Dominatrix: Worshipped and Objectified
Paul Giamatti of Showtime’s Billions, all tied up as his dominatrix wife looks down on him.
I recently debated two of my readers, Bob and Fred, about whether women like being dominated in consensual sex.
After searching my files I found a sample of my students, 83 women and 63 men who are not gay/lesbian (because I wanted a sample of people who have sex cross-sexually). I had wondered what my male students believed about women and what women felt, themselves:
Do women like to be dominated
| Interest level | What men think women want | Women’s actual interest |
| High | 37% | 14% |
| Medium | 49% | 41% |
| Low | 13% | 45% |
Just over one-third of men thought that women would really enjoy being sexually submissive, nearly half thought they would have at least moderate interest, and just 13% thought that women wouldn’t have too much interest in being on the submissive side of dominating sex.
By comparison, almost half of the women had low interest. Still, more than half did have at least some interest in sexual submission.
This is pretty consistent with a larger University of Montréal survey which found that just over half of women had fantasized about being dominated.
That’s not so surprising considering that our society spends so much time and effort eroticizing male dominance, which I have written about before.
After discussing this I pointed out:
Our society does eroticize male dominance. But you also see a turnaround with quite a few men also having submission fantasies. A University of Montreal survey found just more than than half of women and just less than half of men had fantasized about being dominated.
But then Bob made some interesting points, saying that when it comes to dominating sex, the roles are still pretty gendered. I found his thoughts interesting and insightful enough to reprint below (lightly edited):
The dominatrix is framed through the male gaze
Men do also have fantasies of being dominated. I’m balanced so while I like to dominate and be in control, a woman being dominant and in control is fun for me too. But despite having a submissive side, I see no appeal to female dominance as it’s typically portrayed.
Women may dominate men but it’s still “gendered.” In fact, I’d say that it’s still subservient in some ways.
The dominatrix is still a sex object, and sexualized much more than the man she’s dominating, and also much more than a man in a dominant role. The dominatrix is even framed through a male fetish gaze that serves the man.
And since men are, on average, bigger and have more muscle mass it’s less easy for a woman to rag doll a man. (But a woman can still f*ck a guy hard and rough and still be forceful.)
So for a man to be submissive to a dominatrix he becomes the female domme’s dog or doormat pretty much. She mentally dominates him in order to dominate him sexually.
The male is a servant that worships the ground the female domme walks on. Her sex appeal and seduction — historical paths to female power in patriarchy — are what control, what force him to do what she wants.
Male and female rape victims both face disbelief
Rape fantasy is often called submission fantasy because the woman actually has complete control, but I want to distinguish it from submitting to a dominatrix — so rape fantasy or ravaging doesn’t play into the women-dominating-men genre, generally. Men love beautiful women being horny and I would think it ultra flattering to be the focus of lustful aggression and ravaging, but you don’t find it much in porn.
But I did see an unusual ad for Tag body spray that shows women sexually attacking a man, which would never be shown in reverse since it would be highly disturbing. Myths that women like rape make it hard to believe women, but I’m realizing that men suffer from a similar myth. We have an idea that any guy would want this, women throwing themselves at men and forcing sex, which makes it hard for male rape victims to be believed, too. When I saw that similarity for both women and men I was surprised.
So what surprised me when I started thinking about this were some things that were similar, like female and male rape victims both being disbelieved because so many people think they wanted the sex. And also that female dommes are still ultimately sex objects, framed through a male gaze that serves men.
Related posts
- What Happens When You Beat A Sex Object?
- What Do Top Model and Hard Core Porn Have in Common?
- Porn Fantasy Mistaken for Reality
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Posted on March 12, 2019, in sex and sexuality, violence against women and tagged dominatrix, gender, sex, sexuality. Bookmark the permalink. 117 Comments.
BroadBlogs 
Healthy sexual expression free of societal norms is so important to the overall health of an individual. Our culture tends to suppressed sexuality. However, when I attended the San Francisco Annual BDMS event (I am not sure if that is what it is called), I found a community that aims to rid of traditional gender norms. A community where people can be free to be whoever one wants to be. Some people were sexual object/slave, dominatrix, a doormat or a domme but the most important aspect I noticed was the importance placed on consent to enter these roles. I learned that the idea behind BDMS is a mutual power exchange build on trust. For example, the domiatrix (even if they are a sexual object) gives the power to her submissive to be that and the submissive give the power to the dominatrix to do whatever it is that the submissive finds pleasing. The expectations and boundaries of each person participating are openly discussed prior to engaging in these activities, particularly, because you are handing over your power to someone. It is mutually beneficial to both partners regardless of gender and regardless of what role you play. Overall it is an accepting, non-judgmental community, which, I admit was a surprise to me because on the outside, it looks scary.
I think that it makes sense that women do not want to be submissive. Throughout history women were forced to be submissive to men so it may not be as appealing as it is now. I feel that men believe that women may like to be submissive because there are always images in media showing women being submissive and enjoying it. Some men like a submissive woman and they may feel that it is equal pleasure for both, when in reality, its not. I think a female dominant still does not have full control over the male. I agree with Bob who said that men see the female as a sex toy. She is doing everything to please the man that he may not want to do by himself. She is following his command and orders while adding some twists herself. But, at the end of the day, the men are still the ones in charge even if the females are acting as the dominant one.
We definitely have a culture that encourages girls and women to be more submissive. And yet and are about as likely as women to desire a submissive sex role.
Well I mean it’s not simply because the female dom is always like serving the male sub even though it seems like the female dom plays into a male subs fetish. So it’s serving in that way. But how it’s gendered as far as the domination itself. A woman dom can have a male serve her and do everything for her, like not letting him cum until she does or spending the whole time eating her out while she doesn’t go down on him. But that’s my point. But that’s why, as well as how women are often objectified as doms, how I feel it’s interesting how dominance is gendered and why I often don’t feel female doms are usually actually dominant. It’s interest how male dominance can be of the woman serving him and soft dominance like that, but also just straight up rough, almost brutal (consensual sex). Whereas, I don’t watch much porn, but I’m just thinking when the last time I’ve seen any scene or porn where I would say a woman just brutally fucked a guy from rough sex. She either doesn’t do it, isn’t that aggressive to that extent, doesn’t fuck in such way or often because of how women and men maybe are expected to express themselves in life, and it reflects with sex.
I think porn has it because women are sex objects that women fake moan or be noisy which yes guys like and I do, but I hate fake stuff which porn often has. But even when a woman is on top in like porn and trying to ride hard, her sounds, expressions, and his lack of expression….like yeah she’s on top and in control, but not only does she not seem dominant, but like she’s being fucked and ravaged and not him because of the impact on her based on her facial expression and sounds vs his lack of. It gives the impression of his cock ravaging her even though he’s not moving and she’s the one thrusting and her pussy not having much effect or any ravaging effect on the dude. Which Is not true and women can ravage, but that’s how it seems to go. Whereas, nobody questions if the male is dominant when on top right?
Because its less you serve me softly, but rough pounding and her expressions which exemplify his ravaging dominance. To me, Dominance is fucking the shit out of someone, but also the impact and expression of that effect and wanting to be ravaging and aggressive and able to. Men often go that route with sexual dominance, whereas, female doms go the “you eat me out forever, I humiliate you, like soft dominance” does that make sense? So it’s interesting how even sex goes that way whether women do it consciously or sub consciously. It plays into the society condition or stereotype of men as warriors right and fucking like that vs women as the seductive, sensual controllers and power and dominance in that way.
Yes. People internalize their culture and tend to reenact it unconsciously.
“I agree with your points. I was even noticing that I have acted like Joe Biden — showing affection at times — and no one thinks anything of it. And actually a lot of women thought the whole Joe Biden thing was overblown, including me.”
Well you know how there’s innocent before proven guilty or guilty before proven innocent. Because of our culture, a man will be often assumed with perversion intent even if touch and intent is innocent, whereas, a woman’s touch or action more often assumed innocent, even if her actual intent wasn’t innocent and actually perversion to it.
It’s kind of messed up though and I get it, as I definitely have stronger reactions towards a man being sexually abusive toward a woman than vice versa. It’s one thing to do that, but it’s another thing how many people, and just as many women included as far as reactions go. How people don’t even notice or acknowledge something wrong done by a woman even though it should be obvious and an atleast a “that’s fucked up” reaction. Here’s an example, this song and music video where it doesn’t show it, it’s not going to show nudity or sex. But it’s something where you don’t have to see it to get the implication of what was happening. Her straddling him, the movements was suggesting sex. And there’s no like it’s not really or this or that. It literally is a video sung by Fergie where her character is obsessed with Slash, and like a stalker groupie, meets him at a bar and roofies him.
The blurred pov vision from Slash exemplifies that. Not to mention the shot showing him trying to got out of his bondage when he was on the bed and her knife and at the end it looks like she slashed his head, but it cuts out but her motion showed that. I mean it’s just a rape and murder basically shown, but since it’s a sexy, skimpy clothed woman doing it, everyone just ignores it. I remember seeing the comments on youtube of the video and nobody mentions like “hey, this looks like female on male rape” But something about her singing and she should sing more for rock or how sexy the video was….what?? Like women commenting and not mentioning anything of that. It’s nothing graphic, like I said it’s all implied stuff, but implied rape imo. But here’s the music video and you can assess it yourself and tell me your thoughts. Song is called Beautiful Dangerous ft Slash
Men are more likely to rape than women are, and it is grounded in the tradition of patriarchy which enacts male dominance in a number of ways, rape being one. Maybe because women don’t rape very often this sort of thing isn’t taken very seriously. Patriarchy also objectifies women and this video was highly objectifying of women. Women are defined entirely sexually. Since women raping men doesn’t fit in with our cultural notions I think people have a hard time getting their heads around what’s happening in this video. They have a hard time seeing it for what it is.
