Nice Guys Are A Turnoff?
A lot of guys complain that being nice kills off the feminine libido.
But that doesn’t make sense to me because I’m only attracted to nice guys. So are my friends.
And plenty of women are attracted to these nice guys:
Brad Pitt, Denzel Washington, George Clooney, Antonio Banderas, Ryan Gosling…
Okay, they’re all super-hot, which may overcome the downside of being nice?
Yet other Average-Joe’s aren’t movie star gorgeous and I still think they are sexy — and nice:
Economist, Paul Krugman, comedians Stephen Colbert and Seth Myers, astrophysicist and Cosmos host, Neil deGrasse Tyson…
If women liked bad boys instead of nice guys they’d be lined up for badass action flicks instead of lined up to watch Tom Hanks in Sleepless in Seattle.
And, women using Tinder often reject perfectly chiseled faces. Why? The guys are perceived as egotistical and unkind. Guys with softer jaws seem more compassionate. They want nice guys!
Still, plenty of men get turned down with declarations like,
You’re a nice guy, but…
That doesn’t mean he’s unattractive because he’s nice.
In fact, most women are drawn by men who are nice, confident — and who see “her” as irresistible. Plus some undefined je ne sais quoi that varies from woman to woman.
Meanwhile, some guys rage over how horrible women are because they don’t like nice guys — like them.
If you are raging, you are not nice.
Sure, some women are with men who aren’t nice (which leads to “confirmation bias” — we see what we expect to see):
- A few are indeed attracted to bad boys.
- Some are drawn to narcissists because, apparently, narcissists make more of an effort to “look good”.
- Others fall for men who power up the charm offensive only to later reveal their abusiveness. (Many women stay for a variety of reasons, maybe a fear of poverty or a hope that he will return to “Mr. Wonderful.”)
But the widespread belief that women don’t like nice guys can be dangerous, leading to misogyny and ill-treatment of women.
Unfortunately, not everyone we find attractive will find us attractive.
But fortunately, tastes vary.
And most women do like nice guys.
The Good Men Project reposted this piece.
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Posted on January 5, 2015, in men, psychology, relationships, sex and sexuality, women and tagged men, nice guys, psychology, relationships, sex and sexuality, women. Bookmark the permalink. 116 Comments.
A lot of my friends love the nice guys, including me. But some say they like a “challenge” which to them means a bad boy, something different. I mean I don’t blame them, just as long as they aren’t hurting my friend period.
In my opinion, I some what agree with this article because, I do notice that some girls really go for the “bad boys” or the “douche bags” (I am not emphasizing that every bad boy is a douche bag) In movies, the bad boys tend to be the really hot guys and tend to be players, douche bags and etc, the girls would always fall for the hot boys and completely be blind sided by the fact that the boy might be a player and there are better fish in the sea i.e the nice guy who has been wanting for a long time but rejected them because their “too nice” and also love is blind.
I am not saying that all women go for looks and skip to “I’m in love with you” type of love, but there are some women out there who do, do that. As for me, I like the nice guys a lot, I feel like the nice guys are the guys that will make you feel loved and not like poop, that will give you attention, instead of giving someone else their attention, that will care for you endlessly. Lets just say that nice guys are the best guys.
Yep! And like I said, Women were lined up around the block to watch Nice guy Tom Hanks in Sleepless in Seattle.
From being a man and a male’s perspective on this article, I would first say that I do believe that nice men can be a turn off to women. Only because it seems like if I am too nice towards women, when I am interested in them they don’t like me as much. It is unfortunate because I was raised to treat women right and to be polite. It seems like girls want you to have a jerk side to you sometimes, but at the same time be a nice guy. As it mentions in the article woman are not lined up to go watch action films to see the so called bad boy type. They would rather watch sleepless in Seattle with a nice guy like Tom Hanks in the film. But films are just fiction. I am not too sure women want guys like that in real life. There are some women who I do believe do really want a nice guy, big house white picket fence etc. I think the times have changed though and the new generation that I am apart of don’t care for the nice guy, married lifestyle so much. As I get older I have realized and come to learn that, if a woman or anyone for that matter doesn’t like me for who I am, then it’s not worth compromising my dignity and respect towards others.
A lot of guys think that women don’t like nice guys for the reason you gave: I’ve been nice to them and they haven’t liked me back.
Unfortunately, Nice isn’t enough in itself.
But nice isn’t a turn off either. As I think I mentioned in this post, All of my friends are married to nice guys– Me too. And if you look at all the heartthrobs: Brad Pitt, George Clooney… Or even Tom Hanks in Sleepless in Seattle — They seem really nice.
I think the nice guys just don’t get that Nice isn’t sufficient. Must be nice plus some other mysterious je ne sais quoi.
I felt the need to respond on this blog. When I was in high school I met a wonderful guy. He was a year older than me and he was really nice, but when he went to college and met new friends he slowly started to change. A year after we finished college we broke up, because he was not the same guy I fell in love with 6 years ago. He was really egocentric, was telling lies all the time, etc. Besides that I found out later that he was dating another girl for over a year, when he was still in a relationship with me.
Short after the brake up, I dated another guy for over 3 years, and he was just different. We had good times together, but also really horrible times, where he really was being the biggest ***. If you are treated like that in a relationship, you shouldn’t stay, so I walked away.
After that relationship I decided to be single for a while and dated a lot of guys that are the so called “Bad Boys”. Yes, it was fun, it was excited, but I never could see a future with these guys I dated. And I wouldn’t never introduce them to my parents.
For the long term I wanted somebody that I can rely on, that I can see as a good dad for my kids and a good partner, someone that listens to me and is there when I need him (and visa versa) Someone that is smart and can challenge me on an intellectual level, someone you can trust, … just a nice guy! Actually they are sometimes pretty hard to find. And to be honest that type of men does not kill the female libido.
I totally get it. Thanks for sharing.
I find this topic very interesting, I think every person has their own personal opinion and experiences that shape their answers, and it is very interesting to read through these responses. I don’t think it’s any secret that the typical “bad boy” gets more attention from young girls and women. From television and movies the lead female protagonist of any romantic show or movie is first attracted to the bad boy. He is seen as this ultimate goal, not exactly a real person. In almost all cliché movie endings, the girl realizes the bad boy is nothing but trouble and falls for her best guy friend, or the guy who was there all along. Who just always happens to be a nice guy. I agree with the article that level of attractiveness has an added bonus when going for a nice guy. Regardless of who it is, I personally think every female and male wants to be with a nice guy.
