with his tying up and strangling his new wife.”
Or what of this one from 1983: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086055/plotsummary?ref_=tt_ov_pl
“A woman who has accidentally come into possession of an ancient Chinese manuscript is kidnapped by a gang trying to find the manuscript, and when she refuses to tell where it is, she is tortured, raped and forced to perform in a B&D/S&M sex show.”
” If this is biological and inherent for men, then why would men want to and inherently prefer porn of the male dominating when in real life it’s not like that and more balanced?”
Privately everyone wants to be Napoleon Bonaparte, but reality kind of interferes with that. If you want to see what men are happy to do, look at when there are no restrictions from reality. Porn is one example. What happens in wartime when laws don’t apply is another.
I’ll jump in to say that while you can find these types of movies, and ideas, over the centuries — Marquis de Sade being 18th-century — the whole tenor of pornography shifts when it moves to the Internet, becoming much more violent toward women. Probably because the saturation leaves men bored with boobs and butts so that they feel like they need something stronger to get them aroused. On the other hand, in close relationships people don’t need something stronger constantly. The emotional connection and multi dimensions of their partner keeps them interested. In fact, there is evidence that the more emotionally close a couple is, the longer their sex lives last, and sex can even get better over time. See John Gottman’s research.
“On the other hand, in close relationships people don’t need something stronger constantly.”
Ah yes, that’s why the divorce rate is so low, and the number of people having affairs is practically nil.
The divorce rate is around 50%, and around 50% of married people will at some point have an affair.
And you can pretty much make a safe bet that of the remaining couples, most of them are unhappy, but haven’t done anything about it.
Not all marriages are emotionally close. If you’re having an affair it surely not one of the close ones. Again, see John Gottman’s research
Those marriages that are emotionally close are because they are doing new things constantly.
There’s only one couple in my extended family that I would consider emotionally close. Always saying nice things about each other on Facebook. They are swingers. So no shortage of constant new experiences there.
Go look at any web site about keeping romance alive. Like this one:
#2: have fun.
#3: Experience new things together.
So I guess the secret to being emotionally close is after all, doing new stuff constantly. It’s human nature in all spheres of life, not just porn. You’ve driven the Mazda MX-5, and it was great for a while, now you’re bored. You need to try the Mustang GT. Then you’re bored and can’t get excited unless it’s a Porsche. Or you buy that Seiko and it’s fun for a while, then you need an Omega to be excited. Then only a Rolex will get you excited. Then a Patek. It’s human nature, get over it.
The marriages you are describing appear to be stable but they may or may not be emotionally close. I have friends who are in open marriages, but I would not describe them as emotionally close.
Doing new things together does seem to help sustain interest. But those new things don’t have to involve relationships with other people. And usually relationships with other people harm rather than help intimacy. Intimacy simply doesn’t seem to be with these people value, as I have surmised from conversations with one of my friends who is in an open marriage.
So marriage can be more interesting when you do new things like — depending on the interest of the couple — go skydiving or get tickets to the theater or travel– whatever is new and interesting to the couple.
But intimacy actually doesn’t come from these types of things, Even if they do makes a marriage for interesting. John Gottman studied marriages for over 20 years and found that intimacy came from “moving toward.” Moving toward includes the many small moments of connection that build emotional connection and partnership. I will be writing more about this later.
And you might be interested in this:
Why Hasn’t Open Marriage Caught On?
But also, about three-quarters of both men and women prefer sex with emotional connection. And sex with other people is frequently destructive to emotional connection.
You might also be interested in these:
How Guys Think About Sex & Dating
Women Want Betas
This is all very well and all, but the kind of marriages you are talking about are about as rare as genuine sitings of Bigfoot, or genuine alien encounters. So what’s the point in saying porn is so evil because if you had genuine intimacy you wouldn’t need that? If you have this near mythical genuine intimacy, then it will hardly be harmed by a bit of porn. And if you don’t, it’s hardly going to magically appear in the absence of porn. Intimacy doesn’t happen because people get together or get married whose interests and thought processes, priorities and values are quite different, and that’s unlikely to change. I think back to that show “Married at first sight” where specialist psychologists and therapists make arranged marriages for people who in theory have similar priorities and values, and even then they basically failed to achieve the mythical intimacy.
And you know what? I’ll bet even those mythical intimate couples get dead bored as well. Sure, they might not need a new hit of adrenaline just to keep the relationship afloat, but they might need it to keep their own psychology afloat.
Well research has followed them and they are not mythical, they are real. And if you really want to be happy and have a happy marriage, you can learn a lot from their lives.
“you can learn a lot from their lives.”
No doubt. But couples can’t emulate them through such force of will. You’ve either got it, or you aint.
Maybe. Maybe not.
I was watching William H Macy accept an acting award and he told his wife that he loves that he gets to get in bed with her every night. When asked about it he said that that is what his wife tells him every night. These two are actors and accustomed to taking on a state of mind and authentically living it. I wondered if making that choice affects how you actually see things and decided to try myself. It works!
“These two are actors and accustomed to taking on a state of mind and authentically living it.”
I guess that’s why Hollywood marriages are the bedrock of the community with their stability and sincerity.
Do you see no irony in promoting fantasy play acting in your relationship as a comment on your own article railing against porn fantasy films?
Well just because an actor could do it doesn’t mean that they would. Probably most wouldn’t even think about it.
In my opinion, like the author, I too agree that pornography is degrading towards women and just plain wrong. I’m sure that people have a variety of different reasons why they choose to enter the pornography business, the main reason probably being for financial gain. I’ve personally noticed that in pornographic videos, it seems that women have no say in what happens to them as if they were circus animals! The women aren’t allowed to say “stop”, “cut”, or “it hurts,” instead they must go through with whatever is happening to them. On one hand, I believe that pornography was made strictly for the entertainment purposes and sick minds of men. However, on the other hand I also believe that pornography can actually prevent sexual crimes from occuring such as rape towards women because it is a way that a man can ejaculate without actually having sexual intercourse, most of the time. The porn industry has become one of the largest industries in the world as it continues to grow and increase everyday. You would think that people will eventually run out of ideas for pornography videos and it will have to end one day. Not only is pornography degrading towards women, it is also stereotypical, racist, and gives all white women with blonde hair a bad look.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Even though I’ve went against porn as in the mainstream porn. I don’t think porn or sexual entertainment is inherently degrading to women. It’s just become that way or more so nowadays. I don’t believe people having sex for visual entertainment is degrading to women. Even if the women are the one’s causing arousal and lust to their bodies, since men are highly attracted and visual to women’s bodies as well as their bodies sexualized. I think it’s become that though especially with the recent stuff like I said and the mainstream porn stuff. The vintage porn was really, more or less men and women having sex. Sure there was some stuff, even thought I don’t think it’s dominance that’s bad, but how it’s done.
Before in older porn, it wasn’t as common for double penetration stuff or where a chick is gagging on a man’s dick or lifted up like a pretzel and like a rag doll. If it was, it was more rare. Now it seems that’s in a lot or much porn or where they get cummed on their faces and such. I think women in porn don’t have much choice about what happens with sex and the director’s ideas is what they go by. And they feel they will or are signing up for sex that can be rough. But I don’t think they “can’t say stop or cut it” if during the sex scene it hurts, I’m sure if the women say stop, the sex will stop. I mean that would be rape afterall right? Since many guys are decent and wouldn’t want to harm a woman, I’m pretty sure the male porn stars do stop if and when something is wrong.
“On one hand, I believe that pornography was made strictly for the entertainment purposes and sick minds of men. ”
I don’t think it;’s good to vilify men. There are perverted and creepy men. But the thing with porn is that many men watch it, many who are decent guys. The reason I say this is I think most guys have watched or still watch porn or have a collection. Regular decent guys, not because they are creeps, though creeps can be among that, but because of how sexualized women’s bodies are, how visual men are and how horny and sex drive men are. Where they need to have a release or want to, so they can focus and be productive during the day.