Yeah. It sure sexualized female on male rape, which is obviously not right. But I can see why it didn’t even register as rape to people when it’s presented in such a sexual way. It’s interesting how it’s portrayed so differently. With a male raping a woman it’s not presented as sexy but scary, and brutal and such. Yet the female what would be female raping a male scenes in movies and tv, they are often treated as comedy or sexy, when you know the reverse of that wouldn’t be so funny or sexy with a male doing it. Think of the dude having a woman tied to the bed. He could act all sexy he wants but the knife to her body and having sex with her against her will would be highly disturbing to most rational people or you know the reverse definitely would have been seen as rape by people. But yeah I see different things in the video that obviously show lack of consent from slash’s character.
First his was drugged by the date rape drug, most likely a roofie by Fergie’s character. It shows in the video with his blurred vision which explains how she was able to tie him up and restrain him despite his greater strength. A drug like that can negate a man’s strength and knock him out or make him weak which would allow him to be be held down or even vulnerable to a woman he’s normally stronger than. There were parts which showed Slash’s character looking nervous and scared like her tracing the huge knife over his chest, which I think most people would be freaked out ha. And then different parts of the video shows his legs and arms violently pulling at the restraints trying to get free or out of them, which is well the other sign with the others of it being against his will and not consenting to having been drugged and restrained and implied sex in that state.
Yeah, our reactions to rape are very gendered in so many ways. Sometimes it hurts man because it isn’t taken seriously. Sometimes it hurts girls compared to boys because some people will blame girls but if a boy is raped by someone like a pedophile priest they are less likely to think it was the boys fault.
“Thanks for this. I like to write about how behaviors are caused by social patterns and since we socialize men in a way that is more likely to cause abusive behavior — men are expected to be aggressive, dominant, no emotion except for anger — men are more likely to abuse. So Katy Perry’s behavior probably isn’t due to cultural socialization. But what is interesting here is the public reaction. We tend to think of women as being nice and less abusive so we don’t notice her behavior when it happens or condemn her for it.”
But can’t a woman doing such stuff be also due to the effects of cultural socialization? Perhaps it’s why women do it less than men, but it could also be why some women might sexually harass a man too. People are more likely to do things they feel they can get away with. Those men like Epstein and Weinstein did so because they see women as objects, but also because of their power. They feel they were invincible. If they felt they didn’t have the power and would be easily caught and punished, they might not have done such things. Not because of morals, but the repercussions of said actions.
Katy Perry didn’t have that same power, but a sexy woman could internalize things and whether consciously or sub consciously acknowledge she can get away with much more than a guy can with flirting or sexual advances, sexual harassment stuff, etc. Her ego can also make her feel her actions are purely innocent and that it’s ok or that the guy would like it or it’s harmless just because she’s a woman even if the actions are the same as a male, but a male’s actions would be considered sexual assault or harassment. So as a result of culture, women who do such things may do so because they are the “sexy sex” and can get away with it. Katy Perry being a rich, famous, celebrity but also seen as sexy, most likely has done such things because she’s katy perry and what guy could ever be bothered by a sexy woman doing anything like that right? That wasn’t the first time either. It’s not a bad thing but just shows the double standard. A dude on american idol, I think 18 or 19?
A virgin or whatever and never kissed a girl or something. I think he was religious and holding out for the right woman or something. Either way katy thought he was cute or something. And had him come over after his performance and had him lean over and like she was gonna kiss his cheek, but instead kissed him on the lips. Innocent right? I mean it’s not that big of a deal. But it actually did bother him. Other guys probably would have liked it and that’s what I think she assumed, because of our culture. But it made him uncomfortable, because he wanted his first kiss to be with a girl he had feelings for or something like that he said and she snuck a kiss on him that he wasn’t expecting and well didn’t consent to. You know damn well Simon cowell woud’ve been crucified or any male judge if the reverse happened even if it was supposed to be innocent. Interesting how even if innocent, a guy is more likely assumed of perverted intentions, whereas, even if a woman may have had crude intentions she’s given the benefit of the doubt of doubt or it’s ok even if it shouldn’t be.
“But can’t a woman doing such stuff be also due to the effects of cultural socialization?”
The thing is you don’t find a heavy pattern of this sort of behavior with women so it’s probably not due to cultural socialization.
Maybe our cultural idea that men like sex of any sort, and would never turn down sexual behavior, would encourage someone like Katy Perry to behave that way, but her behavior still isn’t as strong pattern among women. So more likely something about her particular experience.
Well that’s my point is that it’s cultural perhaps for women to be less aggressive in that sense and do such stuff much less than men. So culture may cause that, but it seems culture also can be due in the same sense for the women who do sexually harass or abuse, to do so because of culture. I think it’s human nature (if said person has questionable ethics or morals) for a person to do something wrong if they feel they can get away with it. I truly believe katy wouldn’t have done the things she’s done if she felt she wouldn’t get away with it or that it was wrong.
She internalized our culture or made herself believe perhaps that she’s doing nothing wrong, because she’s a sexy woman. And all men would like any sexual attention from her. As well as the leeway she internalized and aware given because she’s female. Trust me. Many decent guys, myself, are aware of having much less leeway than women. Even say at work an innocent crude joke not directed to anyone is more likely to get a male worker in trouble than female even if she says same thing. I’ve had co workers, it doesn’t bother me because guys we usually shrug things off. But the most vulgar, tmi people I’ve been around at work places have been female. I have a feeling part of the reason they are so brave is because they are female. Yes women can get in trouble., but there’s much more room and freedom for it than for a male. I and other guy workers have joked, yeah I could definitely not get away with that lol, nor were we wanting to say stuff. But then part of me jokingly things, damn the vulgar shit I could probably get away with if I was a woman ha. So I think the culture effect of “what I can get away with as a woman” is a lot to do with katy perry and the women who do sexually abuse or harass have in their mind. I think such women even if they want to, don’t do it if there’s was standard put on them that is upon men with such stuff. Women do definitely get much more leeway in that regard.
I agree with your points. I was even noticing that I have acted like Joe Biden — showing affection at times — and no one thinks anything of it. And actually a lot of women thought the whole Joe Biden thing was overblown, including me.
There are a lot of stereotypes that would cause most to believe that men take on the dominating role in bed, but the truth is, is that although men are usually larger and stronger, stereotypes do not always follow people into the bedroom. It is also interesting to discover the topic of the fact that if a man were to sexually attack a woman people would be sicusted and upset, while if the roles were reversed people would think it was hardcore and sexy. Something to compare this to, although not the same thing at all, is the fact that when a large dog bites people multiple times, it is put down. On the other hand, a cat that bites their owner every day does not get any punishment or hate. The truth is, is that cats are not as threatening or powerful as dogs, so nobody feels the need to object to an out of control weak animal. This is similar to my previous statement because although an aggressive and controlling male or female can be in the same headspace, if a woman is weaker than a man and cannot do serious damage to them, nobody would care. Eve if the woman was seriously injuring the man, he would be seen as weak and be made fun of. Overall, gender roles with sex and in general have a lot to fo with body types and power, even if the mental game is all the same.
Stereotypes are grounded in social patterns. Social patterns in turn reinforce stereotypes.
Because the world is so complex The human mind simplifies things. Where there is a social pattern stereotypes arise – a simplified version of reality.
“Where there is a social pattern stereotypes arise – a simplified version of reality.”
Without that simplified version of reality, you wouldn’t be able to get up in the morning.
True.
You see this? Saw an article just come out, and you think women get slammed who come forward about being sexually abused, etc. Me too is said to be for everyone, and more often it’s women of course abused. But it should be for anyone no matter the gender of the victim and gender of the abuser. But (it’s not her first time either) Katy Perry did something that made a male model in one of her videos for teenage dream and pulled his pants down and exposed his dick to everyone, without his consent and surprise. I’m a guy and I know how guys can do lewd stuff to each other, but just saying, you know damn well it would be wrong (as it should be). If a man just pulled a woman’s pants down in front of people and her hoo ha exposed to everyone or pulled her top off and her bare tits. But some reason it’s not a big deal for the reverse. I guess he was attacked by katy perry fans and everyone and making things up and his manhood attacked by such fans, and since many katy perry fans are women. It kind of shows a hypocrisy and double standard.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/katy-perrys-teenage-dream-costar-accuses-her-of-sexual-misconduct-164440795.html
Thanks for this. I like to write about how behaviors are caused by social patterns and since we socialize men in a way that is more likely to cause abusive behavior — men are expected to be aggressive, dominant, no emotion except for anger — men are more likely to abuse. So Katy Perry’s behavior probably isn’t due to cultural socialization. But what is interesting here is the public reaction. We tend to think of women as being nice and less abusive so we don’t notice her behavior when it happens or condemn her for it.
“men are more likely to abuse. So Katy Perry’s behavior probably isn’t due to cultural socialization.”
Hang on, we live in an age where feminists are telling us that women and men are the same. This blog being a primary proponent of that theory. So if per se, society is promoting abuse, and if society is saying women can do anything men can do, then society is telling Katy Perry she can abuse people. I mean, if it is cultural. If you believe that.