Something not included in this write up are the women who do indeed fall for nice guys who turn out to be a completely different person after some time passes. A friend of mine dated someone who was very nice, got along with all her friends and family and a person she could see a real future with. Then about six months after they started dating, he slowly began to change into a different person. He started lying about little things, like what time he had done something such as feed the dog; things that didn’t matter. Then the lies became larger, like where he had been on a given night. Eventually they progressed into why he took a thousand dollars out of her bank account. This “nice guy” ended up being a compulsive liar that had fooled her into thinking he was someone else entirely. When the relationship ended, he went to so far as to claim she had stolen money from him and ultimately made him attempt to take his own life. It was a very bad situation that had started as something so good…
Thanks for writing this point. I had mentioned the Point about how women think they have met a nice guy but he turns out not to be in these two points:
Some are drawn to narcissists because, apparently, narcissists make more of an effort to “look good”.
Others fall for men who power up the charm offensive only to later reveal their abusiveness. (Many women stay for a variety of reasons, maybe a fear of poverty or a hope that he will return to “Mr. Wonderful.”)
But thanks for adding another.
Society has built into us the image of masculinity: being chiseled face, having broad shoulders & a six-pack, the existence of facial hair, etc., hence, that rugged look. Some women tend to think that this image equates to manhood. The appearance of muscles on men excites women and understandably so, since fictional superheroes and real life heroes like firefighters are packed with muscles. On the other hand, nice and kind-looking men, clean cut, shaven, neat and tidy, are not sexy and therefore women tend to look the other way. Firefighters are not the only ones that do good. Doctors, IT professionals, engineers, also do so much to save the world, and yet, you don’t see them looking like firefighters. It is about time that we make movie characters out of these muscle-lacking, clean and nice-looking men and turn them into superheroes too. Who has the capability to stop identity theft, build infrastructures, or to perform surgeries and save lives? Not firefighters and definitely no Superman…
Well actually a lot of women find neat, clean cut guys attractive. I know I do. But there have been studies that have found that Women are more likely to swipe “No” with guys with chiseled features, As I mentioned in the blog post, Because they think they will be egotistical. And another study found that the preference for different types of looks depended on the culture. Scandinavians seem to go more for less macho looking men while Latin American women tend to go for the more rugged type. I’ll write more on that later.
I wonder where the idea that girls don’t like nice guys comes from. Perhaps it is partly to do with how strong of an impression the subliminal messages in advertisements movies and other forms of media make on the youth and society as a whole. Impressionableness and the inherently bad decisions that we all make when we are young combined with the awkwardness of letting someone down “easy” may give guys the impression early on that nice guys are do not get the girl. This is something that is difficult to disprove to young men because they may be valuing personal experience over facts. Also I think it is an easy scape goat to avoid deep self-evaluation at the end of a relationship.
Interesting thoughts. Thanks.
There is a common saying that is very close to this topic. That saying is “If men aren’t bad, women won’t like them.”. Another interesting word is even more closer to this topic, that is “Good Man Card” or “Nice Guy Card”. Because as you mentioned in this article, guys are often declined by these words, “You’re a nice guy, but…”. In China, we call it “I have received a good man card (or a nice guy card)”. Then these “nice guys” are starting to ask themselves what the heck are the “nice guys” and what’s wrong with “nice guys”. And the saying I mentioned before also reminds them of being a nice guy means losing attractions. But actually is it true that being nice caused they were rejected? Of course not. They were rejected just because they don’t understand women. Being nice isn’t a bad thing. But if a man are too nice and shows no passion to the women he’s pursuing, he may receive a nice guy card in the end. For example, if a man are too gentleman that he won’t touch his woman without asking for a permission, that is he will not give her a surprising kiss or hug, then the woman may doubt his love and feels no romance with him. That’s the reason why people in China says “If men aren’t bad, women won’t like them.”. The “bad” here probably means touching or kissing. All in all, I think being nice or “bad” doesn’t matter at all. What really matters to men is to understand what women really need, not just simply being nice.
When thinking about this I truly do believe that girls much rather date a guy who is nice to them and treats them with respect rather then someone who is a bad boy and treats them like crap. I personally believe that I am a nice guy because no matter who the person is I will treat them with respect and honor. Although there are many girls who love nice guys and prefer them over bad boys there are the occasional ones who will be rude to you and rag on you for being nice and kind. If anyone ever tries to laugh at you or even turn you down because you are nice I would turn to their face and simply thank them. I just want to make it clear that being nice isn’t something you do to try and get girls. Being nice is something that you live by your whole entire life. You should always treat everyone with equal respect and never try to act mean and rude just to impress someone. If a girl doesn’t want you cause you may not be attractive and you’re not a bad boy then it’s her loss. This article reassured me that I should never change my personality because there are girls out their who appreciate and respect it.
Yeah! The vast majority of us.i
Nice Guys Are A Turnoff?
“Meanwhile, some guys rage over how horrible women are because they don’t like nice guys — like them.
If you are raging, you are not nice.”
I am constantly amazed at how many guys seem to have this sense of entitlement, that they deserve love and sex simply because they’re “nice.” First of all, if you are being “nice” simply to get into somebody’s pants, that’s manipulative and the complete opposite of nice. Second, sex is a privilege and not a right. You do not deserve to get laid just because you bought dinner, or opened a door, or let them cry on your shoulder. If you’ve been “nice” to someone and they still don’t sleep with you, maybe it isn’t because they don’t like nice guys…maybe it’s because they just don’t like you!
The majority of my female friends (I am in my late 20’s and have friend ranging from their early 20’s to mid 30’s) are into people who are genuine, kind, and strike the right balance between treating everyone with respect and not letting themselves get walked all over or treated like garbage. My fiance, for example, is a loyal and honest man, who isn’t afraid to tell me if he disagrees with something I’ve said or done. On the other side of that, when he does disagree with me, he presents it in a way that is fair rather than childish or insulting. He’s not afraid to take charge, but can take the backseat on things just fine too. Of course everyone has different tastes, but I feel like those things are some examples of what women would believe to be an actually nice person.
All of this is to say that yes, if you are angry that someone will not sleep with you when you feel like you deserve it, then you are not a nice person. Bottom line.