“You would think that people will eventually run out of ideas for pornography videos and it will have to end one day. ”
It won’t end from running out of ideas, I mean most porn does the same stuff anyway but guys still watch. It won’t end until a couple of things. Women’s bodies are normalized. Women aren’t slut shamed and given sexual agency. Men’s bodies are shown more to be sexy. Women are more equal and gender roles in dating and sex between men and women are dropped or blurred. If that happens women would be less selective perhaps and more initiating with men, and men would be less obessed with women’s bodies where they have to have a release everyday and jerk off everyday and basically walking blue balls. You have all this, there would be less need of porn for men as getting laid would be easier for men, women would be more willing to iniate without being shamed and people would be happier and getting more sex as well as men less amped up to where they need to get off constantly too. Sexualized images in our culture causes men to be in a constant state or arousal pretty much.
“Before in older porn, it wasn’t as common for….”
What do you call “older porn”. Prior to VHS, all there was was what they would show in the cinema, which was what was perceived to have wide appeal. As soon as there was VHS, then we find out what people really wanted to watch. VHS came of age in 1986 when rentals first exceeded cinema takings, and market penetration was finally very wide. One of the biggest producers of the porn you mention was Max Steiner (Hardcore) who started in 1992 and was winning awards for it in 1994. So there was almost no gap between the porn age and the widespread type of porn you mention.
“in pornographic videos, it seems that women have no say in what happens to them”.
You mean like in all TV shows, and films?
There is something more about women in porography. The oversexualization of the female body in the media and porn is about white women mostly. Sure there are a few black female super models but the vast majority of magazines covers and porn actresses and are white women.
Specifically it’s the white female body that has been oversexualized.
And that could also be a proof that is a cultural thing. That’s why most people see the female white body as sexy.
I’m answering or this is the edit of my last posts in relation to the one by jean claude about russia banning some sites and it saying “go out and meet people”. The problem is that doesn’t work and out culture to play a big factor. Men will seek out porn as long as things don’t change because of a couple reasons. First women’s bodies are so sexualized that men are almost in a constant state of arousal. Therefore men’s sex drives are amped up, but most men aren’t rock stars where they are have the frequency of sex to match their lust and drive. So what are they going to get their fix from? Well porn right? If women’s bodies were less sexualized, men would be less likely or often in a constant state of arousal and if bodies normalized porn, the porn industry would be hurt big time, so much less need to watch porn for men and it would be watched less. But I like I said with constant state of arousal, that means even guys getting sex from other women, could still be and I know guys who still like to watch porn despite having sex, because of the amped up sex drive from our highly sexualized culture with women and their bodies.
And because of this, even men in a relationships could still year for porn sometimes because the frequency of sex they have is not enough for their sex drive or like you have said with women’s repression. Women in relationships, because of repression could really not desire that much frequent sex or it to wane over time, so men wanting more sex but her not. So another reason men will go to porn. Then you factor in, many guys who find it hard to approach women or meet women and they want to or try to. The last thing they like seeing is “go out and meet women” when I’m sure they are thinking “don’t you think I am?”. It could be irritating and salt in the wound like a person telling a dyslexic to just read a few pages. So it’s the sexualization, slut shaming which represses women sexually to want less sex or approach less and gender roles with dating too where men are the initiators and approachers and I believe causes women to be more selective. So this all adds up to either men getting sex but amped up from sexualized images where they need a release and want more sex or stilumation or men not getting much sex and struggling, and need a release so they naturally go to porn. I understand it’s bad for guys to be addicted, but many guys watch porn, but aren’t addicted but do watch it a decent amount. So if men are to not watch porn or as much, these things need to be improved first
I didn’t think I wrote too much or wanted to make two points which is why the two posts, can you post mine again so I can edit them or just post one instead of two?
Beautiful article at such less talked about subject ..kudos
A great video about porn addiction and how if affects people
Overall I think this article was not surprising at all. Brittany looked at the 10 most viewed videos. What was she expecting to find? The only thing that surprised me was 3 Latina women and not Asian. Nothing here was surprising. Plus, looking at the most viewed doesn’t take into account the changing taste in porn. I think it would have been more interesting if Brittany would have compared, if it was possible, the most viewed in the past month to most view in the past year to most viewed ever. What has changed and what has stayed the same?
Believe it or not, a lot of my readers don’t regularly watch porn and didn’t know this information. And even those who do seem to watch it disagreed with one another on certain issues. Take a look at the comments. Otherwise, also take a look at my comment policy https://broadblogs.com/comment-policy/
I apologize. I just reread my original post and I was out of line. I don’t know where my head was when I wrote the comment. This will not happen again. I like BroadBlogs and I want to continue to comment on your site. Again I apologize for my comment I was out of line.
Thank you for the apology. It’s okay for people to disagree. But they need to be polite about it.
And here. http://elitedaily.com/women/top-sex-positions-for-men-women/1276810/
If men are so universally dominant, why is woman on top #2 on favorite and #1 on wanting to do more often? If men love control and dominance so often why would this matter. I think a man would like most sex in a male dominant position most of the time then right? But it sounds they like a woman in control almost as much as them.
And if women are so submissive, why out of different positions, woman on top is among the favorite or right up there either just behind missionary or doggy or both? For both men and women they both had woman on top at #3 and men even had #4 be another woman in control position with reverse cowgirl and that was up there for women too. And from what I’ve seen woman on top is usually close as far as rated with missionary and doggy. People asked, men and women had missionary #1, but the percentage difference pretty close. 32% for missionary while 22% for woman on top.
That’s only a 10 percent difference. No.2 was doggystyle, but at 23% so a measly 1 percent more favorite to woman on top. If woman are as submissive as you think and men are lopsided dominant in their desires woman on top shouldn’t even be mixed either with a being no 1 or interchangeable with the top 3 and women wouldn’t have it rated so high with what they like and want. And like I said with the sex fantasies thing, men and women’s dominant and submissive fantasies are not that big of a difference as you think and definitely not lopsided. They should be if women are inherently much more submissive than men or men inherently much more dominant than women. It suggests that culture probably plays some role. Not that women don’t or can’t have submissiveness biologically, but it’s not as much as you think or most women like you think. Don’t forget women are more self conscious and feel more pressure than men with how they look during sex too that men don’t face as much. So it’s easer for women to want to not be in a position where their body is viewed like it would be in the woman on top position.
“If men are so universally dominant, why is woman on top #2 on favorite and #1 on wanting to do more often? ”
So what’s your position Bob? That male oriented porn is very balanced in its portrayal of male domination? Or that male domination is actually by far the male favourite?
It would be nice to see you take a consistent position so we know how to respond to it.
I’m pointing out that unlike your insinuation, is that what men like to watch with porn doesn’t reflect that men like to dominate to the lopsided extent more than women like you seem to think and the porn is a reflection of men’s desires. When the fact that woman on top being such a common position men enjoy and want more of or even many may prefer shows it’s not lopsided like you think. If men in real life desired domination or being dominant as much as what is shown in porn or today’s porn, then woman on top would be like on the bottom of various positions and like the top 5 would be variations of man on top or doggy style variations, but they aren’t. Woman on top usually falls somewhere in the top 3, sometimes depending on surveys above missionary in some polls.
I’ve been consistent from the beginning, you’re just not grasping simple comparisons. The porn industry has a way of causing men to like more things, maybe not because it’s what they wanted initially or the whole time, but since porn is easily found and seen. Nudity may not be as exciting for men or regular sex, so things are amped up with more male aggression. So young boys get used to it and then want more and like it. If boys or more were not conditioned to this, then boys and men would have watched and wanted this type of porn a long time ago. You know porn in the 70s, 80s which is different than today’s. Porn back then was more like regular sex or not nearly as aggressive as now, but guys watched and liked it and didn’t have a problem or want it amped up. If porn was a reflection that men were so lopsided in wanting to dominate than women in regards to sex in real life and this was inherent then there wouldn’t have been a difference in vintage porn to porn now with now much more aggressive. Sexual fantasies and desires would be lopsided, like I’ve said a thousand time but they aren’t. The percentages of men wanting to dominate and women wanting to dominate as well as submission are not that far off. Yes more men have domination fantasies then women, and more women submission fantasies, but they were only like a 10% diffference from both. That’s not a big difference especially if men are to be inherently more dominant and then you factor in how our culture is set to amp up men’s aggression and expression and women differently. With all this and considering all that, there should be a much bigger difference, but there isn’t.