Now, since all of us are mostly brought up by our mothers, more so that our fathers… this is always true.. but even more so in this age where 83% of single parents are mothers, and 30% of families are single parent, I think we can definitively label abuse as toxic femininity now, can’t we? This must surely be caused by how mothers bring up their sons and daughters.
Women and men have differences biologically, of course. Different genes, hormone levels and differences in anatomy. Those are sex differences. Anything that varies by culture is a gender difference.
All of us have unconsciously internalized sexism, including mothers. So mothers are more likely to give boys toys that are competitive and often violent: Play guns, bow and arrow, violent video games, footballs, basketballs, baseballs, racing cars. Dads are more likely to teach boys how to shoot real guns and take them to car races. Dad’s in particular are likely to get upset if their sons play with dolls.
Mothers are also more likely to give their daughters toys that are oriented toward cooperation: baby dolls, barbie and her friends, tea party sets.
Mom’s aren’t the only thing that affect children’s experiences. Children’s books, movies and cartoon reflect the notion of more violent males. children grow up seeing images of male violence more than female violence.
Boys are taught by parents and society that boys don’t cry. So boys learn that so-called weak emotions like sadness or depression should be avoided. The turn them into so-called strong emotions like anger, often accompanied by violence.
Girls are taught to express any emotion except for anger. It’s partly why women are more likely to cry when they’re angry.
Rather than go down the rabbit hole of this plethora of myths, let’s look at one: boys don’t cry because testosterone inhibits crying and tears:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0042352
Rather than blaming “boys don’t cry” on some mythological cultural concern, why don’t you look to biological reality than men generally don’t cry, because we are not biologically equipped to. By constantly harping on your feminist mythology that boys not crying is some kind of defect in boys caused by society, you are being bigoted and sexist.
And yet men cry. They are perfectly capable of doing so.
Testosterone also harms verbal skills and yet we have Shakespeare.
“And yet men cry. They are perfectly capable of doing so.”
Men are far less able to cry, as the study showed. Your statement makes about as much sense as saying “women can be tall”, despite the abundant evidence that generally, women are not.
“Testosterone also harms verbal skills and yet we have Shakespeare.”
You’re a biological essentialist if it’s bad news for men?
Verbal fluency, as the criteria for which it is normally measured against testosterone is the rate at which you can produce words. But we don’t know the rate Shakespeare produced words. Most of the great writers are men, so I think it’s fair to say testosterone is a win for quality, and estrogen is a win for quantity.
American men may well cry less than women but you fail to recognize that nature and nurture work together. When men are constantly told that boys don’t cry and that tears are a sign of weakness men increasingly become incapable of crying. And yet, men are perfectly capable of crying. Boys cry otherwise they wouldn’t be told not to. And there are plenty of tall women.
Re “Verbal fluency, as the criteria for which it is normally measured against testosterone is the rate at which you can produce words.” Nope. That’s not the criteria.
My point is that people become biological essentialist when they shouldn’t. Testosterone damages verbal ability and yet we have plenty of great male writers. Just goes to show that biological essentialism is overrated.
i feel dominatrix has been glorified in the media in the past few year. not only because of the release of the fifty shades of grey series, but also the rise of dominatrix clubs such as the soft leather club in la, and them being advertised all over social media. i think it is also important to talk about topics talked about in the last couple of paragraphs. i think women as well as men can and do get sexually harassed. unwanted attention can go both ways. i think its important to be addressed and lowkey already has been with the cardi b rape case from before she was famous and was still a stripper.
I never considered how mainstream depictions of female dominance were framed from the male gaze, but it totally makes sense. To answer “for whom do these actions of female dominance serve” is to recenter the discussion on men again. Consider the section of BroadBlogs’s post, which mentions how the dominatrix is a sex object in mainstream interactions. The connection to sex symbols is both and productive from a symbolic and physical perspective. Sex objects aren’t used in a vacuum; they are used by others. That is to say that female dominance is male-serving and for men. While female doms can definitely enjoy their role and actions, it may have never been about women in the first place.
However, this line of thought cannot as easily be applied to actions of male dominance. While both male and female dominance can be accomplished ethically through practices of RACK (risk-aware consensual kink), PRICK (personal responsibility informed consensual kink), and SSC (safe, sane, and consensual), it still operates within a larger context of violence against women and societal norms and messages that promote gender based violence.
Claiming that “portrayals of female dominance can operate as extensions of women’s subordination” sounds convoluted until we remember how even “the personal is political.” This case is no exception to how politics and feminist power struggles are ubiquitous.
Dominatrix is something I feel has been glorified by the media within these past few years, especially with the release 50 Shades of Grey books and movies. However, the number of men that believe women would like to dominate over is surprisingly not surprising. However, the sample size is somewhat small, I wonder what the results would be like with a bigger population size. It is also interesting for others to think women are subservient even with being the dominatrix in some ways. I feel that is suggesting that women only participate in being the dominatrix to fulfill the man’s sexual fantasies and not her own. While she may be sexualized, she is also sexualizing her partner and vise versa. If the women are being dominated, she is still sexualizing the man to fulfill her own needs and fantasies. Dominatrix does not only serve the man’s desires, but both of their desires. I would really like to address the topic in the last two paragraphs. I think this issue is something that we need to bring attention to because men can also get sexually harassed, assaulted and raped. There seems to be a preconceived idea that men must have wanted to pursued by women when that is not always the case. Unwanted advances go both ways.
Yeah but if there wasn’t a sub conscious, internalized gender aspect. Then dominatrix or dominant women would be ravaging upon the man too. I know it’s harder for a woman because of smaller size, not as a strong and anatomy. But it’s not impossible either. But it seems that very from dominant women go that route. They go the distinct gendered female way, which is via having the man be her servant or humiliate him and her toy, but it’s mainly a mind control thing. It’s rarely, consensually forceful. Male dominance seems more versatile, it can be humiliating the female and her a servant, but it’s also ravaging and looks brutal even though the woman enjoys it and it’s consensual. Like it may be called rough sex at times with the woman on top, but it rarely looks rough to me when the woman is fucking on top because of those many things and often her focus isn’t even on her trying to go hard on him, but her teasing him while she’s riding.
Whereas, male dominance is rough, and ravaging and DOES look rough when he’s fucking a woman and rough sex. And it may be his strength, but it’s also from him simply doing it and all about the actual dominance through fucking. The female domm doesn’t really use her dominance from the actual intercourse it’s self it seems, but the mental and other aspects like I said. Therefore, the reason of saying it’s sexualized and male serving. Through the actions, it’s almost the female is implying, “since I’m a woman, I can only dominant via typical female ways, and can’t dominate by force and aggression” “Only men can do that”.
What do you think Georgia?
Seems reasonable to me. I don’t have any data when we are another but so much of our behavior is socialized, as you can tell from cross-cultural comparisons, that it makes sense.
I agree that the dominatrix is still sexualized within the male gaze, as it is a subversion of the dominant male role in whichever situation the dominatrix may be in, and that male or female, it is never acceptable to violate anyone’s consent, and that rape denial by others is an issue with both genders. Something that alarmed me and particularly caught my attention was that there was advertising in which a woman was sexually attacking a man, as I notice a trend that within reversing power roles and inequalities in society, people have swung to the flip side of the power inequality, which is often not a sustainable or ethical way to reverse the harm of the other narrative. My question is: Can dominatrices be free from the framing within the male gaze? Dominatrices do not always serve men, and people in general can enjoy submission under dominatrices in safe, consensual ways. Or, are they held only within the farming of the male gaze because of the power perception inequality between men and women?
Well, in a female/female relationship you wouldn’t have the male gaze, for sure. I think it’s framed in terms of the male gaze because we sexualize women much more than men, and that probably relates back to inequality of objectifying women for male pleasure. She’s the object and he is the subject.
I think it’s free if the female dom perhaps sexualizes the male sub and him showing off his body like the woman does for the man. No, not the man dressing feminine, but stripped down I guess, but she’s actually turned on by it and not acting like she is. So the dom would probably have to be on that bell curve and more visual than other women. But also if uses aggression with her dominance and doesn’t stick to mainly the typical gendered female dominance ways. If she does, then it means she isn’t dominant simply in the female gendered stereotyped way, and that’s it’s not necessarily a male aspect but a woman can be rough and physically aggressive through her dominance from fucking too. Often it’s the male that only is that way from sexual dominance, but like I said, women can too. But often many dominatrix seem to choose to go the typical, stereotypical, sexualized, mind control dominance only or mostly upon a male sub. Some might say “wellI I’m not as a strong a man, I can’t actually force him down without it being goofy”. That’s not true, I mean since sex should be consensual, a male or female is allowing whatever is done to them by the dominant one right?
If a woman is controlling a man from her sex appeal and commands and he does them. Is he not allowing her to control and dominate that way? Yeah a man is stronger, but a sub allows and wants that to happen so a stronger male will still enjoy and let the female dom pin him down or tie him up and she will have control as a result. It’s like play wrestling. A man usually would win in an actual competitive wrestling match vs most women who are not brazilian ju jitsu experts or mma fighters or top collegiate wrestlers. But a man generally wins. But like playing around with a gf a guy can or will let his gf pin him down because it can be fun or sexy and a change up from the usual and lets it happen, but despite him letting it happen, she is still in control and dominating him.