I’ve had a large number of girlfriends tell me that they absolutely cannot stand dating a “too nice guy”. Their definition of that was a guy who basically says yes to everything, says things just because they think it will please you, and the main one (or at least I think it’s the main one!!) They don’t take the initiative to having sex. I have had some friends be in a really toxic relationship where you know there’s the yelling, controlling, but then there’s great sex and in that connection some sort of “bond” if you will. So when they meet a nice guy, they are already feeling awkward because they are not used to the feeling. Then comes the sex that’s not the same as coming from a more violent and strong minded person. I’ve heard this comment alot, ” a nice guy is not gonna pull my hair and do all the things that I love!”
But anyway that’s just some of my girlfriends opinions! I honestly believe that a nice guy can be just as good in bed as a bad boy if not better considering the fact that bad boys still have maturing to do!!. And can also teach you how to have a safe relationship away from toxicity. I think that if women were to be more educated about relationships and what to look for in a guy, then more of them would be saying they want a nice guy rather than a bad boy.
And then there are guys who are nice, But who can get into role playing in bed.
But yeah, I think when we define “Nice guy” as a wimp, And then say that women don’t like nice guys, it’s misleading and unhealthy.
“…..But who can get into role playing in bed.”
My experience (for what it is worth) is that women prefer rougher and dominant sex. Like Elizabeth said…Women do not like to have to teach a man. That’s why they like men who have slept with a lot of women. They are experienced and better at sex. Practice does make perfect.
As a woman commented on GMP, some people have more sexual capital than others. Let’s face it; bad boys have more than nice guys. Women know it. Pure and simple. Hence, the nice guy will NEVER be treated as well sexually as a bad boy. He made her scream. I gave her a nice back rub. Such is life.
Women want a man who is hot for them and confident. Plenty of nice guys can be hot in bed: Ryan gosling, Brad Pitt, are just a few examples that I’ve already written about.
I also surveyed my students on how they feel about rough sex and women weren’t as interested in it as you might expect, Or as men thought they would be. Many have fantasies about it but don’t want to enact in real life. There’s definitely some interest out there but the majority weren’t interested in it.
I thought I had written about this on my blog, But I can’t find it. I look around some more.
“Women want a man who is hot for them and confident. Plenty of nice guys can be hot in bed..”
If you say so I guess…
Look at the language you are using when depicting the nice guy: he “can” be hot. Not that he IS. So, in essence he is not hot on the face of it. But he “can” be.
Again the nice guy is viewed as inferior. This is what the majority of men in America face daily from women. We are judged as being inferior to crappy men because they (crappy man) are always viewed as hot. They are viewed as more sexually confident and competent. Thus more women want to (and do) have sex with them. Which in turn makes them really great at it simply because they have many more opportunities.
As I have come to learn, the more women a man has sex with, the more women who want to have sex with him. Period.
Can you see why from where most men sit, it seems rather pointless? Why can’t women just treat men the same? Why must the nice man have to prove himself as being hot in bed?
It would not irritate me so much if women would not come after the nice guys only for comfort, security, being a good dad………If women would just leave us alone instead of seeking to use us…(Because God forbid they have to have sex with us), things would be OK. Even though they are screwed up. I could live with that.
Btw, here is a piece for your reading. She has a piece on GMP.
Read #3, please.
This is one of the things she says,
“Nobody wants to fuck Mr. Nice Guy. So stop being him if you want to fuck.”
You see, it proves my point. But GMP finds it OK to run articles from her and other women on how much women truly desire nice guys. Are we men really suppose to be that dumb? Apparently so. I have to confess I was really that stupid for so long.
The problem is how we define nice guy. And the author isn’t defining “Nice” the way I am (GMP also ran my piece, btw — so that must prove that I’m right!) I sincerely doubt she’d have a problem f-ing Brad Pitt or Ryan Gosling. And plenty of women want to f- Tom Hanks in Sleepless in Seattle.
I think it’s dangerous to define nice guy the way it’s typically defined.
And yeah, a nice guy can be hot but he doesn’t have to be. He doesn’t have to be not hot either. Being nice doesn’t equal being hot. But being nice doesn’t mean you aren’t hot either.
I always hear this that women want a nice guy but at the same time they always say that he has to be bad. Eventually we think that being a bad boy is going to be like the movies where these men are considered “bad”, us women seem to think that life is like a movie when in reality it isn’t. Looks aren’t everything but then again women tend to talk to guys that they consider good looking or else men get rejected, when most women say that looks don’t matter.
I think that ideas that are commonly expressed become truisms that aren’t necessarily true. Everyone believes it because they hear it so much. And yet the vast majority of women actually prefer men who are not mean to them.
I feel like girls who aren’t attracted to the nice guys are usually the ones who aren’t looking for as serious of a relationship. When a women is looking for a long term relationship I think they feel like its very important to have a nice guy. You have to like the persons personality, if you have a good looking person with a terrible personality, it won’t work out. At the end of the day even if the women chooses to be with the mean guy, they’re going to break up and when she does pick for the next time she will probably go with the nice guy.
I do not agree with this post because I do think that most women do not like nice guys because they like a challenge, I mean this is not for all women but for most, atleast in my age around 20-25. We aren’t looking to settle down, we are looking to have fun and enjoy life with someone who brings excitment to our lives. Personally I know that I do get bored with a guy who gives me everything handed with a very passive attitude because I belive that no only women but men should have some sort of assertiveness. Like we learned in Women studies most women look at themselves through a man’s perspective, and so thats why they believe that women should be looking sexy or fitted, or even up kept. But in reality when looking at this theory I believe that you have to be specific for the age group, I do not think that all nice guys can be assertive so to some extent of course we don’t want a asshole but we also do not want a push over. So maybe I should correct myself and say that yes women do like nice guys but not push overs.
Keep in mind that people tend to think that however they are is how everyone else is. And there is no evidence that most women, even in their 20s, prefer men who are not nice: Men who are hurtful, self absorbed, don’t care about you, cruel… the opposite is nice.
I believe this idea about “nice guys finish last” and women don’t like nice guys has a lot more to do with other characteristics than just the one being discussed. Women may not be attracted to a “nice guy” because he comes off as less confident. While she may be more interested in someone else that comes off as “mean” but it wouldn’t necessarily be because he was rude but because of other attributes that attracted her. Although someone that has a large ego that may come off as very confident could be an example of why someone might think women don’t like nice guys.