So then Bob, you’re citing one porn viewing statistic as proof that men and women have the same level of dominance fantasies as being the “natural” situation. And you’re citing other porn viewing observations, this time assuming it is unnatural and caused by the bad influence of porn.
How nice for you that you can cherry pick your statistics, and decide which ones are “proof” of normal behaviour and which ones are proof of abnormally influenced behaviour. Obviously you’ve got your particular agenda and every data point can only be proof of your pre-conceived conclusion.
Bob — you mean surveys finding that men are about as likely as women to fantasize about being dominated?”
Two things georgia. I was referring to the fantasies, I think there was a survey of that I’ve seen before and from what you had to. You can post the link to that blog post if you want, so Fred can see evidence. And I’ve seen surveys, like from men’s health or similar where couples talked about sex positions and quite a bit of men either liked woman on top more or just as much as missionary or doggy. And women preferring woman on top. Woman on top basically was quite common and seemingly done just as much as other positions, so to me, it suggested women may not be dominant, but are more active in bed and more aggressive or not as submissive or passive as fred thinks.
Not that there aren;t many submissive women, but not all or most, but women not as submissive as he thinks. I think what holds women back sometimes is self consciousness with their bodies and like your post was about women not sure if they are doing things right. That was a common thing I’ve heard some women say why they do woman on top less is because their partner can see more of their body or they aren’t sure if they are doing it right, etc. Whereas, when a woman is in missionary, less of her body is seen or exposed, so she can feel less self conscious as well as not stressing about her performance since the guy is the one doing it.
Yeah it’s nearly half of women and men who are into the submissive thing. Here’s the link:
Men, Women & Domination Fantasies
Thanks for your thoughts.
It’s amazing to see you simultaneously hold two contradictory propositions. If men’s preponderance to have dominant and submissive fantasies is equal to women’s, why all the angst over this porn with dominant themes? After all, according to you there’s equal numbers of women craving similar porn with dominant women. And another similar group of women enjoying the submissive themes. You can’t have it both ways. Either men are clearly more attracted to dominant themes with the evidence being popularity of the porn cited. Or else women have the same fantasies in which case it’s highly hypocritical to criticise the male version thereof, when women are secretly into the same thing. Of course if you choose the latter you’ve got a difficult job explaining why the unrestricted nature of the porn industry isn’t catering to it.
First, I’m not complaining about men. I’m complaining about patriarchy. And plenty of men are also against patriarchy, believing that women and men are of equal worth and dignity and should have equal rights.
Just like whites and racism are not the same thing. Plenty of whites are against racism.
I personally don’t like domination culture of any sort whether it is women dominating men or men dominating women.
And just to clarify, because I couldn’t tell from your comment that you got it: men and women are about equally likely to have fantasies about submitting to a dominant person.
“I personally don’t like domination culture”
You are of course welcome to like and not like whatever you want in your own life. Why are you criticising other people for what they like though? You are against women who like to be submissive?
I’m against cultures that make one group of people feel lesser than another.
And why do you insist on the theory that submissiveness is being “lesser”?
I guess you are totally against all workplaces and all governments, since we are all called to be submissive to our boss and submissive to the laws of the land.
If all women are expected to be submissive then all women are lesser-than.
In the workplace situation you proposed submissive isn’t quite the word I would use. You do need leadership, And some people are more knowledgeable and skilled than others. If everyone has a chance to work their way up in an organization regardless of things like gender and race, that is sensible.
“If all women are expected to be submissive then all women are lesser-than.”
So according to your theory then, if there is a relationship where the woman chooses to be submissive because she likes it, then she is choosing to be lesser, is that it? Submissive = lesser?
Here are my thoughts:
Learning to Like Torture in Shades of Grey
Shades of Making Sexism Sexy
Fifty Shades of Pro-Orgasm
My attempt to paraphrase your thoughts, as I interpret these links you’ve given, is to say, oh those poor misguided women who choose to be submissive and like to be submissive, they’ve been unduly influenced by society and by the patriarchy. So according to you, everyone should be dominant. Try it at work sometime, appoint everyone as the equal boss, and observe the chaos.
You say you want everyone to have equal chance to work their way up in an organisation – fine, but you haven’t worked your way to the absolute top… yet anyway. So you’re “lesser”, right? As the submissive worker?
Research has found that what you might call obedient workers aren’t the best thing. Businesses are benefited by workers who think and bring positive input to management, and who do their jobs in proactive ways. So mindless submissive workers aren’t such a great thing. And it’s hard for me to think of any worker as being “submissive.” Maybe someone is working at a factory and is taught how to do the job. That isn’t submissive. They’re just doing the job correctly.
But research has also found that people are happiest when I feel like they have a lot of autonomy at work.
And I am actually very autonomous at work. I teach college and blog, and as such, have a lot of autonomy. I don’t see myself as lesser-than the Dean or the college president. We just have different jobs. I’m not interested in administration. I’m interested in teaching and writing.
And as I said when you have a large group of people you do need some organization and some people to take leadership. I just don’t think that leadership should be dependent on sex and race, but rather on knowledge, skills and leadership talent.
You don’t think submissive people are autonomous? You don’t think the stereotypical submissive housewife is autonomous about cooking dinner, cleaning the house and so forth? You think such a stereotypical submissive housewife is always waiting for hubby to say NOW cook dinner, NOW vacuum the floor?
No, you are confusing submission with autonomy. You are autonomous at work, great. But when your boss tells you to do A, B, C, you DO IT. Therefore you are lesser by your reasoning.
You got my argument correctly. If you are autonomous you are not submissive.
Why is it important to you to cling on to domination culture instead of seeing the benefits of a partnership culture?
Well of course nobody is completely autonomous, unless you are a monk living on a mountain top. And nobody is completely submissive (if we accept your theory that autonomy means not being submissive).
I take it you accept that you are not in partnership with your boss at work, and I haven’t heard you argue yet that your boss ought to cede his hierarchy, monarchy, patriarchy, or whatever archy he or she is holding onto. So can you start railing against your work archy so that we can check if you are consistent or not?
I work in partnership with my dean.
Why do you cling to domination over partnership relationships and ways of structuring society?
Why do you have a dean? Shouldn’t you just be a collection of individuals autonomously doing whatever you like, singing kumbaya?
You have a dean to direct you what to do right? You don’t just wake up every morning and autonomously decide to do whatever you want. If you do, I would put it down to you living in ivory tower of academia, completely removed from any semblance of reality.
The dean doesn’t tell me what to do. The dean makes sure that scheduling is done, if there are problems between faculty members or between students and faculty the dean helps to work things out. We have different jobs and work in partnership.
Sometimes you do have hierarchies that are more hierarchal. But as I mentioned, Companies work better when workers actively think, can work autonomously, and contribute ideas to management. Sometimes people at the top of the hierarchy are there simply because they have good management skills. They are dominating everyone and ordering them around.
Studies have also shown that people are happiest when leaders worked in democratic ways, Collecting everyone’s opinion and having discussions with them before making decisions. That is working in partnership rather than dominating. You do need people in leadership positions and they are there for various reasons: they have good management skills, a lot of knowledge or talent in a particular area. But they don’t have to work in ways where others are submissive to them.
You still haven’t told me why you are so attached to domination over partnership structures and relationships.
“Companies work better when workers actively think, can work autonomously, and contribute ideas to management. Studies have also shown that people are happiest when leaders worked in democratic ways, Collecting everyone’s opinion and having discussions with them before making decisions. ”
So then, if there was a couple where the wife is permitted to “think”, to “contribute ideas to the man”, to do the house”work autonomously”, and whose opinion is sought prior to the man making a decision, you’d be perfectly happy with this as its not a submissive relationship? This is a partnership, and no patriarchy to be seen here?
“You still haven’t told me why you are so attached to domination over partnership structures and relationships.”
Because I don’t like telling other people how they should live their lives. If a particular arrangements suits other people, who am I to tell them they’ve got it all wrong? You haven’t lived their life, so you don’t know everything about how other people think.