I don’t generally post comments that are this long, but I will this time. Please see my policy
Men that think all women like to be dominated, which is not true. Women also like to be the ones in control. For me I would say that I like having control and dominating because it makes me feel good. Back then it wasn’t considered right for a woman to dominate because that was the man’s job. Many women are objectified as sexual and treated like an object and not a women. It’s not right that women are talked about differently than men on the subject about sex. Women shouldn’t be the ones that need to be submissive because we are all the same. There’s one topic about how raping a women or man is called fantasy rape which I was really surprised that something like that exists. Reading more about this topic has me in shock because in the article it says women are the ones that are mainly submissive to this kind of behavior but men aren’t because men don’t go through this.
I am a little confused by some of the points you make but thanks for chiming in.
I personally think that the image of “women who like being dominated in consensual sex” is basically the thought or secret message behind pornographic videos. When we think about it, nowadays, young people and society is really exposed to pornography and this industry really can spoil the mentality and perceptions of women . That is why, an extra data that could have helped would have been ” the average streaming hours of porn in the population.
Almost Half of men thought that women “high”. Men usually think because sometimes of misinterpretation. They think that because she is “hot”, she maybe like to have sex. Most of the time, girls who like having sex like to be dominated. Other factors comes along the way, who is exposed to porn?
Women on the other side mostly have a low interest in that. However the percentage of medium interest is as high as the low interest. I honestly think that a “woman who like to be dominated on bed” will not say it. Women are consistently run after by men and are also criticized a lot. “Like being dominated” is kind of their secret. When everyone knows it, you labeled. This data is consequently not enough precise to be a final result.
Well, it was an anonymous survey. So they weren’t announcing it to anyone.
So this is good news, right?’
Yeah I think so, I can be negative sometimes unfortunately, a lot to do with anxiety. But I try to turn negatives to positives. But it didn’t work but I feel positive for two reasons. I’m taking more chances than before because of my friend and as result,, I’m thinking and hoping it has become less nerve wracking the more I do so. So slowly coming out of my comfort zone, which I think will work out because I feel I have the personality to do so. I just have to stop caring about this and that or if someone is rude or awkwardness, etc. I mean you can add what you think too if it’s positive or not. I remember you said you thought many women don’t ;like cold approaches or something like that.
I agree that it can be a mixed bag. It just made me ironically even though she’s with someone or declined, feel I have an aura or look that’s nice to where even if a girl is with someone it’s taken well or flattering to her. She’s probably a nice girl too. But some guys unfortunately don’t always get that even if they approached fine and stuff and can still get a cold reaction from girls. But then other guy’s because of their look or maybe having a good feel with how they come across or combination, girl’s react better or find it flattering. I feel for some guys that deal with that though if they are away of how they are coming across and not being creeps. Some guy’s unfortunately maybe whether their looks or more importantly may get negative reactions simply because they just have an eccentric or awkwardness to them that’s not perceived well even if they are gentlemen or good guys. You can add your 2 cents though if you want to what I said or you think
Well, getting out of your shell is a good thing. Feminist, Gloria Steinem recommends that we do something that scares us every day. That’s how you get over your fears and phobias is to keep exposing yourself over and over again. And it helps you to develop talents, skills, resources …
Life also after us the opportunity to learn about what is real and substantial and what is more superficial, and even illusion.
“I have heard women called hot and gorgeous before. But there is a different feeling about knock out, bombshell, they just blow you away, destroy you. And I think it’s because of the way we socialize women and men and even the clothing that we have for both to wear. If a woman is wearing a form fitting low-cut blouse and guy is wearing baggy shirt and jeans — which is common — she’s going to have a bigger effect. And then google sexy images and pretty much all of them will be women. Even the fact that men tend to have a high and strong sex drive where is women’s goes up and down over the course of a month probably has an effect on how the Sex they are attracted to is perceived”
You have heard women called hot or gorgeous before. Well yes women get called that a lot. I said women call men hot, sexy , gorgeous or “bangin” . So yes not strong like bombshell, but you said because women are sexualized they get strong words toward them. But men get pretty strong words, just not like bombshell of course. But like I said hot is a strong word, Men can be called gorgeous too. You’d head women probably have felt that way about The hemsworth brothers or David Beckham in his 20s or early 30s (I think he’s in his 40s now right?) Women still find him hot though. Some guys are lucky where it seems like women find them good looking or even better looking as they age. It’s seemed like that way for George Clooney.
I’ve heard of both women and men being called hot and gorgeous. But only women are called knockouts and bombshells – their presents knocks you out, they explode your experience.
Being good looking won’t necessarily help you on these websites, and women using them are pretty out numbered by men, so that won’t help your chances either. On that first part, women often will try to get together with men who are more average in looks because they are less likely to think that average Joes are stuck up. So it would help in your profile to come across as modest.”
Yeah well I’m not cocky or nothing of vanity in my profile. Some guys may do shirtless selfies or gym pics which women don’t like because of that. I do have one shirtless pic, but it’s not a selfie and me out on a boat, smiling and having fun. No girls like in it with me. I don’t do that, and they say that’s not a good idea. The opposite sex in a pic with you or other people’s pics more often is just a friend or what not. But the viewer doesn’t know that and doesn’t know you so they can’t assume that’s true. It just looks bad so I have pics that show I’m in a social environment, like the background was people out in the water behind me. It’s only one shirtless pic the rest has me with a shirt on and I have the shirtless one like 2 or 3 photos down. The first two are me with a shirt on. My buddy thought it was good and fine and I asked his gf and his gf’s girlfriends and they saw nothing wrong with my shirtless pic because it’s not a vanity one like I said and made sense of me being shirtless because like I said it’s a social me out on the boat, on the water pic. When girls are bothered by shirtless pics from guys, it’s the flexing in the mirror, gym pose or shirtless selfy stuff that is cocky looking and vanity based.
I don’t know. I guess just keep trying, right?
Yeah I really use such apps, as just another outlet. I think most guys would hardly get dates if that’s all they used to meet women. So I’m taking more chances irl like I said, but I don’t want to delete the apps even if it’s much harder than irl, because ya never know. And tbh while it at times bruised my ego pretty good at other times it feels good too. Yeah I haven’t had dates work, but matches and message and when said women are pretty or hot. It’s not because I don’t think I can’t attract pretty girls, I’ve said I’ve been checked out irl be cute girls.
But it feels good feeling your pleasing to another girls eye who is conventionally pleasing to the eye not just to you but most likely to many men’s eyes. I say that because after good amounts of time on bumble or tinder and not likes or matches, it’s nice to get a reminder that you’re still attractive ha, because online dating, if you put too much meaning with online dating. You could have a complex ha. But from looking at it from the positive and learning to ignore the sporadic matches or time that can pass without any but you’re getting attention irl. That helps ignore that so it becomes simply a nice bonus when they do come because you’re not putting all your eggs in the basket for dating with such apps. They are just a very small part.
Well it makes sense to keep using the apps to keep your options open. But since you are competing with so many guys, just keep in mind that you shouldn’t take it personally when you don’t get a lot of response.
And looks aren’t everything. They are just the outer shell, facade. Ultimately not really important.
“Well, I notice that men use different words than women do to describe attractive members of the opposite sex: bombshell, knockout, fireball… I haven’t heard women use the same types of words to describe men so I don’t think that men have the same affect on us. Why? At least some of it is probably cultural. Women are not bombarded by sexy images of men that continually keep their libido going, and women’s sex drive does seem to rise and fall with their ovulation, rather than staying high and strong all the time, like men.
Being good looking won’t necessarily help you on these websites, and women using them are pretty out numbered by men, so that won’t help your chances either. On that first part, women often will try to get together with men who are more average in looks because they are less likely to think that average Joes are stuck up. So it would help in your profile to come across as modest.
I have three friends who found a perfect matches for them on match.com and OkCupid. Have you tried those?”
Well I didn’t call the older lady a fireball meaning because she’s hot. She’s like my mothers age lol. I meant that like as in, which fireball is used for like that free spirit, you know wild person or young heart. You know how some people even when they are old, they just have this energy and can still be wild despite their old age. They’re 50 or older, but still have that like in their 20s spirit ha. That’s her. Though I do believe men her age probably find her a knockout and I can see how she most likely was a knockout in her 20s and 30s. I meant like she noticed the beauty of the younger girls at the lake, one redhead girl was quite striking. But not only did she think I should talk to the girls, but said I was a handsome guy, I don’t know if the girls would find me physically attractive but she felt I was someone handsome enough for them anyway. I said why I didn’t because of my age vs the girls age,
I just feel weird, so the younger friend did. They were engaging with him for awhile, but it didn’t they didn’t leave with him nor he get their number, so it didn’t work out for him. But nothing bad for him. it’s a numbers game even for the best guys. The guy that approached them was handsome himself, but more age appropriate for them ha, like I said he was 25. Girls do use strong words like hot and gorgeous for guys though or even bangin. I’ve tried okcupid, no different. I think those paid ones are really no different and tough for most guys. Bumble atleast is the closest as far as ratio of men to women. It’s less lopsided compared to tinder, plentyoffish, okcupid and probably for match, etc too.
I guess match.com etc is a little easier for my girlfriends than for guys.
“Girls do use strong words like hot and gorgeous for guys.” Like what?
I think hot and gorgeous are strong words. There’s much less words to describe men’s appeal which is true. But hot and gorgeous are strong words in my opinion? You’ve never heard any women call a guy hot or gorgeous before? Women have used “bangin” towards guys too lol. There isn’t a word like knockout or bombshell for a guy like you said and because of the reasons you said. That would kind of be feminine too which we don’t really like feminine terms. It’s why guys don’t really want to be called pretty or beautiful but called handsome or very handsome is fine. Beautiful and pretty often have a soft, graceful, perhaps sensual aesthetic. We like to look good or know that, but rather have or be seen of a masculine rugged aesthetic pleasingness. Men like to look nice but in a strong virile way, not in a way that can imply dainty.