A person can be nice and confident (Brad Pitt, Denzel Washington, George Clooney, Antonio Banderas, Ryan Gosling) or mean and unconfident. In fact it often happens that way. But we have come to interpret “Nice” as weak. And I worry that as a culture we have come to believe that women don’t like nice guys when they actually do. That gives both women and nice guys a bad name and that isn’t good for anyone.
I really like what was said here and I feel you are spot on. Nice guys are in no way a turnoff in my opinion. In fact, I’ve been dating one for almost 4 years now and I couldn’t be happier. I honestly don’t see anything wrong with dating a nice guy. I have dated a couple bad boys in the past and those relationships didn’t last long. I subjected myself to emotional and mental abuse and I went down a dark path because of it. Ever since I started dating the guy I am with now, the world seems so much brighter and happier. I’m truly loving life!
I feel that girls date bad boys because there’s something about that certain edge that girls get addicted to. The tattoos, piercings, motorcycle is very sexy to a lot of girls. I was one of them. However, to tell you the truth, nice guys are much hotter. Being treated like a lady, talked to respectfully, and taken out to eat or to a movie is a definite plus! To all the nice guys out there, don’t give up! There are plenty of girls out there who would want to date a nice guy and quite frankly, we both deserve it!
I’m glad you are in a great relationship now!
Many women can be attracted to different types of men. I believe men that are good aren’t always a turn-off. Many women see a good guy as if he is so desperate and willing to do anything for them, but as a women I have came across some good men and most of them do a little to much by not making their opinions matter just because they want whatever the girl wants so that to me is a no no. Although, good men that have respect and know how to treat women in a kindly way is not a turn off, most men that can be aggressive can be such a turn-off for a women who gets tired and annoyed by someone that can’t even have respect.
Some good observations.
Interesting post, Georgia… Apparently there is a propensity among the adolescent to yearn for the hard-to-get guys and gals; it is a fancy take from romantic movies and mills and boon fiction that wears off with advancing age and maturity, eventually settling in favour of, at least for the most part, well regarded men and women. Greetings of the season, dear Georgia… Raj.
Thanks for chiming in. And thanks for the seasons greetings.
I think some guys who consider themselves ‘nice guys’ are really just push-overs. Most women want to be treated with kindness and respect but don’t want a man that would do anything in the world for you to the point it’s pathetic. Be kind, but have some self-respect too.
Most of my friends boyfriends and husbands are fantastic and treat them wonderfully, but thats not to say they won’t stick up for themselves, that sometimes they’ll do what their partner wants to do and other times they’ll be the one that gets to pick the resturant/movie/day out. No one wants to hear, and only ever hear, “Oh we can just do whatever you want to do honey”.
Yeah. Pretty sad when nice starts being understood as “wimp.”
I don’t understand women that dislike nice guys. I know someone that married her husband and had kids with him because he is an a** hole. Her words not mine, while I do tend to agree with her. When he tries to spend time with one of his friends that apparently turns him into a “pussy” she gets upset and demands that he spend time with someone else. Apparently she likes this kind of man because he will “stand up for her”, but my question to her is, don’t you think that a nice guy would also stand up for you when standing up is needed? Isn’t that part of what makes them nice? They stand up when needed and treat you and everyone else around them with respect and courtesy the rest of the time. For that matter, just because they are standing up for you doesn’t mean that they are being disrespectful or not courteous so the entire bad guy thing is completely ridiculous to me.
Yeah, I don’t understand women that like bad boys, either.
More on your Mr. Nice Guy George Clooney, Be sure to read the comments.
The comment by Erin was right on as well as the others. Just what modern well-educated women find so appealing about this guy baffles me – other than his looks and having slept with tons of women. Lipstick on a pig still does not work!
If everyone saw George Clooney this way then you would be right. But most men and women Think of him as being a nice guy. In my case, The less I see him as nice the less attractive I find him.
I would usually beat myself up for my lack of dating success because of my poor self image and believing that women only date bad boys,but after reading this and other posts in this blog, I feel a lot better, thank you. My eyes are now open.
The self-esteem thing can become a vicious cycle. Rejection can lead to low self-esteem, and low self-esteem can lower your confidence, which leads to more rejection. Hard to know which comes first though.
Some people take rejection harder than others and think it reflects something true and shameful about themselves instead of understanding that different people just have different tastes and needs. The chemistry wasn’t right with that person but it could be great with someone else.
But instead of looking at the bright side, a lot of people put others down to build themselves up. And that just creates misery for everyone. In fact, it creates un-nice guys who drive people away. (Whenever guys comment on my blog that women don’t like nice guys — guys like them — they eventually reveal themselves to be quite hostile, and likely to drive people away.)
It’s better to work on building self-esteem in a constructive way. Some people need the help of a therapist. But less expensive avenues can also be taken like creating a series of small successes — and recognize the learning that comes from failures. You can also fake till you make it. When people learn to stand more confidently, for instance, it actually creates a more confident person. And also, genuinely caring about other people draws people to you.
I think I will write a blog post inspired by your comment.
I do hope that the blog has been helpful in gaining more insight into women’s psychology. I wish you the best.
“(Whenever guys comment on my blog that women don’t like nice guys — guys like them — they eventually reveal themselves to be quite hostile, and likely to drive people away.)”
First, just because a man says women do not really like nice guys does not mean he is referring to himself as being nice. Or even thinks he is a nice guy. I certainly do not consider myself a nice guy.
The best judge of who you are as a person is NOT yourself. Rather, it is how others view you and describe you as a person. As shocking as this might sound to you, women do like me. I just have not met that many whom I like (and trust) as much as they like me. What’s important to me is being likable. Not being nice.
The key advice I give men (and woman) is to make themselves likable and attractive in life. Not just for women but for all people. It is the foundation for success in life. Relationships ultimately determine how successful you will be. What that really means is you have to understand people more than yourself. This is only going to happen by taking a genuine interest in others more so than yourself.
The conventional psycho babble out here is: “Love yourself blah blah blah” It’s utter garbage. Love the other! Love the stranger! When you love the other or the stranger as much or more than yourself, then you become a likable and very attractive person. Focusing on loving yourself is the road to narcissism and sociopathy. And how many people like narcissists and sociopaths?