If there was a couple where the wife and husband both thought, contributed ideas, to did the housework autonomously, and who sought out each other’s opinions prior to making a decision, I’d be perfectly happy with this. This is a healthy partnership.
What we know about partnership versus domination cultures is that people are much happier in partnership cultures. Everyone is. That’s why I promote it. You seem to favor domination cultures and you don’t come across as being very happy.
Yeah, you’ve handily sidestepped the point, which is that you contribute ideas to your dean who is your management superior, and he/she asks for ideas before making a decision which you submit to. So your live your life in a submission situation, and pretend you don’t. No matter how touchingly consultative your boss is, at the end of the day you submit. And that’s even taking into account you live in a detached from reality academic environment, instead of the real world, where people, for example, spray the underside of Chevies with anti-rust, and they need to do it the way they have been told to do it.
I can’t think of one instance where this is true: you contribute ideas to your dean who is your management superior, and he/she asks for ideas before making a decision which you submit to.
Why do you, personally, promote domination culture? Most people aren’t at the top, so I doubt you are. As such, you’re hurt more than helped by it.
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised what goes on in the ivory towers of academia. You’re not required to produce anything of substance, your performance can’t be objectively measured, therefore the dean doesn’t care what you do or how you do it. One outcome is as good as any other outcome. Nobody is killed if you do one thing or another. No more money is lost by doing one thing rather than another. You debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and the dean is happy whichever answer comes out.
HOWEVER, the real world isn’t like that. Money is lost, companies go broke, countries go to war, and people die if the wrong answer is implemented. That means people debate hard over real issues, and after they debate, some leader makes a decision.
And unless you’re very lucky to be married to someone totally on the same wavelength all the time (such couples exist but are rare), then someone ends up having to make a decision, and it’s often not the decision the other person would have made. Then someone has to submit to the other one, or else you split up. Welcome to reality.
Nope. The difference is that we have different skills and jobs.
I have a PhD in sociology with a focus on social psychology and gender. My dean does not have that background and asked such is not qualified to construct the classes I teach or tell me how to teach them. He is not qualified to critique any articles I write.
His job is to ask what classes we would like to teach and when we would like to teach them and work as a go-between when there is conflict.
And when it comes to marriage decisions we usually are on the same wavelength but when we don’t agree we first try to convince each other, and if that doesn’t work we take turns on who decides.
I’m still not clear on why you personally are attached to a domination instead of partnership mindset.
” He is not qualified to critique any articles I write.”
In other words, unlike pretty much every other profession, your boss is not only disinterested in your performance, he isn’t even qualified to assess your performance. Thus he is hardly in a position to be in dispute with you on any topic. I find that odd, even for academia, but as I said, ivory towers. The aim of academia is to so ensconce themselves in the air of being high priests and priestesses that nobody dare challenge their authority, meanwhile the tuition fees keep rolling in.
Actually, I suspect your dean is quite capable of critiquing your articles, as is every able minded human being. I’m reminded of my weekend. I replaced the fuel filter on my car. Now traditionally, I never delve into the magic that happens beneath my hood, but on this occasion I decided to give it a shot. Watched a 2 minute youtube video, and 3 bolts later, the filter was out, and the new one in, and $100 saved, not to mention the hassle of taking it to somebody. Now why is he not qualified to critique your work again? Only the same reason you don’t replace your fuel filter, when you imagine that there is some magic going on that one dare not look into, or can’t be bothered looking into. And why should he? He gets paid the same no matter what you write, even if it’s bordering on nonsense. https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/ ” In fact, one of our papers was accepted to SCI 2005!”
We do have peer reviews, where the staff review each other. Sociologists review other sociologists, for instance. Same with things we write. Sociologists do a peer review of other sociology work.
Peers are equals.
“Sociologists review other sociologists”
Thus lacking any insights that other disciplines might bring to debunking your closed world.
I’m reminded of a course I did at university where part of the question involved a hypothetical scenario, and I could just see what the teacher was wanting us to conclude. However I concluded the opposite deliberately, because I could see that what she wanted us to conclude was a statistically invalid conclusion based on the available evidence. She gave me a bad mark, and I had to go back to her office to spend half an hour explaining to her why the answer she wanted was statistically an invalid conclusion, which I did eventually convince her of. Of course, she wasn’t trying to teach statistics, she was trying to teach something else, but she chose to mark me down based on her ideas of statistics.
Maybe by now you’ve read some of the links I sent you, and you will see that sociology is very involved with other disciplines. Not only do we critique biological studies, but there is actually a sociology of: science, medicine, neuroscience… (on that last one, there are sociologists who specialize in neuroscience).
Sociologists are fascinated by how culture can affect how scientists see/perceive things.
And the “Fundamental attribution error”: people attribute cause to what appears to be obvious — like a biological difference — because they don’t see the invisible things that actually created the situation, like culture/socialization/social structures.
Being “involved with” other disciplines is not the same as subjecting your papers to the rigorous review of other disciplines. And you just told me that your dean wouldn’t dare review your work because he is not a sociologist.
Your proposal makes no sense. How can someone with no expertise in an area judge someone else’s expertise?
“How can someone with no expertise in an area judge someone else’s expertise?”
I already told you. When I was at university I was asked to write a paper on a topic (not statistics) based in part upon the premise of some given statistics. As someone familiar with statistics I challenged the statistical foundation of the premise of the question.
You’re always quoting statistics here, but you’re not a statistician. I presume you write papers citing statistics. Without being peer reviewed by a statistician, you could be flat out wrong.
So how does a physicist do a peer review on a biologist? Or how does a historian do a peer review on a sociologist? How does a psychologist do appear review on a botanist?
What you’re talking about is completely different. Anyone can do statistics.
“So how does a physicist do a peer review on a biologist?”
I’ve heard theories that various sub-atomic effects can have an effect on the duplication of DNA in living creatures. So a physicist does peer review by applying his own expertise to any areas that seems to impact on his areas.
Also, physicists tend to be smart people who can see logical flaws in papers of any persuasion.
“Or how does a historian do a peer review on a sociologist?”
I would have thought history and sociology are closely related. Is not the history of society very important to the study of sociology? Do you not here often refer to what other historical societies did?
“How does a psychologist do appear review on a botanist?”
Some psychologists have detailed knowledge of cellular mechanisms that could be brought to bear on cellular mechanisms of plants.
“What you’re talking about is completely different. Anyone can do statistics.”
Anyone can do sociology. In fact, we all have to do it to be in society.
The adage “there are lies, damned lies and statistics” exists precisely because statistics are one of the most abused areas of study, and one of the most misunderstood. If statistics are so easy, how come that professor of mine made an elementary logical mistake regarding them?
I once worked in a government department and I had to frequently guide the decision makers away from a misguided interpretation of statistics towards a more thoughtful consideration of what the data means. And I wasn’t even the staff statistician. The staff statistician would churn out any average or mean or standard deviation you asked him to, but wouldn’t be able to guide anyone about which data was appropriate to input into that procedure, or what the results really meant.
Read my “about” Page and you should see that I study things that historians are clueless about. In fact, a lot of macro sociologists are clueless about micro sociology (Social psychology). It’s a completely different paradigm than Society normally recognizes. When I had my first sociological social psychology class I kept getting D’s on the quizzes until I got the paradigm — I had to make a paradigm shift to get it. Once I got it I was fascinated. But graduate students in macro sociology (the study of social structures and social patterns) would sometimes sit in the micro sociology classes and just be completely confused. As people often are at first exposure.
Don’t assume that because something doesn’t happen in real life as often as in porn that it is therefore something weird. I dare say 98% of “real” sex in missionary position, because its easy, but women get as bored with that whole scene as men.”
I didn’t say porn is weird, well there ca be weird stuff from the fetish side of porn. But I said I understand how mainstream porn can seem demeaning. Like georgia has said, it wasn’t always that way. 70s or 80s porn was different than now and it might be due to such access to porn now that producers turn things up a notch and make it more aggressive and explicit to keep viewers.
“Umm, yes they are. Seek out some of that reality porn, whether real couples or filming hookers or whatever. They are mostly quite submissive.”