I have heard women called hot and gorgeous before. But there is a different feeling about knock out, bombshell, they just blow you away, destroy you. And I think it’s because of the way we socialize women and men and even the clothing that we have for both to wear. If a woman is wearing a form fitting low-cut blouse and guy is wearing baggy shirt and jeans — which is common — she’s going to have a bigger effect. And then google sexy images and pretty much all of them will be women. Even the fact that men tend to have a high and strong sex drive where is women’s goes up and down over the course of a month probably has an effect on how the Sex they are attracted to is perceived
“I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Can you give me the quoted material and then ask the question again?“
I’m talking about the guys reply to your post here and him talking about women approaching him and Europe and how he doesn’t approach women. Like what promoted him to make said reply to your post here? It has nothing to do with female dominatrix and sexual objectification of women.
Oh, ok.
”But to the extent that women do “marry up” patriarchy is the culprit. And patriarchy also encourages men to “marry down.” So it goes both ways. Regardless, the couple is uncomfortable when a woman has higher status than the man in the relationship. ”
Isn’t there data that suggests when the economic recession hit the U.S in 2008 a very significant amount of those who lost their jobs were men, and that a massive wave of divorces instigated by their wives followed suit? I might be wrong.
But in any case, I’m in another Country, and this Country’s national center for statistics indicates that 70% of all marriages(within this Country and population) result in marriage after 4 to 7 years of marriage, with 80% of all 2nd marriages resulting in divorce as well, and 90% of all third marriages ending up in divorce.
I get the feeling that monogamy, at least serial life-long monogamy to one partner alone, is not natural to the human species and that marriage was created by the patriarchy to ensure sexual access and a reproductive ”right” to a majority of men, end the institution of marriage, destroy the social construct of lifelong monogamy, and women will be far more happy than they are today, as marriage has been proven to be very good for men, but very bad for women in general.
A year or so ago, I was in a sexual relationship with a woman who was in a sexual relationship with 3 other guys, and I was also sleeping with other women, with everyone being aware of what was going on. Everyone was happy. There was no sexual jealously, no sense of sexual entitlement to anyone’s sexuality, and no one was wasting anyone’s time, as we weren’t looking for marriage and everyone knew it.
I don’t know whether the divorce rate went up when the American economy tanked, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it did. Whenever there is financial stress, whether a woman or a man loses a job, there tends to be more family strife.
Regarding whether monogamy is natural or not, some researchers actually surveyed people to find out what their preference was: monogamy, a few partners, or many partners. They had expected your typical bell curve with a few people wanting loads of partners, most people wanting a smaller number, and just a few people preferring monogamy. They were surprised that a typical bell curve did not arise. Instead, the opinions were polarized with one-half of both women and men preferring many partners and the other half of both women and men preferring monogamy. I suspect that many times monogamous people marry polygamist people and that doesn’t work out well. But a lot of divorce is also caused by disagreements on how to spend money and emotional stability issues.
How exactly would you get a bell curve on a question that is inherently binary, whether you want one partner or multiple partners?
They just asked how many partners they would prefer.
” get the feeling that monogamy, at least serial life-long monogamy to one partner alone, is not natural to the human species and that marriage was created by the patriarchy to ensure sexual access and a reproductive ”right” ”
I would say marriage was more about women securing exclusive access to resources than anything that would benefit men. As evidence, the fact that women end more marriages than men would seem to indicate they control this institution.
The earliest monogamous marriages don’t seem to have been patriarchal. The opposite. Early on the most dominant and successful men seem to have acquired several wives leaving other men with none. So the other men started being monogamous and that was attractive to women. Women preferred the monogamous men over sharing a husband. After a while monogamy became the norm and it led to more resources for children, resulting in larger brains and better survival rates.
It’s not true that women having their own man results in women having more resources. Do some research on Price’s Law. The square root of the number of people do half the work, and therefore acquire half the resources. So say you have 100 men. 10 men do half the work, therefore tend to acquire half the resources. This rule seems to apply to pretty much all areas of human endeavor, whether general industry, artists, singers, managers, etc.. Therefore, if women want a roughly equal share of the resources then half of them should attach themselves to the top 10% of men. And this is reflected in how women swipe on Tinder, they swipe on average to 14% of men, so they seem to have an intuitive understanding of Price’s law works. Men swipe 46% on average. Since men aren’t aiming to acquire resources, Price’s doesn’t apply, and men understand that. So women are continually playing out Price’s law, and giving their bodies to the top men, while the bottom men get nothing. This is reflected in historical genetic research, The only thing that changed it was Christianity, which is now dying out. Islam of course encourages this.
Researchers say otherwise. They say that monogamy led to children having more resources and support from fathers and bigger brains. Logical. One man sharing resources with many women and children would yield less resources per child than sharing with just one woman and children. Especially for the earliest humans, when the transition occurred.
‘I’these women, 95% are out at the bar or the dance club never approaching a man, but waiting for a man to approach them. They wait for the man to ask for the first date. On the dates they wait for the man to make the first move. Once they get in the bedroom and sexual relations commence, they lay there while the man carries out all the mechanics of the act.”
That number seems a bit too high for me. When I was 18 I moved to a Southern European Country from the U.S. I chose this Country because of it’s proximity to the sea, how warm the weather was, the cheap cost of living, and because due to the lifestyle people lead in this Country(most people don’t drive; they walk everywhere) and they don’t like fast food or soda, most young people are naturally slim.
I chose my college precisely because it had a 90% female attendance rate, and my undergraduate degree had 95 women and 3 guys, with one guy being homosexual and the other guy was overweight and thus invisible. and I was the other guy.
Since there were far less men, if those young women wanted a boyfriend they would have to be proactive to get one. My first college girlfriend approached me. First time I saw her I was just standing there confused at how attractive she was, and for a couple of weeks she kept sending me signals of interest and making herself ”open’ to being approached but I never did.
She ended up approaching me while I was in the student’s longue. introduced herself, asked me to go with her classmates to a fund-raiser event, asked for my phone number, asked for my social media, she was the first one to text/call me, and asked me out on a date. She was also the one to socially escalate until the relationship turned sexual.
My second college girlfriend also approached me out of the blue, and my third college girlfriend asked a common friend of ours to introduce us, and from there she was the one who asked me out and was also the one responsible for making our relationship sexual.
I’m 28 years old now, and what I do is when I go to nightclubs, or even if I’m inside a bus or a train, I look at a woman for a couple of seconds, until she notices me, and then I stop looking. I repeat what I just did, and then I wait for the woman to either approach me, if she’s attracted to me, or not. If she gives me strong indications that she wants to approach me – I don’t do it.
Sometimes I get approached, sometimes I don’t. Since all of the women are conventionally attractive, I don’t really mind who approaches me or doesn’t. I don’t approach women. I don’t flirt with women. Most of the time I hang out with women in male-female groups and I wait to be asked out on a date, and when that date happens, I pay for my part and she pays for her part. The dating dynamics in Europe are lovely. It doesn’t matter who asks for the date, the date bill is 50% shared.
The world would be a much better place if guys would wait for women to approach them, I feel. And no, this isn’t a case of (attractive) women only approaching hot men, because I’m below average(5’8” and 150lbs at 10% body fat) and I’ve been approached by women since I was 13.
I surveyed my women students and most of them have asked a man out.
I’ve never been asked out by a woman. I’ve tried sending the “signal”, but no. I suppose I’m about average in attractiveness. Sea doesn’t tell us how attractive he is. Maybe he’s in the right circumstance with the right good looks that those rare unicorns of women who ask men out are asking him out. Maybe if he tried harder, every woman he met would be open to going out with him. This is all anecdotal. Our Broadblogs host here reckons “most” (what, 51%?) have asked a man out. Sounds doubtful to me, but assuming true, I reckon they all asked the same guy out, the top of the pack, the best looking guy in the room. The other 98% of guys… nup. That’s what the Tinder stats say women only will swipe on the top tiny percentage of pretty boys. Men have a realistic understand of who is pretty, grouping women in roughly equal categories of attractiveness. But women rate the top few % as dateable and Tinder swipe the rest as “go away”.
While most of the women in my classes had asked out a man they didn’t ask out nearly as many men as men ask out women. Only one or two. Often only one, and if they were rejected they never did it again because they assumed that they were were rejected because what they were doing wasn’t socially acceptable.And about 1/3 of them had never asked out a man.
Do you think or I wonder if women can get intimidated by good looking men like how men can be of hot women. I’ve had women in passing who were cute, pretty or hot check me out whether at the gym, outside. Not like it happens a ton, but it happens, but despite having been told I’m handsome not just be family members (that doesn’t count lol) but other girls, even straight guy friends ha, I’ve been asked out twice in my life. I’m in my early 30s now. But last year in the summer I have some boat parties on the lake with friends and there were some girls that must’ve been friends or knew one of the guys that tied up with out boat and part of the group. Two girls, atleast one who was quite pretty. One of the other ladies amongst the many people, she’s friends with my buddy and knows others.