I think you hit the nail on the head about the “un-nice” guy. In fact I believe your average asshole type is exactly that. They were badly burned by some woman in the past and every female beyond that has to pay for it. I have known guys like this.
A few years ago I was involved with a guy who clearly had trust issues. He would even boast about being an “asshole”. The random derogatory comments he made about women showed just how transparent he was: an emotionally insecure man terrified to trust any woman. Currently I have a platonic male friend who is the same way, so much resentment for women and even admitted to me that NO woman should ever be trusted.
I used to be so naive about guys like that and think there must be something wrong with me for them to treat me like crap. It took me a few experiences with bad-boy asshole types before I was able to recognize how messed up THEY were, it was not about me. I was then able to stop feeling crappy and acknowledge that it was a weakness on their part as a result of being so damaged.
These guys were “nice guys” at one point, got hurt badly and decided to become bitter assholes to get back at women. I wish more women were aware of this to spare themselves a broken heart because it is the guy who has the problem, not them.
I’ll take a nice guy over a bad-boy any day1
Reminds me of a saying I saw on Facebook one time, “A good man can make a woman fall in love without touching anything but the heart.”
“In fact, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I think Huggy looks attractive.”
Thanks for your compliment:)-
“A good man can make a woman fall in love without touching anything but the heart.”
Yes, so long as he is attractive.
So long as she finds him attractive. And what women find attractive varies. Pretty much all men will find some women Who find them attractive. In fact, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I think Huggy looks attractive.
“Well I’m not interested in casual sex, and most women aren’t (maybe because of our socialization). Still, I’m not sure why a woman would want to have casual sex with a man who was a mean or cruel person. High numbers of women who have had casual sex regretted it because they felt like they weren’t appreciated. Sounds like they thought the guy was nicer then he turned out to be, And then didn’t enjoy the experience much in hindsight, once they felt like he was not very nice person.”
I don’t necessarily mean one night stands, but casual sex from short term dating or friends with benefits or fuck buddies. Maybe most women aren’t interested in casual sex, but apparently many or enough are participating as guys wouldn’t be having casual sex right? Plus, high school girls and college girls have had casual sex or it’s pretty common and not all of it is due to the girls “being played” lied to by player guys, but them simply being sexually attracted to the guys and having sex. And not always hard feelings after or just one or the other going their own way.
In college more women have tried casual sex than have not. But most of them don’t do it regularly — having found they don’t enjoy it much after experimenting — and only about 10% of the entire student body like hooking up.
Most of the girls I know are attracted to ‘nice guys’ when they opt for a long term relationship or marriage. I think nice guys also look dependable in various ways, so ultimately girls want yo settle with them. Though have seen a few adventurous friends who were hooked to so called bad boys but unfortunately those relationships proved to be unstable every time. Of course the choice, ultimately, depends on personal perspective og good and bad.
And nice guys can be hot, too: Bradley Cooper, Brad Pitt, et al are nice and sexy.
“I think nice guys also look dependable in various ways, so ultimately girls want yo settle with them.”
They should also want these men not just because they are dependable. They should want them because they truly love and desire them for the men they are. All men want to to feel loved and desired for the person they are. Not just because they are dependable. Or because they would make a great dad or provider. This is when you start seeing a man as an appliance or ATM….something that is useful as oppose to someone who is to be loved and desired.
This is what has so soured me on this false concept of romantic love. Often it is neither romantic nor love.
If you ask me then I would prefer going with a nice guy. Now here a nice guy means he should be smart, kind hearted, loving, caring. I don’t mind if he is not hot or he is black! All that matters is, he should have a good personality and should love me and should know how to take care of me!
Thanks for chiming in, Heta.
My kind of woman!!! Thanks for showing some love and respect for men who are not all that and a bag of chips. Men who are intelligent, principled, loving, caring, dedicated to family, not serial womanizers, and not “hot.”
Because there are many men who are better men than the frauds like George Clooney.
Best wishes for a Happy New Year
Thank you. Same to you.
When I say there has to be niceness AND physical attraction I never said the guy had to look like a model. Physical attraction is in the eye of the beholder. Take me for example. I happen to love shorter guys. I’m 5’9, and a guy a couple inches shorter than me doesn’t bother me at all, I think its cute and I often find myself drawn toward that. And many of the guys I like are pretty average looking. Other women drool over super tall guys – like beyond 6 feet and would never date a short guy. Its pretty specific to each individual. Yes some guy who looks like George Cloony with a perfectly chiseled body would get more dates than a Woody Allen look-a-like but that does NOT mean the Woody Allen look-a-like would not be attractive to any women.
For everyone out there, someone else will find them attractive. Now let me ask you this: Are you only attracted to women who look like models? If so, you’re making the lesser attractive women feel exactly the same way you do. One thing I suspect whenever men say women reject nice guys and chase assholes is maybe because you’re chasing after bitchy women? Think about it.
Keep in mind there are other personality factors involved. Some pretty average looking guys (and girls) have a lot of sex appeal, its just the way they carry themselves. Now, add a nice personality to that and its the perfect package!
“Now let me ask you this: Are you only attracted to women who look like models?”
Absolutely not!!! In fact I avoid good looking women. Most have a line of men chasing after them. Further, most have had tons of sexual partners which has zero appeal to me. A total turnoff and deal breaker for me.
I like a very average (or even below average) woman with intelligence, self confidence, kindness, manners, and good solid morals. Physically, I really do not care beyond her having a great ass and an excellent libido.
As for me personally, I have women who are interested in me. While I am out of the “game”, women do seem to like me. I have no issues whatsoever chatting it up with women. Most women and my female friends describe me as intelligent and charming. My closest friend has also said I am emotionally UN-available. She is right.
Lastly, I say this: Yes, too many men chase after the most attractive and hottest women. These women have lots of options and do exercise those options. It is all because men have been socialized to build their lives and sense of self worth around women. Damn near everything we do in some way revolves around women and sex. This has to change for men to become emotionally healthier human beings.
So, while most women think most men are ugly (the link above confirms this), men still go after the most attractive women. Why? Because while they might be unattractive, many have the great equalizer that does work for many: $$$$$, status, cash….So, these men believe they have a shot. And often they do! However, these men are stupid because the next chap with more $$$$$ who comes along is going to displace him. Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it!
“an emotionally insecure man terrified to trust any woman.”
There is a difference between being emotionally insecure and emotionally intelligent. An emotionally insecure man lacks a strong sense of his emotional well being. He does not know what matters to him emotionally. Hence, the insecurity. He is even unsure of his own emotions.