And this brings up my point. I don’t know what porn you’ve seen, but the few porn I watch is that reality porn or what’s called amateur porn and there is a difference. The porn actresses are fucked harder and more submissive and cummed on their faces in mainstream porn whereas, actually women are not as submissive in amateur porn and more often than mainstream porn to be in control or take control or be aggressive. Because it’s real sex and not exaggerating which can come from mainstream porn.
“Wrong, it’s mostly the male that does the thrusting, therefore the male tends to choose a position that makes that convenient for him. Furthermore, it tends to be the male who initiates the sex act, and it is the male who ends the sex act. Now you can argue all you want that this isn’t always the case and so forth, but in all cultures its mostly the case, like >90% the case, if not more, so you’d be arguing against reality.”
Not from just my experience but ask anybody or even any survey or whatever. Woman on top is just about as common as missionary or a position used as much as doggy and missionary. So that’s my point, and refuting against the male mostly or most often doing the thrusting, etc. That’s not the case and you would even see men who say favorite position is woman on top. Real life it’s not so one sided like you think and there is plenty of evidence to prove that.
“So you claim, but the entire premise of this blog article is that porn catering to men is obsessed with dominant themes.”
But it’s not inherent or to the extent it is. If men were inherently desiring to be dominant much more than women, than their sex fantasies would be lopsided to women, but they are not.
“I said I understand how mainstream porn can seem demeaning.”
Everything seems demeaning to somebody.
“The porn actresses are fucked harder and more submissive and cummed on their faces in mainstream porn whereas, actually women are not as submissive in amateur porn”
I think the amateur porn you are talking about is sex maniacs / exhibitionists who are not average, and in any case are somehow doing it for money. In real amateur porn, where the girl wasn’t even expecting to be on film they are extremely submissive. Of course they are not “fucked as hard” as you put it as what happens in some theatrical Los Angeles hard porn production. But they are passive. The man decides which position is going to happen at any time.
“Woman on top is just about as common as missionary or a position used as much as doggy and missionary.”
I doubt that, the numbers I’ve seen is at most it is 25%, but that misses the point. Even when the woman is on top it’s usually because the man put her there, and it might even still be the man thrusting. I’m not saying no woman does anything in the bedroom, but the average woman is quite passive about what is going on.
“If men were inherently desiring to be dominant much more than women, than their sex fantasies would be lopsided to women, but they are not.”
But you’re arguing 2 contrary positions. The entire premise of this article is that porn for men (and porn is men’s fantasies to the extent it is popular), is male dominant themed. You seem to be at once agreeing with that proposition and then arguing that men don’t fantasise any more than woman about dominant themes! Go look at porn popular with women, then porn popular with men, and see if female catering porn has much female dominant themes. There won’t be much, it will be a niche at best.
Bob — you mean surveys finding that men are about as likely as women to fantasize about being dominated?
I think the amateur porn you are talking about is sex maniacs / exhibitionists who are not average, and in any case are somehow doing it for money. In real amateur porn, where the girl wasn’t even expecting to be on film they are extremely submissive.”
They probably most likely are exhibitionists as people who like to film themselves having sex most likely have to be. And that isn’t true, I think there’s something that’s voyeur that’s part of amateur porn and that’s something where it’s like that and the woman can be in control or on top just as much. I don’t watch much of it, but the times that I have, it was amatuer and you said not real amateur porn. The streaming free sites can have a mix of mainstream and amatuer, but I’m pretty sure if you ever heard of pornhub and xhamster, those have amateur porn, so I don’t know how much more real you can have and I think they are very popular porn sites.
“But you’re arguing 2 contrary positions. The entire premise of this article is that porn for men (and porn is men’s fantasies to the extent it is popular), is male dominant themed. You seem to be at once agreeing with that proposition and then arguing that men don’t fantasise any more than woman about dominant themes! Go look at porn popular with women, then porn popular with men, and see if female catering porn has much female dominant themes. There won’t be much, it will be a niche at best.”
I don’t think the premise of the article is that it;s male dominant themed, but the way it is male dominant themed. I don;t think people have a problem if porn is or mainstream porn is male dominant. As 70s and 80s porn was, but it was more regular sex. Since then, things have been amped up with facials, double penetration, a girl gagging on a dude with a huge dick, anal, I know this one term from friends because it’s gross but it’s such a guy thing to bring up. But there’s something called bukkake, I won’t bring it up. This stuff wasn’t nearly as focused on or brought up or this extent. Things since recent times have been amped up. Then the voyeor one where it’s like stalking and I’ve seen ads pop up where the dude basically was like lifting a very petite woman and he was like bodybuilder sized and he basically had her what looked like in a full nelson, her picked up and her bent up like a pretzel and just drilling her hard with his huge dick. I mean come on.
This stuff was not nearly as common or often in old school porn like georgia even said, porn wasn’t like that in the 70s or 80s, You seem to not realize that this does not mean that these men are more dominant too. Like I was saying porn is not the same as real life so men can get accustomed to want or watch male dominaint porn that’s highly aggressive and rough, but actually have sex with his gf that she’s on top just as much as him. And that’s why I brought up with how people have sex and what they want vs what is viewed. You do realize that female catering porn. First women internalize our culture so they can want what harms them or learn this. Go check one of georgias post in relation to 50 shades of grey. And much much more men watch porn vs women. So the percentage of men who watch porn is a high number wheras women watching porn and even female catered porn is a small percentage. So that sample size for women watching this male dominant porn is small and it doesn’t prove much since most women don’t watch porn or very seldomly. So you can have women who might be more dominant or aggressive be part of that percentage that doesn’t even watch porn or very rarely.
Absolutely agree. I just tried to recall whether I have seen any pornographic films where women have not been shown like that you have stated, and, I failed to come up with a single one!
Thanks for your input on that. 🙂
Russia just banned some porn sites with the official statement being “Go out and meet someone in real life”
I like the sentiment in that quote!
The problem with that is, it’s not so clear cut. Obviously guys should not be stuck on porn even though I think many or most guys even if not stuck on porn, watch quite a bit or have a porn stash. Society and out culture sets it up to why so many men watch porn and also why some men are hesitant in meeting someone in reallife. Or well going out in real life, but not approaching women, which leads to loneliness, but a man will still be horny and well, porn will be his release. And this doesn’t help because it can cause resentment or resentment from guys when they see or hear people say “go out and meet someone in reallife”. Remember that video I posed to you of those guys they met that pick up artist guy to help themselves with women?
There can be frustration, but then such comments doesn’t help, because a man could resent that comment or thought in the sense they are thinking “you don’t think I am or don’t want to?” Go out and meet someone can be like a person tells another person who is dyslexic that they just have to read 20 pages, that’s all. The could be irritating, because the fact of the dyslexic person’s struggles is already not fun for the persons ego, but now someone who is not having a problem reading those pages is saying that. That would or could be quite irritating I’d think, because the dyslexic person is feeling it’s being rubbed in their face. Salt to the wound I’d say, which would cause more anger. But there’s more I want to say in next post, I’ll try to keep it short.
But going back to my point. So you have that, but also the fixation to porn or men will still go to porn or try to even if sites are down. And even if they are going out is because many reason. First I brought up the guy’s not doing so well, well yeah they will go to porn because if they aren’t meeting women too often, either too nervous to approach or maybe awkward and just not doing well. But then there’s that urge, well that’s what they are going to go to. But then you can have guys who do decent or even well who could still go to porn a decent amount, because of how our culture with women’s bodies sexualized, and most men still have to work to get dates and approach and so I believe you have many guys if not most in a constant state of arousal. So sex drives ramped up or spiked and where even a guy getting laid fairly regularly, it’s not enough sex for him or still wants a release for times he’s not with a girl, because of in a constant state or arousal. And even if a man has a gf where you’d say there would be more regular sex.