She’s older but a fireball ha. Anyway she’s seen me before, but she noticed the girls show up and asked me if I’m single. And she said “you’re a handsome guy, you should talk to those girls” Unfortunately these girls were too young, I wouldn’ve felt like a creep. They definitely had to be 20 years old. Like I said, I’m in my early 30s. It’s one thing like 10 years older if a girl is like mid 20s, but meh no. One of my friend’s younger brothers who I know and comes out a lot, and is a nice guy. He was next to me and I told the older lady my age and how they might be weird for me, but the younger brother she brought it up to. I’m secure with myself, he’s handsome dude as well, but it was more appropriate of him approach them as he was 25. Young guy and not creepy young 25 year old dude talking to 20 year old girl.
She might’ve said it to me regardless, but she’s a pretty blunt person though nice. And she could’ve said it without adding my looks too. And people often I think push people they feel is somewhere in a person’s league, so those girls were pretty but I apparently not out of their league physically. I think she also said that because she might not have realized my age too. I take it as a compliment, but even though I’m past between 32-35, I often have people think I’m like 26 or 27 which may be why she figured was not too far of age from the girls because I look younger than I am. Btw this part right here isn’t related to how a girl might be intimidated, but just idk, I can’t figure it out. Like I said, I’m not attractive to everybody obviously, but nice looking to others yet not being asked out or getting matches on bumble or some messages but no dates either while other guys that aren’t models have gotten some.
Well, I notice that men use different words than women do to describe attractive members of the opposite sex: bombshell, knockout, fireball… I haven’t heard women use the same types of words to describe men so I don’t think that men have the same affect on us. Why? At least some of it is probably cultural. Women are not bombarded by sexy images of men that continually keep their libido going, and women’s sex drive does seem to rise and fall with their ovulation, rather than staying high and strong all the time, like men.
Being good looking won’t necessarily help you on these websites, and women using them are pretty out numbered by men, so that won’t help your chances either. On that first part, women often will try to get together with men who are more average in looks because they are less likely to think that average Joes are stuck up. So it would help in your profile to come across as modest.
I have three friends who found a perfect matches for them on match.com and OkCupid. Have you tried those?
I’m curious what this reply had to do with this post though and female dominatrix that is worshipped and sexually objectified…
I’m not sure what you’re talking about. Can you give me the quoted material and then ask the question again?
And to add something, I guess I was approached well not approached but a girl that tried to talk to me. She was very drunk though. I was playing darts at a bar with my friends. My problem is I over think things, because being an introvert, it’s not second nature for me talking with people I don’t know. So I don’t want to talk too much when a person was just wanting to say something but not actually interested, because I’ve had that before with a drunk girl making a comment and then I tried talking. And I felt I talked too much or missed a sign. So the girl and her friends were right near us playing darts. And she said something about me shooting well (I actually suck but did alright) and I turned to her and joked about it for a minute, it didn’t seem like she said that or I assumed as in to get with me or something. I didn’t talk long, but my friend thinks I brushed her off.
I wasn;t really interested in her, but I felt bad if that was the case as I don’t like doing that. And I would’ve talked more but I thought it was because she was drunk and she kind of was loud and dancing lol and seemingly talk to everyone around her. So assumed she was a drunk that just wanted to spurt out stuff as I’ve seen it before ha. I wouldn’ve had her join the darts and maybe her friends could have after who knows, though it was just her that even paid attention to me. But then again it doesn’t seem like whatever brush off I unintentionally did bothered her too much or long as my friend told me to get a water and a reason to walk up where she was, which was that way and tell her I’m doing a team game next and her to join if she wants. But she was talking to a dude, a dude that was part of the group of guys that she and her gfs came in with and then later 3 other guy she was talking to, so I don’t think she was too bothered…..My buddy was like an older brother is hard on my sometime, but his gf atleast said I did fine, I could’ve engaged with her more, but I didn’t do as little as he made it out to be. I do appreciate him always pushing me though. It’s only taking me forever, but I’ve asked girls out, but I never really done so where it’s on me or try to without knowing them for a bit. But I took that chance and it actually felt good even though it didn’t work. I was eating a pancake place one morning. And he saw the anxiety I get just in general.
He said bluntly, “you’re getting rejected today ha”. Not because he didn’t think a girl could not interested in me that I asked out, but for me to take that chance in a different setting. I didn’t really talk to waitress much which is why it felt tough or one thing where a waitress may flirt or something like that. She was nice and noticed me. But he told me to ask her out, there was a survey paper, He told me to write my name and number on it and to tell her I’d like to take her out sometime or something and my number and give her it. I don’t remember exactly, but I was nervous because I wanted to remember how he said it because he does have a lot of experience with all that. And I was nervous because there were other people around and I don’t like doing stuff where others can see what’s happening. I’m paranoid sometimes. It took me like ten minutes just to do it lol after eating. I was looking at other items at the shop but she was cleaning up a table and I did it and we walked out. I mean it was genuine and she wouldn’t have texted me if was making something up, but she not that long she text me. She said how flattering it was and it made her day. She’s seeing someone though, but like I said it made her day. I know girls make up having a bf sometimes, but I felt it was honest as most girls would simply just not text a guy, I mean I wasn’t expecting a text back, I knew doing that, I’m either getting a text or not.
So this is good news, right?
Shit, Europe sounds a lot better than the US in that sense. You wouldn’t like it in the US if you waited for women to approach unless you’re mode good looking. You feel you’re below average in looks so it would definitely not work out. But I wonder what made you feel you’re below average? Many women like lean guys, which 150lbs would be. And at 5’8 you’re shortish but not really atleast not to america standard. I’m 5’8 as well, but the average male height in america is 5’9, which means that’s only an inch below average. I think the “average range in america” is 5’8-5’10 for men. 5’8 is a tall woman, at 5’8 you’re taller than a great number of women too. You could have met more women with such one sided classes too if you talked to women who flirted with you. And why don’t you flirt with women? Nothing wrong with flirting, and I’m curious why these women that are attractive approach you then if you’re below average in looks? Just looking around at night clubs often won’t get you any action in america if you did that. So you’re lucky with doing that as you’d be celibate for awhile in america not approaching women.
Males are usually always considered to be the more dominant gender. Women are the submissive. Yes, some men do wish to be the submissive but I feel as though the majority of the men want to be the dominant. Society has impacted this because men are expected to initiate and take charge of things. Males are the alpha of the home and usually the bed. They guide the way and the females follow their lead. Women are seen as being more delicate and are listeners. They are expected to follow whatever they are told to do. There are lots of ways dominance can be asserted into the sexual life of the two. One is through BDSM, which can use bondage and other means of dominating your partner. This is mostly done by the male to the female to try and please her and get her under his control.
Can we do live in a culture that constantly eroticizes violence against women. Much more than violence against men.
”Men pay more for car insurance
If a woman and a man are both in a car, he is more likely to take the leader role and drive. So he’s also more likely to get into an accident. And guys are more likely to drive recklessly, or drunk, or both in attempts to prove manhood.”
That’s true. Especially young men are more prone to drive without a care for their personal safety or for the safety of the people who are on the same road, because they feel like they need to prove something to themselves, or they just don’t care about the consequences.
That’s why I haven’t been inside a car in the last 10 years. I don’t catch rides and I don’t even have a driver’s license, because even if I am in a car with a female driver, chances are the other people driving cars are men.
”Family court is against father’s rights
The best way to determine custody is “best interest of the child.” Women tend to be given physical custody because they are more likely to sacrifice work for family, and so they end up with a closer bond to the child.”
I disagree with almost everything MRA’s say, but it seems to be true the lack of reproductive rights, if you are a man.
A woman can decide to abort without having to ask for the man’s input. She can give the kid to adoption. She can get pregnant without ever asking for her partner’s permission(stops taking the pill on purpose), and there are men out there raising kids who aren’t theirs thinking these kids are their biological children.
A couple of months ago I was reading the newspaper as I do daily. In one of the news, this middle-aged guy was suing his ex-wife because she committed paternity fraud, and the Court ruled against him, telling him he had to continue paying up because the girl had formed an emotional bond with him.
The way I see it, if you’re a guy and you really want kids, store your sperm while you’re young and healthy, get a vasectomy, tell every woman you date what you did, and if women aren’t okay with that – use the services of a surrogate mother. A friend of mine didn’t want to get married nor did he want a relationship, so he went to California and spent 200k on a egg, and now his son belongs to himself and to himself alone.
The reason why women should have more rights over reproductive decisions is because their bodies – and usually their finances (since men often leave) – bear are the bigger burden.
And even when the female is dominant it’s really not dominant compared to a man’s way that is physical, but more mental by the woman. And even though women can fuck a man hard more often it’s more of him begging for sex and humiliating himself to get with her and being under her control. Her sexual power that dominates him.
Women now a days I believe want to be more dominant when it comes to consensual sex and I believe this is because they want to prove to men in a way they are just as controlling when it comes to sex as it does with everything else going on in the world. Women believe that men try and control everything and that women have no will or power over what they do and only men can control what they do. Women have recently been pictured as being able to do everything a man can do if not more in recent years and because of this men believe they are very empowering but also with this being said they have also been trying to be more of the dominant one when it comes to sex. They have been the ones who have been wanting to be on top of the man and this is a way to show dominance in their relationship.
I would love to have data on this overtime to see how things may have changed. Will be interesting to see how things change in the future.
As a women I can relate to that 41% of women who think that being mildly dominated during sexual interactions is pleasing. In sexual relationships women want to feel like their partner is strong and can take control but also not in an extremely abusive way. However, everything should be voluntary and both partners should be in agreement at all times so things don’t take a different unpleasing perspective because moods change and one day something your partner liked before can become unpleasing and make them upset if they’re forced to do something. One thing I have never experienced is witnessing a men trying to be dominated by a women. What I’ve been told by men is that when they’re involved in sexual relationships they like to feel manly and like to be in control but I’ve never heard them say they want women to take over. However, I’m sure that my sample size is much smaller and you can’t get accurate data from that. I will say that everything is good in moderations regardless of gender in my opinion.