An emotionally guarded man is an emotionally intelligent man. He knows exactly how he feels and what he needs emotionally. He will not be cheated. Trust is paramount. He takes a more defensive approach in dealing with women. He is highly selective in which women are allowed to enter his emotional space.
Sex is a high and top priority in a relationship for me. Yes, it impacts me emotionally. This is not unique to me. There is a large body of research that clearly show men who enjoy healthy sex lives are happier, healthier, and more successful. Just a fact.
I am not interested in marriage anymore because I do not trust most women NOT to shut sex off after marriage. I know what I want, desire and need. I am not willing to settle for anything less! I would rather be celibate and sexless on my own terms.
If my sexual cravings ever got so crazy as to become unbearable, then I will simply hire an escort. Otherwise, I will proceed with great caution in determining what woman’s hands I want to place my sexual well being. That is not being emotionally insecure. It is being emotionally intelligent.
“If you are raging, you are not nice.” LOL, and so, unfortunately, true. I think the whole thing about “you’re a nice guy… but” – you are right, there is obviously something else that is not there, so nice guys should probably not take it as a sign to turn into a douche cuz the girl/guy would be interested otherwise. Great unpacking of the different nuances and layers to the nice guy “dilemma.”
Yeah, women aren’t turned off because a guy is nice, but in spite of the fact. For most women, nice is necessary but not sufficient.
The belief that women don’t like nice guys and love assholes is a myth. When a nice guy is turned down by a woman he’s pursuing its because the initial sexual attraction for her was never there in the first place. But many guys think if they do nice things, buy things and give these women a lot of attention she will realize how great he is and become attracted to him. It doesn’t work that way. No amount of nice things you do for a woman will make her feel physically attracted to a man, its either there or its not. Then the nice guy feels rejected and unappreciated claiming women would rather be treated like sh*t by jerks.The only reason jerks (temporarily) get women is because usually they are good looking and thats what women are initially attracted to. Douche bags are a huge turn off but sadly women don’t see this at first because they are attracted to his physical attributes but you can bet 9 out of 10 women are more than happy to unload a guy like that when his true colors are revealed. When you have the combination of physical attraction and a sweet personality it is the hottest thing ever. YES, women love nice guys!
Yes, the fact that George Clooney, Ryan Gosling, Neil Degrasse Tyson, or Seth Meyers… are nice does not exclude them from being attractive in the least!
Are not the most attractive people viewed as nicer people? I believe this has been confirmed in numerous studies. Just as taller people are viewed as more intelligent?
So, automatically you are biased in your viewed of their perceived niceness.
Ryan Gossling is a real stand up man. He has never been a serial womanizer like George Clooney. Nor did he decide to marry a much younger woman like Mr. Clooney.
George Clooney acts just like your typical patriarchal male that you detest. Obviously women his age are not good enough for him. They must have a shelf life in his world. Clearly that is the message he sends women his age. Right? But, because he is attractive, you give him a free pass. So, what’s really so great about George Clooney. He, Alec Baldwin, ex-Gov. Schwarzenegger and ex-Gov. Elliott Spitzer should start a talk show. The other two gentleman I am not familiar.
The point of the post is merely that being nice is not a turn off and George seems like a nice guy and attractive
“It’s not that most women find most men unattractive but that most women don’t find most men sexually attractive.”
It is not quibbling. It is simply FALSE.
If a woman finds a man attractive, 90% of the time she will also find him sexually attractive. Even if it for a one time shagging. The very reason he is sexually unattractive is because he IS unattractive. Sigh!
Well, I often make a distinction between finding someone attractive and wanting to have sex with them.
“George seems like a nice guy and attractive.”
Fine. You can call him attractive. But, just how is it that he “seems like a nice guy” when he treats women like sex objects? How is he any different than Jesse James who Sandra Bullock was married?
I really just don not get how women form their opinions of men. I really don’t. It truly makes NO logical sense to me, art all.
I think if you asked most women, or men, the vast majority would say they think that he is a nice guy. I don’t have any idea why so many of his relationships didn’t work until his recent marriage.
Here is reality: what drives a woman’s desire for a man is NOT his niceness. It is his attractiveness, largely his physical attractiveness. And we all know that MOST women find MOST men unattractive.
So, we need to toss this nice man stuff in the garbage can. It simply is not relevant. Being just a nice guy = boring for most women. Which means NOT ATTRACTIVE.
“When you have the combination of physical attraction and a sweet personality it is the hottest thing ever.”
And just what percentage of the male population possess these two attributes? So, what it means is if you have average attractiveness and a sweet personality, you are not the hottest things ever. That’s reality!!!
“YES, women love nice guys!”
I scoff at the notion. You just admitted that this was not true!!! You said it was, “physical attraction and a sweet personality…” What the hell does being nice have to do with these two things, exactly? Nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nice is necessary but not sufficient.
And regarding this:
MOST women find MOST men unattractive
It’s not that most women find most men unattractive but that most women don’t find most men sexually attractive. You may find that quibbling. More importantly, almost all men (Maybe all of them) will be found attractive by some women, so that’s the good news.
This is whole argument is based on a misunderstanding of the definition “nice guy”.
Women are NOT attracted to nice guys. Women are attracted to good guys.
What you mean as “nice guy” is actually “good guy”. That’s a big difference.
Nice guys are like “yes-men”, eager to please but hoping that the world will reciprocate their nice doings. Nice guys may seem like they are nice but in reality they are very egoistical, they are “pretending” to be nice to get their way.
Good guys on the other hand are genuinely good.
A very good book about this is “No more mr. Nice Guy” by Dr. Robert A. Glover
Good guys are nice guys. And nice guys are good guys.
It worries me when people define nice the way you have. And it worries me when people keep insisting that women don’t like nice guys. That could encourage a lot of poor treatment of women.
The problem is when people interpret nice as “Wimp.”
And as you point out, wimps aren’t necessarily nice. They may or may not be. But wimps are not attractive. Nice guys are.
Funny enough, last night I went to the cinema for the movie “Into the Woods”.
There was this line “Nice doesn’t mean good”.
I am not talking about wimps. “Nice guys” pretend to be nice because they believe subcounsiously that then people and especially women owe them for their niceness.
“Nice guys” are needy and they are waiting for a reward for their niceness.