But with what you’ve said with shaming and women’s sexuality repressed many women can be not interested in frequent sex or it wanes. But the man is still desiring it a lot, so well what’s he going to? Porn. If women’s bodies were less sexualized, it would be normalized and women would be less fixated on body parts and sex, so wouldn’t be in a constant state of arousal which leads to the hunger of porn as it creates a strong urge and the desire to have such release. So you have women’s bodies sexualized but then culture where women don’t pursue men or maybe more hesitant or selective. So which basically creates the sitatuation of men wanting sex much more than women usually and sex drive amped up, but struggling to get dates or sex because of how women are with gender roles are still a big more passive or selective, so guy’s are horny as hell, but not getting much sex or what matches their sex drive which sexualized bodies in ads, tv, internet amps up. Pretty much you have guys walking around and though they can have that release from their mind (spank bank), men like visuals and would want something that could speed things up for their pleasure which is why I think porn is used often for masturbation. I think the porn industry would decline big time if women’s bodies became normalized and women were not slut shamed anymore as well as encouraged to be more proactive with dating and dating roles dropped or loosened. Because then men would not be in a constant state or arousal or be obsessed with women’s bodies, but also women would be probably part of more intiative with meeting guys, so more guys meeting women, dating and having sex with women. There would be much less desire and need for men to go to porn as a result. Until that happens, things won’t change though.
No matter how the porn industry is trying to sell it as harmless and even good for you, the very truth is that porn can have the same results in the brain as drugs do. There is a site “your brain on porn” with scientific studies and medical examinations about the effects of porn on the brain.
The easy access to porn via Internet is surely to make things worse affecting more and more people but fortunately there is this “movement” shall I say, that’s about people quitting porn. It’s growing and it’s called “no pmo” or “rebooting”. There are sites with people saying their stories about how their lives change after they quit porn.
Thanks. I’ll have to look into this more.
Porn on the brain is the same as sex on the brain. There’s some movement of people who abandon sex altogether too because it supposedly makes them think clearer. I don’t think we should take too seriously the idea that sex has an effect on the brain. It’s supposed to!
How you do sex — or anything — affects the brain. But some things have more positive effects than others.
Porn on the brain and particularly Internet porn causes severe damaging alterations to the brain. It has nothing to do with how sex effects the brain.
Once upon a time tobacco companies were saying that smoking isn’t that bad
Or food industries were saying that sugar isn’t that bad
As a woman, I have to admit to watching porn occasionally. It’s mostly curiousity and sometimes I do get ideas to try with my boyfriend. As a physical therapy assistant I can tell you that many of the petite slim bodied women that have large breasts in those videos have had breast augmentation and, interestingly, also some of the bigger boned women.
Although I agree with you that much of porn is degrading to women and most definitely geared toward men, you can find porn for women. Porn is diverse and key word searches will bring you to many different body types, ages, acts, etc.
I believe taken in small doses porn is harmless and may even enhance your sex life. However, it seems also to be highly addictive to some men and in some cases women, affecting their sex lives in a negative way.
Thanks for your insights. 🙂
Porn is diverse and key word searches will bring you to many different body types, ages, acts, etc.”
I think what the OP was talking about and what many are when talking about porn and it being degrading and such. Is mainstream porn. That’s what I was talking about and made a distinction with. Like there’s a mainstream porn site called bangbros or stuff like that and it’s what I talked about and what the OP was talking about too I believe. Mainstream porn is with the porn actors and actresses, some that became famous and some now I think that might be known. The streaming porn sites depending on the ones, can be mixed with the mainstream porn and amateur porn. If it takes you to many diffferent body types, chances are it is amateur porn.
I guess those sex guide things can be technically called porn, though I’d say it’s more soft core porn. So yeah not all porn, but what the OP was talking about and I am are mainstream porn. The stuff she was talking about is stuff that is almist always in mainstream porn, to a redundant point whereas, not often or much, much less than mainstream porn.
Bob, I agree.
Instead of automatically jumping to the conclusion that the porn is somehow to blame for something or other, why not recognise that it is just a mirror for human psychology? What you are effectively saying is, look this is genuine human psychology, but I dont like it.
“For instance, the women were are often put in vulnerable positions that indicated inferiority. The usual sexual positions included man on top, woman on top, “doggy style” where the woman was posed on her hands and knees or her stomach, or side by side.”
I don’t get it, are you claiming that man on top and woman on top are both vulnerable positions for the woman?
“In a majority of the videos (7 of 10) the woman was on her knees, mouth wide open, while the man ejaculated onto her face or into her mouth. This is an obvious sign of disrespect”
In all seriousness, I don’t understand this comment. This seems to me an obvious case of you taking your person feelings and pushing them onto humanity. What if I made a similar comment about gay people, that their practices are “obviously degrading”? There would be an outcry. The simple fact that so many videos feature this position makes me think you just just don’t like human psychology.
“Nearly half of the videos began with the premise of a stepbrother or stepfather spying on a woman, or a woman and her group of friends.”
I’ve seen a lot of these videos, and I have to ask how you know they are stepbrothers/fathers because it’s extremely rare on pornhub to see a video with any kind of genuine dialogue or story line sophisticated enough to know something like that.
But let’s take the issue of spying on girls, before sex eventuating. Instead of saying those naughty people, why don’t you think about what that says about normal human sexuality. What would happen in a tribal situation? You’d have a village or tribe, a woman would be doing whatever in the forest. A man would be doing his thing, and come across her. Naturally, he’d watch her a while, because its fun. Then he’s approach her, and.. hopefully, sex would eventuate. That seems plausible to me how life would work. Certainly that’s how it works for animals, a male comes along, notices a female etc etc. Why normal biology is disturbing to you, I have no idea. In nature and primitive society there is no such thing as “privacy”. That’s an artificial construct of the modern world.
“In one video, the woman was dressed as a maid who spoke solely in Spanish while her partner spoke mainly in English. ”
Strange, the whole sex with the maid thing seemed a fairly rare scenario in modern porn to me. But instead of saying those naughty people, why not just ask what it says about humanity and the society who produced it? I presume it’s a reflection of actual reality in America that a lot of maids are latina, and that the men who employ them are harbouring fantasies about them. Your real complaint ought to be that there are a lot of Latina maids in reality, and from there the obvious result is that their employers are fantasising about them and playing it out on porn. No surprises there.
“Lastly, pornography creates unrealistic beauty ideals. All 10 videos showed women with the same body type: young, slim waist, large breasts”
In a primitive society, everyone is walking around naked, and therefore the men have the choice of who they ogle, and there would be always a choice of all shapes, sizes and ages. Your observation indicates to me that men in primitive society would do the same thing, ogle the young, slim, big breasted ones. Apparently that is natural. And in a primitive society you’d have the ability to do that all day long to your heart’s content. Why don’t you like human psychology?
In Real life people don’t behave this way much. And in gender-equal societies, even less so. So this clearly doesn’t reflect human psychology.
Pornography is not a mirror of human psychology, Except in this respect: psychology reflects culture. And we have a culture that is male dominant, yet in retreat from male dominance at the same time. And we have a culture that is so drenched in pornography that guys need edgier things to get going. See my response to Bob’s comment.
Some of your questions can be answered by reading Bob’s comment.
When it comes to your last point, what’s considered attractive varies a lot from culture to culture. Parts of West Africa today prefer obese women. Without obesity and implants the average breast size is a B cup in the US and an A cup in Japan. If huge breasts were naturally more attractive then men would have mated more with Women like that and those women would have been more successful reproducers and supersized would be average today. In some societies there is actually no preference for any particular female body type, like with the African Kung.
“And in gender-equal societies, even less so.”
They don’t behave which way? Looking at girls doing their own thing? Looking at young girls in preference to old ones? Be specific.
“Pornography is not a mirror of human psychology”
Proof? Oh how wonderful it is to dictate reality from on high.
“When it comes to your last point, what’s considered attractive varies a lot from culture to culture.”
You’re assuming it’s cultural and not genetic. I’ve noticed a lot of people making the comment that black men like women with big butts. Black women often have big butts. Maybe it’s cultural, but maybe it’s genetic. At the end of the day, who cares? A generation ago, people wanted to say that gay people have been corrupted in their desires and need to be corrected. Now you represent a new generation of sex-o-phobes who think that men who are attracted to young and thin or latinas or maids or whatever have corrupted thinking and need “correcting”. By what logic or standard can you say gay people don’t need correcting, but most men do? I take it that it is most men, since your standard of wrongness is the most common fantasies on pornhub.
“Some of your questions can be answered by reading Bob’s comment.”