Thanks for sharing your perspective on this.
I understand how men went to be in control, but I find it interesting how sexual dominance correlates to masculinity as in protection. The only reason masculinity matters is for it’s biological use, as in a man showing his prowess, ability to protect and do masculine duties for his woman. Confidence is something that should not be gender specific but confidence is often used for men and the appeal of a man’s confidence. So let’s just hypothetically have confidence to mean a strong masculine quality. If that’s the case, it would seem that a man actually being open and enjoying being submissive to have confidence.
And the man to feel he has to dominate a woman sexually because it’s manly or prove this, seems insecure. But yet it’s the dominant man that’s more masculine? Sex is not a competition, I mean it’s consensual or I hope so. So in that case, neither is competing or such, but having fun and allowing each other to dominate. Even though men are stronger, women are still allowing this dominance too. If a woman isn’t enjoying a man’s roughness or dominance and wants it to stop, it stops or holds off right? It doesn’t for a rapist, but decent human beings which most men are and because sex would be consensual for people. I don’t know how a man allowing a woman to force him down makes him weak or less of a man in the same sense. It shows to me he has the confidence to not feel less of a man for letting a woman take control and ravish him. Is it not the insecure man that always feels he has to constantly prove how manly and strong he is? And here’s an example.
Saying a man who dominates sexually is more masculine than a balanced man who like submission. Seeing it that way is like seeing it was a burly man who beats a petite woman at arm wrestling and after doing so, pumps his first in the air and has a huge celebration lol. Like that would look stupid and I’d sarcastically be like “yeah tough guy here”. Compared to the dude play wrestling with his gf or wife and she pins him down at times and it doesn’t phase him. I’d see the latter dude as more of the confident masculine guy because he doesn’t have to prove his manly dominance and can let go and enjoy the other side. It’s foolish to correlate which I think must happen of a man’s sexual dominance to mean his ability to protect his woman or cut lumber or fix stuff and other masculine use or something, you know biological meanings to stuff. I don’t know the toughest bad asses guys that I wouldn’t mess with are the dudes who can wear pink polo shirts, be like metro sexual pretty much and don’t give a fuck what others think. They are humble, don’t bother people but can throw down if need to protect themselves and others. And ironically I’ve seen this macho bravado tough guys are the one’s starting problems and carrying on their sleeve how tough and macho they are, but then are the wimps when a throw down happens ha
You make a good point that the men who feel most strongly they have to be dominant aren’t actually confident enough to show another side of themselves, like submission. All human beings are capable of both.
Of course we also eroticize Male dominance against women in mainstream media and in pornography much more than vice versa and everyone tends to internalize that.
Ha ha! The miracle of modern technology. When I say porn it often comes out corn. 🙃”
ya never know. Corn could be raunchy to some people…..;) ha
Too true!
Interesting information and data based the sampling of men and women from your classes. It was not surprising that men and women had an opposite interest level when posed with the question whether women like to be dominated. I would agree that society ‘s view of sexual domination suggests as was pointed out that males see this as more of a fantasy and they view the dominatrix as a sex object. Women have historically seduced even the most powerful men, to control and dominate them, but men are willing participates. On the other hand, men are typically bigger and stronger than their sexual partner and rough sex for the women might not necessarily be intended by the man. That said, some women and men may enjoy a more dominate sexual partner than others. Society does perpetuate the man in the dominate role over the women which becomes problematic for men who feel unable to live up to the expectation.
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
or for men tired of feeling they are inadequate or not measuring up to masculine ideals, because they don’t want to be dominant in bed and like to be submissive and may feel shunned upon by society. Therefore hiding it because of feeling shame or less of a man because they feel women may think of them as less of a man and not holding up the standard because men the women have had sex with before were dominant in bed so women turned on or desire men who are dominant in bed. Just another way people can be put in boxes.
Yes, you’re right, that is a good example of putting people in boxes — gendered boxes. Maybe I will have to re-post this at some point and include some of these points.
The blog, Dominatrix: Worshipped and Objectified, revolves around the topic of sex and dominance. Do women and men like to be dominated in sex? It tunes out women and men both like to be dominated in sex. However, even if a woman is dominating a man while having sex, it is still being gendered. This also brings the topic of why men and women are sometimes disbelieved when they are actually raped. Since a woman likes to be submissive during sex then it’s harder to believe if she is ever rapped. The same thing goes for men. Because men are portrayed as always being up for sex, the chances someone will believe they are actually raped are lowered. This is an interesting topic. Even if men and women like to be submissive during sex, this should not have any effect on whether they are rapped or not. I mean, just because someone likes rough sex does not mean they always want sex and sex just with anyone.
That picture you have on this post really brings home to what dominatrix or female dominance often is or seems to be, which shows why it’s gendered like I said. You know what’s also unique about female dominance and also why I feel it’s so gendered and about a woman’s sexual power than anything about ravaging. I’ve noticed from female dominance and what can be female sexual dominance or a thing is the dominatrix does a lot of teasing. Where it’s her clothing or not being completely nude and teasing the male sub and having her beg for more. Or uses props or does things that gets the man ultra turned on either has sex with the guy but stops just before he orgasms or doesn’t allow him to orgasm. And she holds off and tells him he won’t until she orgasms or him to do everything she wants him to do whether it’s gross stuff or him being a sissy or humiliating him, whatever. Or she stops just before he orgasms and continually does that and that’s apparently dominance, like I said the mental stuff. Or even yet she will please and stimulate the dude whether bj, handjob or other ways, and does everything to get her feeling good and so horny, even rubbing her vagina on on his dick or straddling him, but doesn’t have sex with him.
You see how much seems kind of patriarchal relation though? Like it’s supposed dominance, but this power and dominance is the age old sexual power being used by the woman. Withhold of sex? Teasing? Like I don’t believe this is done with male dominance. There might be teasing, but still the dude generally ravages the woman, yet that doesn’t seem to happen with a dominatrix like I said. I’ve seen dudes say, well some dominatrix use a dildo or strap on, on the guy. But if you think about that, even though that’s something rough and a physical domination. Isn’t that also gendered if you think about it? To me it says a woman can not dominate via just intercourse, she has to either use her sexual powers (her seduction, tease and such) to mind control the guy to submit him or she has to mimmick a dude and to penetrate a man, because even though it’s a woman. The mighty phallus is true dominance, so anything less even though not true and because it reminds such of a woman is not dominance.
I’m curious if that’s the reason to sexism with rape laws. And I don’t know if it’s simply because society sees men as not vulnerable and women are insatiable. But I think things were changed in america but many countries in the world even in the uk, don’t see it possible for a woman to rape a man or consider it that. And in the uk, it’s only sexual assault if a woman has sex with a man drugged or unconscious and not able to consent or forced on him. And it’s because the basis of rape in the uk is penetration and specifically a penis penetrating an orifice. Therefore, stupid semantics means that if a woman has forced non consensual sex with a man, he can’t be raped because he’s not penetrated. Physical trauma is not necessary for rape to be horrible as it’s the mental trauma that is the worse and longest effect emotionally. But I think it’s seen as more brutal, though a man can be physical hurt from a woman forcing sex on a man. This underestimating doesn’t just hurt women, but hurts men as it over estimates men as being invincible. just because of some perceived (false perception) or men not able to be harmed or vulnerable just because they have a dick.
Yeah I was thinking about the picture I used in how unsexy he looks compared to the dominatrix who is having power over him.
I find reply was confusing and they seem to vary from place to place. In some places it can be called rape even if no penis is involved, and others not. And maybe it is because we think of men is being dominant that the penis is key? Or maybe it has to do with old laws such that the woman’s “purity” was so important which may stem from when they used to buy and sell women and virginity came at a higher price.
Thanks for all of your interesting ideas Bob!
Even with that, it’s interesting that there’s a view that the owner of a phallus (men) can’t be physically harmed or less harm, just because it’s a penis. Sometimes it seems like there’s an overestimation of men being invincible or the penis being so. I think it’s because it’s comfortable culturally for men to feel vulnerable especially toward a woman. So the old patriarchal views that protects a man’s ego that he can’t be harmed or it’s less so by the sex with a vagina. Because a man is mighty and so is his penis right? Women can be vulnerable, but not a man right? ‘Because if he is vulnerable or could be harmed by a woman, then he would be a beta man right?
It makes me wonder if there’s something underlying male insecurity to old rape laws like that, that don’t see a man as a victim to a woman or a woman being able to carry about just as bad as a sex crime and labeled as rape if forced non consensual intercourse from a woman on to a man. And what did you think about what I said about how it’s gendered too or what I noticed with dominatrix stuff having to do with teasing the man? Or stimulating him, but almost having sex, but then not doing so? Stuff like that just plays into gendered female sexual power it seems as you don’t see male dominance being that way. There might be some teasing and other stuff, but ultimately the man goes to down on the woman with rough sex and ravaging. Just interesting the differences again. It shows culture plays into the mind, maybe subconscious mind of women even women who are supposed to be dominant.
Yeah, patriarchies don’t like to see men as victims. In fact in French most words have both the male and female form but “victim” only has a female form.