Good guys are the genuinely good guys.
That’s how it is.
And that’s why many women loose their interest after they meet a nice guy. They sense their needness and their lack of self-respect.
On the other hand if the woman remains interested in that guy then he wasn’t a “nice guy” in the first place, he was a “good guy”.
Brad Pitt is a “good guy” not a “nice guy”
Like I said, I worry when we have a culture that teaches everyone that women don’t find nice guys attractive. That’s actually unhealthy.
“Nice guys may seem like they are nice but in reality they are very egoistical, they are “pretending” to be nice to get their way.
Good guys on the other hand are genuinely good.”
Wow. Talk about painting with a broad brush. I can assure you there are a lot of “good guys” who are also in reality narcissistic assholes too.
Then they aren’t really good guys, are they?
Hey huggy bear, if you read what I wrote, I specifically seperated “good guys” from “nice guys”.
“Good guys” are genuinely good. “Nice guys” on the other hand are needy and hypocrites.
And I disagreed with that definition of nice guys because it paints women as not liking men who are genuinely nice.I don’t think John Claude meant to be disrespectful of women. But I do worry when we have a culture that insists that women don’t find nice men attractive.
I do not like bad boys – movies or otherwise. I like nice guys who try to be nice and don’t believe they are nice. I think there is a huge difference between the two.
I think “nice guy” is often interpreted as “wimp.” But the two are very different things. thanks so much for chiming in.
You’re welcome! A guy wouldn’t be a wimp unless the situation called for it, would he? And those are rare occurrences. What turns me off in a nice guy is his inability to admit the times he is NOT nice. I think niceness and honesty/self-awareness go hand in hand.
I find your blog so interesting and inspirational. You always have such interesting topics to talk about.
Why thank you! And you make a good point there on the need for honesty and self-awareness.
And not to mention that what’s considered “nice” is up for discussion. Some of these guys seem to fail to discern being nice from being overly shy, of low confidence or a doormat who never stands up for himself. I see this behaviour in some women too. Unfortunately some people end up devoured by bitterness because of it, which of course doesn’t improve your dating chances in the long run. It’s a typical “nice guy” trap.
Yes, one could be a doormat and have low confidence and also be nice, but that is hardly the definition of nice.
That is also not the definition of attractive.
A person can certainly be both nice and attractive. And me and my married friends – those who are still married – only want relationships with nice guys.
“A person can certainly be both nice and attractive. And me and my married friends – those who are still married – only want relationships with nice guys.”
I don’t know what the stats show, but you saying you and your married friends only want relationships with nice guys. You see the key word there “relationship”. That word means nothing for the frustrated “nice guys”, some aren’t taking solace that a woman will come around to want a relationship with him after she’s had flings, etc with the bad boys before him and he’s the sloppy second basically that she decides she wants to be with and settle down with. These “nice guys” are frustrated, not from not getting relationships from women, but from not getting sex, but seeing guys they see as jerks getting sex instead of them and perhaps a lot of sex. Combine that slap to the face and bruised ego as well as great sexual frustration could eventually lead to bitterness, which is obviously not good. I think it’s the guy’s fault for thinking being nice gets them priveleges, as I think these guys are fake and insincere as they are doing what they think women like just to get something out of it instead of being themselves. That’s where the doormat word comes up. I’m just explaining where this frustation comes from, and how these men being told some women may find them attractive or want a relationship might not really be that comforting or help much.
I mean, jeesh, even a 350lb, hairy ass man, that’s weird can have some woman find him attractive. Just go to walmart and you’ll see, some interesting looking guys with interesting looking women. There’s someone for everyone it seems. So it doesn’t feel that comforting for a good looking, “nice guy” that’s not doing well to be told that, or there are women that will find men attractive luckily. Well yeah, I guess a man with no pride can be satisfied about that if he’s goofy looking and doesn’t have much personality. But if he feels highly of himself because he knows he’s attractive and has a personality then of course, lack of success would be extremely frustrating. Then again, such guy’s doing the nice act are doing things wrong, they don’t understand how it’s ok to joke, tease, be playful, witty, funny, etc and push buttons, though lightly. But being natural, and how such stuff can create tension and make him interesting and more likely for a woman to be attracted to him, than a fake, watered down nice guy act.
Well I’m not interested in casual sex, and most women aren’t (maybe because of our socialization). Still, I’m not sure why a woman would want to have casual sex with a man who was a mean or cruel person. High numbers of women who have had casual sex regretted it because they felt like they weren’t appreciated. Sounds like they thought the guy was nicer then he turned out to be, And then didn’t enjoy the experience much in hindsight, once they felt like he was not very nice person.
I agree, I think some people think they need to be doormats to be nice, then it turns out, surprise surprise, people are not falling over themselves to date doormats. You can be a kind, loving, caring person and still look out for yourself and your own needs.
This thing with tinder is stupid. I read it on the link there and it said the difference with it to eharmony and match.com and why it’s popular and rising compared to eharmony. I agree the computer algorithims are bogus and other stuff and they make an argument how pictured tell a lot and more so than calculations. But last I checked there are dating sites like okcupid and plentyoffish, which you have pictures and can post a bunch of pictures for people to see and judge by.
These sites can have profiles and be more about faces and looks than compatibility from calculations, yet they aren’t succeeding like tinder. I mean if people want to go the tinder route, they just post their picture on plentyoffish and just don’t write anything right? What’s any different from that to tinder, other than like swipes? And is it popular and busy from people just having fun clicking like, but not actually meeting each other? Last time I checked, plentyoffish and other dating sites were not too successful for men. I wonder how tinder is for men as far as dates actually go, or it’s simply popular as and more used in “browsing” basically like social media and not actually people dating or hooking up from it.
Apparently people use the pictures to discern personality, so personality is actually really important to them, And they assume that the pictures are giving them good clues to “who they are” — who knows whether that’s a good way to discern personality? But the Tinder studies have shown that most women reject men who they perceive to be unkind, preferring nice guys, instead.
What can’t people use the photos from plentyoffish or okcupid to give them “clues to who the people are ” as well? Women can do that from the profile pictures from that too, it’s weird. You can tell something about who a person is from their pictures? It depends if it’s a picture of just you and not a social one or pictures showing much, then they can’t. Plus if that was the case there wouldn’t be women asking for more when guy’s simply just posted their pictures and no or few words in their profiles on dating sites.