Oh the absurdity of claiming that both woman on top AND man on top AND on side are all degrading to women!! Are there any other options!
My specialty is social psychology. And it turns out that most of our psychology is social. Humans have very few instincts. That gives them more ability to choose and change. Human beings are born with their brains half formed, And their environments help to construct their brains. I gave you some examples of the social construction in terms of different cultures having different ideas of what’s attractive and also the fact that what you see on porn isn’t what people usually do in real life. And in some cultures don’t do it all. And Bob’s comment actually does make sense.
But I repeat myself.
In the future if I have already answered a question I won’t post the same questions and answer them again.
“human beings are born with their brains half formed”
I can tell you for sure that men who encounter porn after their brain is fully formed have the same tastes in porn as everyone else. If you’re a real social psychologist and not a pop psychologist, you’ll be able to draw the obvious conclusions from that. If people were so in control of their instincts in this matter, you wouldn’t find church pastors indulging in all the porn discussed here. You do see it, and you see it all the time, and it’s not because they wouldn’t like to “choose” otherwise. They just can’t.
The brain changes all the time in response to its environment, social and otherwise. Studies suggest that who we are is about half biology and half culture. And it’s true that once culture affects brain wiring it’s not necessarily an easy thing to change. And yet changes do come about, like men losing interest in breasts from overexposure. Or developing an interest in breasts in the first place in one culture, but not in another. And a variety of other things, too.
“Studies suggest that who we are is about half biology and half culture.”
Do you really think some other hypothetical culture, left to their own devices with no influence from us, would develop different porn to what is now available? I think that’s ridiculous, but if true, there’s millions of dollars waiting for you in a job manufacturing this novel porn which nobody else thought of.
Even in our culture didn’t have the porn we have now years ago. So yeah.
For instance, the women were are often put in vulnerable positions that indicated inferiority. The usual sexual positions included man on top, woman on top, “doggy style” where the woman was posed on her hands and knees or her stomach, or side by side.”
At first I would question “vulnerable positions” when she included women on top, since that’s usually a position where a woman is in control. But having seen mainstream porn before or ads come up before. I know what she’s talking about. The positions are even if the woman is on top, it;s where she’s positioned legs up or in a way where she’s still like in a submissive state. Or I’ve noticed and why I don’t watch mainstream porn is it’s degrading on women, fake and always or mostly submissive for the woman.Like I get what she says vulnerable, because also even if the woman is on top for mainstream porn, her face, reactions, body position, hands, everything is like submissive. Even though she’s riding, she’s still acting in a submissive state whereas the male is stoic and in control and it’s like what’s the point of watching her be in control when she’s as submissve acting as she is in doggy or missionary?
And some of it can be brutal too, where the women are picked up, rag dolled, folded like a pretzel and fucked hard with a guy with a huge dick. And then to relay what she said about the fellatio and ejaculating on the face thing. I’ve noticed too, how the female is to act submissive during fellatio too. I call it “doe eyes”, the woman when giving a blow job looks right at the camera with this like submissive stare to the camera and submissve eye look from below up to the guy. Even if you haven’t see it, you might have a feeling what I’m talking about if thinking about it. It’s like “I’m your sex slave, do whatever you want to me eyes” “or yes master am I doing this right? eyes” either toward the camera or up to the guy. But like this is regular mainstream porn and not some BDSM stuff, but regardless the female usually has that look whether getting a facial or when blowing a guy.
But like where is this coming from? Like are just top male producers just more sexist than a normal decent man? Like why is all or most porn like this and why do they feel to have women submissive in it? To have that urge to have women submissive so much, seems like there has to be a deep rooted sexism from porn producers or hate toward women or something and this is their way of metaphocially showing how men are the dominant ones and it displayed through sex via mainstream porn. The reason I say this is because real life sex between couples isn’t like this and it’s not men dominating and women submissive but somewhat better well rounded where women can be dominant or in control. But mainstream porn on the other hand its pretty lopsided with how women are degraded and submissive. Like the fact that sex isns’t like porn sex shows many men don’t feel this way that porn producers do to have women fucked like they are in the films. To point this out, there’s a reason there is a difference with amateur porn to some extent where it’s not facials and stuff and not degrading and more balanced with how men and women have sex. Mainstream porn is boring as hell.
You make some really interesting points here:
“At first I would question “vulnerable positions” when she included women on top, since that’s usually a position where a woman is in control. But having seen mainstream porn before or ads come up before. I know what she’s talking about. The positions are even if the woman is on top, it;s where she’s positioned legs up or in a way where she’s still like in a submissive state. Or I’ve noticed and why I don’t watch mainstream porn is it’s degrading on women, fake and always or mostly submissive for the woman.Like I get what she says vulnerable, because also even if the woman is on top for mainstream porn, her face, reactions, body position, hands, everything is like submissive. Even though she’s riding, she’s still acting in a submissive state whereas the male is stoic and in control and it’s like what’s the point of watching her be in control when she’s as submissve acting as she is in doggy or missionary?”
And then you ask “But like where is this coming from? Like are just top male producers just more sexist”
I don’t know the complete answer to this question but I know part of it. If you look at the history of pornography it used to be fairly mild until the Internet came along. And then guy saw so many breasts and bottoms that they were arousing like they used to be. So they up the ante, doing things that are more edgy and more like a breach of societal norms. Maybe because we are growing more feminist as a society the domination of women continually feels like a breach? Like you’re doing something taboo, And Breaking taboos can feel exciting.
“Or I’ve noticed and why I don’t watch mainstream porn is it’s degrading on women, fake and always or mostly submissive for the woman.”
Errrm, in case you missed taking part in reality, most women ARE fairly submissive in the sack. You are going to argue this is wrong or something, but look at the animal kingdom. Females are more submissive in the sex act, that’s biological reality.
As for degrading, I challenged our host here to prove the sex acts described are degrading, and she declined to take up that challenge. Who is to say what acts are degrading?
I mean, if gay men watch porn with the same sex acts (which they do), is that by extension degrading to men? That doesn’t even make sense does it? You just want to overlay your preferences onto everyone else, which is the definition of phobia. If you want to say that the sex acts favoured by most men are degrading, then I should be able to publicly say that the sex acts of gay men are disgusting and degrading. Makes sense right?
As for being fake, I mean it is cinema, Casablanca is fake too. But I’ve seen plenty of porn where the same acts are definitely not fake, or for that matter real women.
“I call it “doe eyes”, the woman when giving a blow job looks right at the camera with this like submissive stare to the camera and submissve eye look from below up to the guy.”
Women all over the world who are well experienced in being with men will do this in real life. They do it for you because they know men like it. Again, you don’t like male psychology, whatever, perhaps you can find a new reality of pixieland.
Women I have been with don’t do the doe eyes, because they have their own sexual agency. They are so into the act itself or into it, and confident in themselves that they aren’t trying to put on an act or thinking of giving the eyes to please. When that happens, it’s not genuine and the person doing it is putting more emphasis on their act and how they are perceived than actually their mind and lust fully into the sex. I like women who are confident in their sexuality and aren’t doing something because I like it, as if it’s all about that, she might not genuinely be into as much as you think. Guys I know like women who enjoy themselves and are doing things because they are really into it, and not because their man likes it simply. Many women will as georgia posted about girls and women having their arousal and enjoyment affected because of how clouded their thoughts can be about their look or performance.
If you want to say that the sex acts favoured by most men are degrading, ”
If the sex acts are favored by men, then they would be reenacted as much or like that in real life. Many guys aren’t interested in having sex like in porn and such like that. So that’s not exactly true. Guys watch that stuff like that, because that’s what they are used to and trained to want to see. If your a teenage boy at a young age and you see porn and it’s guys banging women. That;s a turn on, you get used to seeing it that way or turned on by that. You get adjusted to it and maybe then want more aggressive stuff or that’s what you see, so that’s what you want or get accustomed to.
“Errrm, in case you missed taking part in reality, most women ARE fairly submissive in the sack. You are going to argue this is wrong or something, but look at the animal kingdom. Females are more submissive in the sex act, that’s biological reality.”