Hang on a minute. As soon as you suggest men might be oppressed, feminists have a mental breakdown. Now you’re telling me that refusing to acknowledge male victims is a sign of the patriarchy? Who knew that feminism was a patriarchal plot.
Sexism against men comes from sexism against women
Whenever MRAs point out sexism against men, it turns out that the problem is sexism against women. A few examples:
Men pay more for car insurance
If a woman and a man are both in a car, he is more likely to take the leader role and drive. So he’s also more likely to get into an accident. And guys are more likely to drive recklessly, or drunk, or both in attempts to prove manhood.
Solution: Stop seeing men as leaders. And stop ranking men above women, because that leads them to do risky things to prove they deserve the status of “man.”
Family court is against father’s rights
The best way to determine custody is “best interest of the child.” Women tend to be given physical custody because they are more likely to sacrifice work for family, and so they end up with a closer bond to the child.
Solution: If women and men equally worked and parented then the best interest of the child would be physical custody by both parents.
Or, men could become stay-at-home dads. When they make the sacrifices and become closer to the child, the child’s life becomes less disrupted if dad gains custody.
Hypergamy
MRAs complain that women tend to “marry up” — to marry men who outrank them in earnings and status. And they don’t like it because it leaves lower-earning men out of the marriage market.
Actually, in the US women and men typically marry someone of equal status.
But to the extent that women do “marry up” patriarchy is the culprit. And patriarchy also encourages men to “marry down.” So it goes both ways. Regardless, the couple is uncomfortable when a woman has higher status than the man in the relationship.
Solution: Gender equality so that men won’t feel threatened by successful women, and women won’t feel they must have a partner who is above them in status.
Turns out, as women gain equality, men gain equality, too. Because you can’t have it any other way.
And those are just a few examples.
What did you think about the withholding sex part of dominatrix like I said. That’s interesting to me and sure seems another example of the gendered differences of male and female domination. Stuff like a man being teased or stimulated but not having sex with the man is seen as domination some reason. As you can see that’s all mental, but not physical.
Somehow I skimmed over and missed that part but it’s a really good example. Men are supposed to want sex all the time and women are supposed to limit and be chaste (and chased) So women are supposed to hold out more. I wish I had included that in the post.
“After searching my files I found a sample of my students, 83 women and 63 men who are not gay/lesbian (because I wanted a sample of people who have sex cross-sexually). I had wondered what my male students believed about women and what women felt, themselves:”
How was the question phased and was there context or a definition of “being dominated”? I would think “Do you like your partner to take control or be assertive in the bed room?” vs “Do you like to be dominated by your partner in the bed room?” would get very different responses. When does taking control or being assertive turn into dominating?
Good question.
I have a list of bedroom activities and at the very top I put:
How appealing do you find these activities in REAL LIFE not fantasy?
7. BDSM (bondage/dominance/sadism/masochism)/you are dominant?
8. BDSM (bondage/dominance/sadism/masochism)/you are submissive?
And we had discussed in class what sadism and masochism meant because a lot of the students didn’t know. Just explaining what BDSM stands for.
And interestingly the responses I got were pretty similar to the survey of thousands of adults in Montreal, although that study was asking about fantasy.
Why did you bring up activities of dominance or submission mainly to bdsm stuff?
Well, it’s something that both women and men might do. Equalizes it in terms of the question.
Interesting and yeah I could see more women they like their partner taking control and being assertive in bed, which I feel is dominance for the person in control if aggressive and with such attitude. Like those are one in the same, but some can see differently or mean different things. A woman can like that stuff with a man in control but not see him as dominant though because she sees the bdsm stuff as dominance, but not the man in control as dominant. There’s “vanilla sex” dominance and bdsm dominance, but still dominance, just in different ways.
I think taking control and being assertive becomes dominance is when it’s rough sex, like a dude pounding a woman hard from behind while lightly pulling her hair or spanking her ass. It seems a lot of women like that, and being submissive like that, so in that sense more would probably say that want that if that’s what was brought up as dominance compared specifically bdsm stuff. I think women and men voting might’ve often perceived dominance meant in a kinky, bdsm way and well not many into that therefore, saying no to submission. It’s interesting though and to see what women’s votes would have been if asked question about them being ravaged or them dominated not in the bdsm way but rough sex way. I feel more than half probably would’ve said yes with the former compared to the latter, which wasn’t as high seeing from the results shown on this blog post. What do you think Georgia?
I do have a question about rough sex somewhere. And that sounds like what you are describing. I have to go find the data but my memory is that women were much less interested in that than men thought they would be. Like pretty low interest.
I’m that’s good. I noticed the clip wasn’t shown of tag body spray so people can see the visual example. But yes I like this and it is interesting how we think “ oh there is female dominance and that we have the reverse of it”.
The reality is that female dominance is very gendered because the dominance often and power is based on female sexual power with seduction that controls the man, not generally from her roughing him up just from sexual intercourse. If there’s roughing up stuff it’s bdsm related, whether hitting the dude, but dominatrix stuff is rarely go all “cave woman on the guy” be forceful and rough, brutal intercourse. Yet interesting enough, even with mind control on the woman. Almost all male sexual dominance turns to the woman being ravage and fucked in a rough manner does it not? Yes it’s easier for men to do so because of size and strength and obviously women can’t generally do that or to sams level but a woman can still forcibly push a man back and duck him hard and be ultra agressive. But dommes don’t seem to do that which makes me wonder if it’s actual female dominance or “playing at female dominance” because it turns men on and to male gaze like you said. And if this is such women’s sub conscious to still feel this is the way to do things.
I debated showing the video and was worried about romanticizing rape, so didn’t. You can find it in the comments on “9 PM curfew for toxic masculinity” if you want. A compromise of sorts.
True. What did you think of the video? It did seem to play into the story that women are insatiable and it’s cute and sexy when women get really sexually, forcibly aggressive toward a man. You see the dude freaked out in the beginning or confused and startled from the women’s aggression. But then you see him smiling at very end of clip when a bunch of the (beautiful) women were all lying on top of him. We sure know we wouldn’t give that a pass or find that cute if it was the reverse. I understand how it’s scarier for men being aggressive of course because a majority of rapes are committed by men and then a man from strength and size standpoint is a much greater physical threat to a woman than vice versa. But interesting the complete opposite feelings each provoke. A sexually aggressive man is threatening whereas, women are harmless so it’s just cute sexy or harmless if women are being sexually forceful
Yeah I think that’s true in terms of mainstream media. But a lot of porn makes women seem like they’re afraid and then they are loving being raped at the end. At least that’s what I hear.
woman can still forcibly push a man back and duck him hard ”
Don’t you just love auto correct? I know it’s because of censorship or not correcting a work to slang or profanity, but I thought I changed it only to send it out that way. I thought the sex I was brining up was already kinky, but damn auto correct is a freak and involves ducks in the mix for some reason. I’m trying to bring up regular submission and dominance sex and auto correct wants bestiality in the mix apparently. You think it’s fun when a woman f*cks you hard, but it’s nothing until she ducks you hard…..
Ha ha! The miracle of modern technology. When I say porn it often comes out corn. 🙃
I’d like to interview these 45% of women who supposedly are not interested in a submissive sexual relationship. Here’s my prediction… these women, 95% are out at the bar or the dance club never approaching a man, but waiting for a man to approach them. They wait for the man to ask for the first date. On the dates they wait for the man to make the first move. Once they get in the bedroom and sexual relations commence, they lay there while the man carries out all the mechanics of the act.
In today’s hyper feminist college environment, what self respecting woman wants to admit wanting to be submissive? But you break the question down into its component behaviors and see if women are actually involved in submissive relationships, then you might find out something different. Their entire mating ritual is characterized by submission.
I only remember one female who approached me first sexually… a crazy girl in the 8th grade who may have been trolling me. And I only remember one woman who “f*cked me hard”. Memorable because of how unusual it was. If the human race waited for female sexual dominance, I think it would die out.
And yeah, fair point about the dominatrix. 95% of these women are getting paid for it, right? They are bending to the power of male cash.
Well that’s not the type of Dominance I’m talking about here.
I have talked about that topic in another post though: How Sex Creates Gender
Which begs the question though. Why is it men who are submissive and paying women to be dommes. Why are they paying dommes $ so the man is forced or commanded to do gross things or the man to be humiliated or treated like a “sissy”? It’s weird because it then seems that men are more averse to a very sexually aggressive, dominant woman from just the ravaging sex sense. Whereas women who are submissive seem to want the rough sex, but less into doing gross stuff or being humiliated as in looking like a fool for the doms pleasure. interesting. Seems like weirdly enough it’s more bothersome or harder for a man to give up control and allow a woman to physically ravage him than mentally controlling him
Many men who go to prostitutes pay them to do things that they would be too embarrassed to ask a woman they know. So maybe a man would be embarrassed to take the submissive side. But if he were doing this with a dominatrix who he is paying it doesn’t matter so much.
I think the exact opposite survey would be interesting.
You know, I do have the data for that but I’d have to look around for it. I remembered that I wrote up my analysis for a chapter in a book I’m working on “What women want and what men think they do“ which is actually still in draft. So I only have a record of that side of it without looking around for the original data – which I have stacks of. Interestingly, my data fit fairly closely to a survey of thousands of Montreal adults. That sample found just under half of men also had fantasies of being dominated. But I can’t tell you without finding the original data what the sample of my women thought men wanted. I can tell you that women tended to be much more accurate in predicting what men want but I think that particular question is trickier and I can’t remember what the women said.
I look forward to you finishing your book.
Me too!