I’ve seen it, on such sites where many women said they had nothing to go from as no personality was shown or anything from the profile and just the picture. If this was the case, then men would be getting away with just pictures on dating sites, but they can’t. Seems like a contradiction to me. I think tinder is popular,is becaue it’s an app and most 20 something people like apps and use their iphones more than computers and it’s an on the go thing. I think they treat it like twitter and a social media device and just have and use it more so to window shop than actually go out and date guys from. I think it’s more often guy’s using it to meet girls from, of course.
I don’t know all of the ins and outs of Tinder. I just know that researchers found that women often reject the best looking men because they with think they would be not nice.
“As I said before, the fact that Paul Krugman, Tom Hanks, George Clooney, Ryan Gosling, Neil Degrasse Tyson, or Seth Meyers… are nice does not exclude them from being attractive in the least!”
You’re missing my point totally here. It is their high status as men that makes them so attractive to so many women. The faults and flaws of a high status man are often times overlooked by many women. So, he is still nice only because he is high status.
All people hate being treated in an unkind and mean fashion. All. However, many of us have endured such due to various reasons..So, I am not saying women do not like nice men. We all like nice people. However, just because you are nice does not mean you will be treated in kind.
The only reason I mentioned men with high status is because they are the only men who were famous enough that other people can get a sense of what I’m talking about. If I start talking about guys I know, but who no one else knows, people can’t judge for themselves. I know lots of un-famous, relatively poor professors and political activists, for instance, who I have found very attractive.
And, the vast majority of men find women who love them, are attracted to them, and marry them.
All my friends are married to nice guys. All of the guys I’ve dated long term, and the guy I married, are all nice guys. They aren’t all high status.
This notion that women don’t like nice guys is a dangerous one, which harms relationships between the sexes. It encourages men to be misogynistic and it leads to women being ill treated.
And just because you’re nice doesn’t mean that women will find you attractive. The trait is necessary, but not sufficient. Like I tend to be attracted to intelligent political activists who are good at emotional connection and empathy. And who I find physically attractive for whatever reason — and I have a large range of types that I like.
No wonder they get more of an idea about you from your pictures. They can scan through your facebook pictures. I wouldn’t like that lack of privacy. I saw this article about it . http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith/dating-with-tinder.html
“On Tinder, both men and women flip through Facebook pictures of the opposite or same sex, and gawk and gush before selecting a few pretty faces from the yearning masses. ”
“There’s a short bio, age and mutual friends listed, ”
So they can see who your friends are too? eh. no wonder girls can get an idea from your pictures if they can see all this stuff from you on your facebook. It’s a question of if someone likes others looking at your facebook pictures who you aren’t friends with and don’t know and your mutual friends if you have any.
“Last time I checked, plentyoffish and other dating sites were not too successful for men.”
Most dating sites are NOT kind to most men. What internal research has found is women tend to flock to about 20%-25% of the same men. So, if you happen to be one of the those 20%-25% of uber attractive men, then the world is your oyster for dating and lots of sex with lots of different women.
If you happen to be a real “Average Joe”, you’re just going to find yourself a AFC – Average Frustrated Chump in PUA lingo.
But, when it comes time for marriage and/or long term relationships, then Mr. Nice is in play. But, for all the wrong reasons.
This is what women refuse to talk about. No discussion whatsoever. Yet, feminist want us men to jump on their bandwagon and listen to all their frustrations (which are real)…….It would be nice (and respectful) if a few women would address a lot of this kind of insidious and predatory behavior on the part of many women. Just saying..
I’m afraid that your dating statistics are inverted. You’re describing what happens with men, Not what happens with women. See this post, with charts:
If you want to stay in the delusion that women don’t like men who are nice to them and treat them well, that’s up to you. But it is a dangerous myth that encourages men to treat women unkindly.
As I said before, the fact that Paul Krugman, Tom Hanks, George Clooney, Ryan Gosling, Neil Degrasse Tyson, or Seth Meyers… are nice does not exclude them from being attractive in the least! All of them are nice, some are super hot and some are not, but plenty of women find these men very attractive — and for the right reasons: They are attractive.
By the way, you wrote a couple other comments that are repetitive of the ones I posted, And I don’t like to post repetitive comments.
If the girl is looking for a long-term relations, then she will surely go for the so-called nice guy. Bad guys often bag the short term casual offers. The problem is that there is no clear-cut definition of the term ‘Nice Guy’. I love reading your posts, this one is no exception 😉
My definition of “nice guy” is a man who is nice, and not mean and cruel. If a woman is mentally healthy she’s not going to be attracted to mean and cruel people.
Mental health is an issue. I agree on that 🙂
“My definition of “nice guy” is a man who is nice, and not mean and cruel.”
Great! Then that would be about 80%-90% of men in America!
I agree 100%. And 80 to 90% of men in America find women who find them attractive and marry them.
Some women tell me they are not attracted to men who directly state a desire to get to know and date them. Instead, they are attracted to distant and noncommittal personalities and say they relish the challenge and the thrill of the romantic chase that these men present. They may see a man who openly expresses an interest in them as soft and not sufficiently masculine. One-on-one conversations with a man interested in the whole woman feels awkward and strange to them.
For women who struggle with low self-esteem, nice guys do not match their neuronal wiring for a negative self-image. As a result, it may feel odd, uncomfortable and even burdensome to become romantic with men who directly and positively take an interest in them. Instead women who struggle with low self-worth continually pick men who re-confirm their view of themselves as being not good enough. Their learned dating pattern screens out those men who see them more positively than they see themselves.
Yeah, as I said some women actually do like bad boys. And you’re right about the low self-esteem thing as being one of the reasons for that.
But most women like nice guys. Plenty of evidence of that. But they do tend to like nice guys who are confident and totally turned on by “Her” Plus some mysterious other thing, Which varies from woman to woman.
“But most women like nice guys. Plenty of evidence of that.”
Sorry but I think you are being thoroughly disingenuous here.
The real question is whether they (the women) are turned on by “Him.” So what if he is turned on by “Her?”. How does that make things better for him? Should she also be turned on my “Him?”
Are most men every truly desired by women?
All the men I have been turned on by are nice guys. All of my friends are married to nice guys, and find them attractive. Women rejected attractive guys on tinder because they didn’t look like they would be nice. And plenty of women are attracted to all of the nice guys I listed above.