Women can have a submissive part but they aren’t as submissve as depicted in mainstream porn. If that were the case most would want sex that way, but they don’t. And part of this or much could be due to culture, because georgia could even post a link to show you. Even with being hierarchal and dominance nature and men taught to be more aggressive and women more nurturing. Despite all that, you would think it should be lopsided with fantasy desires, but it’s not. The difference isn’t that big with dominance and submission fantasies. If women are inherently more submissive than they should be lopsided as in the percentage of men fantasizing of dominating a woman would be much, much more than a woman having a fantasy of dominating a man. And men would be a very low percentage and women very high. But if you at the percentages, they are not that far off. Men do desire more so to be dominant, but not by a huge margin and the same for submission fantasy.
“but look at the animal kingdom. Females are more submissive in the sex act, that’s biological reality.”
True but women aren’t animals and humans don’t operate on just instincts like animals, which is why there’s more a submission from female animals. Plus the fact of how humans are the only animals that can stand up so body formation isn;t different too. That has to play a role also in the difference. As well as body formation. Since women, and humans can stand up and be upright, sex can be done in different positions other than doggy style and enables women to be active in sex, unlike female animals right?
Bob, personally I don’t think you understand the female brain. Females like to do the “doe eyes” BECAUSE they have sexual agency. The greatest protagonist of doe eyes of all time was Marilyn Monroe, and she was the greatest icon of the era. As long as men find doe eyes attractive, women will do it, and when they do it like Marilyn, men elevate them on a pedestal.
Don’t assume that because something doesn’t happen in real life as often as in porn that it is therefore something weird. I dare say 98% of “real” sex in missionary position, because its easy, but women get as bored with that whole scene as men.
“Women can have a submissive part but they aren’t as submissve as depicted in mainstream porn.”
Umm, yes they are. Seek out some of that reality porn, whether real couples or filming hookers or whatever. They are mostly quite submissive.
“The difference isn’t that big with dominance and submission fantasies.”
So you claim, but the entire premise of this blog article is that porn catering to men is obsessed with dominant themes.
And if you do seek out porn catering to females, you don’t find that kind of stuff much.
“True but women aren’t animals and humans don’t operate on just instincts like animals”
I reckon, when it comes to matters of this nature, humans are quite instinctual. That’s why a lot of women have the whole “bad boy” complex. Not thinking with their head but with instincts.
“Since women, and humans can stand up and be upright, sex can be done in different positions other than doggy style and enables women to be active in sex, unlike female animals right?”
Wrong, it’s mostly the male that does the thrusting, therefore the male tends to choose a position that makes that convenient for him. Furthermore, it tends to be the male who initiates the sex act, and it is the male who ends the sex act. Now you can argue all you want that this isn’t always the case and so forth, but in all cultures its mostly the case, like >90% the case, if not more, so you’d be arguing against reality.
I’m not sure whether you were responding to Bob or my student here, But Britney hasn’t written in. All I can say is that sexuality varies drastically from culture to culture. Until you get globalization, which is recent. Humans have hardly any instincts.
And remember high school when guys thought mean girls for the hot ones? It’s not just girls liking bad boys. Here’s some insight into that:
The Allure of Bad Boys (and mean girls)
Your argument that humans lack sexual instinct citing differences between cultures as evidence is self defeating. If cultures have different sexual practices, that just leads to pondering the question of whether it’s because we lack instincts and therefore culture filled the void or whether we have instincts but culture trumped them. You’re not going to be able to figure that out until you find a culture that lacks any cultural taboos and see what sexuality is there. The only place like that is the modern porn industry. And when we look at porn, we find certain tendencies which which you are lamenting as wrong and the result of cultural influence. Well I’m sorry, but if totally uninhibited modern porn is too influenced by external factors then you’ve totally thrown away any hope of distinguishing instinct from external factors. Your claim of knowing what parts of human sexuality is learned and which is instinct is therefore shown to be pure assertion, not fact.
Human beings have few instincts. Not no instincts.
So humans have an instinct to eat food. But what is consumed and how it is prepared varies quite a bit from culture to culture. Koreans love kimchi. That doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s the best food in the entire world. People in other cultures think differently.
Same with sex. There is an instinct to have sex but what is considered sexy varies a lot from place to place.
And scientists say that sugar and carbs hit a particular sensor deep in the brain. So Koreans might like kimchi (yuk!) but everyone is heavily effected by sugar. Now, is there a particular porn that only Koreans like? I don’t think so! Nobody’s parents bring them up on a diet of a particular type of porn. People discover it themselves, and tend to agree with other races on what they like irrespective of race or culture. I haven’t seen any stats that a particular genre of porn is spurned by particular cultures or races have you?
If you didn’t have the Internet and each country created their own porn then yes what Koreans like would probably differ from what Americans like. And in fact what Americans like in 2016 is different from what they liked in 1970
Very good job!!!! I am not a porn consumer. There are friends of mine who do use porn who would send me clips and images almost daily until I told then to stop. The ones I viewed were indeed as you stated.
I recently read a piece where a woman complained that years ago men once were obsessed with trying to manipulate her to allow them to cum inside her. Now, all they seem to want to do is cum on her face. She thinks this all has to do with the influence of men watching porn. Personally, I see women shaving their pubic hair off as another influence of porn. It seems that all women under 60 feel this is the thing to do. But, I wonder if women are doing this for themselves or for men?
New surveys and research now show that women are now viewing porn at a much higher levels than previously thought. While it is not as high a men, some estimates now show viewership in excess of 50%.
What really baffles me is why so many young women participate in porn, even though it is on a short term basis. A lot of these women are middle class and educated. Look at the young woman from Duke University who is a porn actress or the young woman from Columbia University…..what drives these women to do this? I ask the same question as to what drives similar women to become “sugar babies” and escorts.
Anyhow, like you I have always though that porn was largely a degrading portrayal of women. But, most feminist seem to embrace porn as empowering of female sexuality. Many feminists now even embrace “sex positive” porn. It seems like an oxymoron to me.
Yes, thanks to Brittany!
Interestingly, a lot of women watch porn to figure out what guys like, rather than watching it because they enjoy it. And since most of porn is directed to men that’s not surprising. But I asked my students whether they regularly watch porn and hardly any of the women said they did. And again, since most of porn is directed to men that’s not surprising.
From what I’ve read women can end up in porn because they go to Hollywood hoping to be a star, don’t get a job – unemployment in Hollywood is about 98%. So they are hoping to get some sort of stardom. But I also read that the average female porn star only makes three films because they can’t take more than that. And then prostitutes are sometimes forced into doing pornography, so it’s not their choice. Sugar babies seem to take that job because they see it as an easy way to make money to get through school and then do something they actually want to do.
I’ve heard that viewing pornography is almost always against the law but that’s only if it’s child pornography it’s against the law and to me, it’s not exactly an appropriate sex education tool as I’ve read in a couple of newspaper articles one in particular did to a 6-year-old-child there are stories about people who are addicted to viewing pornography I’ve said a couple of times because pornography is photos and a visual thing it’s something that wouldn’t even be considered by me and I’d never even view it even if I was alone for fear of being arrested for it maybe my way of thinking is a bit messed up or there are aspects of which that are true.
Porn can definitely mess people up. If they get addicted they can lose relationships and jobs and not even be able to “get it up” with real women. Some of my male students have given it up for that reason.
Child pornography has additional problems in forcing children into this line of work. And some men use pornography to “normalize” Child sex abuse to children. They will show children pictures and movies to make them think that it’s a normal thing to do.
One of the problems I see with pornography is a sense of entitlement – others exist for you, and the lack of empathy that arises.
Agreed .. pornography is for men where as Disney movies are for women . They both give wrong expectations. 😂😂😂😂😂
Funny and sad how porn and Disney can both be damaging to relationships.
Thought I offended you comparing both
No. I totally agree.
I wrote something similar about pornography and Twilight once. Well, the opening paragraph alludes to it https://broadblogs.com/2012/11/19/twilight-vs-porn/
And actually Disney can be damaging both in terms of expectations for A perfect prince charming and lowering girls expectations for their own life chances outside of marriage. Although Disney has changed quite a bit on that count: Frozen and Brave, for instance.
Well, I agree but porn can be way worse, depending on the porn .