Why Men Objectify
Some men wonder why they objectify women.
So Jayson Gaddis asked men on his Facebook page why they thought they did, and then he wrote about it for The Good Men Project.
What is objectification? Jayson describes it as:
Staring, gawking, or checking out women and their bodies and body parts. Seeing them as objects instead of actual people, and thinking of them in a sexual way.
Why do they do it?
Most blame “nature.” As one man exclaimed,
I love looking at women. They’re just amazing. It’s part of my biological make up to think that they’re beautiful.
Jayson believes biology plays a role since men are hardwired to look for mates and procreate. But he thinks cultural conditioning is involved, too. To paraphrase:
In men’s culture, it’s acceptable to objectify women. Men bond around it. And, it’s pervasive and all around us. Notice where men buy stuff, there are often photos of women present. I can barely go on any male-focused website now without being hit at some point by a tiny, physically attractive, disproportioned airbrushed woman looking at me.
Some men objectify because the “feel good” feeling acts like a drug or pick me up. Objectification can fill an empty place inside:
I’m stuck in the belief that that feminine essence is outside of myself. I’m alienated from the larger truth of my Completeness as a human being. That sexy, juicy, radiant paradise is not inside myself, therefore it’s an object I obsess about outside myself and I treat it like entertainment. This insight leads me to believe I haven’t spent enough time balancing the relationship with My (whole) Self.
Others want gratification without any real work or risk of rejection.
I objectify women cause it’s “safer.” I receive an immediate gratification, a thrill if you will, albeit superficial, it does keep me safe at least for a time from annihilation — from a treacherous road of intimacy and vulnerability — the risk of being really seen and connected with – or actually rejected!! Yes, that’s it — it’s an avoidance of rejection… Intimacy takes a lot of work, courage and commitment. Objectifying is an “easy” road out of the potential of rejections.
Maybe some men simply enjoy the sense of being with many women, polygamous, a way of living that doesn’t appear to be a possibility in our culture. One man says he likes to play with the fantasy and the illusion like he does with porn:
The most fun and exciting and ego gratifying times in my life have been when i have embraced it and danced with it and gave myself permission to play with the illusions, projections, feelings, etc.
Like this man, many say they seek approval or self-esteem. I’m not sure what that means. Might a man’s self worth rise when he imagines the women enjoying his attention?
Or, does self-esteem rise from gaining a sense of power over women? After all, they dressed and adorned themselves to please men – and thus, “him.”
Some talk of the power women have over men – making them melt and creating unrequited desire. But by objectifying women a man can feel superior. “He” is subject while “she” is an object that exists for his pleasure and purposes.
The fear of annihilation has been cited before, but one man describes it in a way that echoes this fear of female power. He seeks “to avoid the terror of annihilation — being reabsorbed back into the feminine.”
Whatever’s going on, Jayson suggests men consider how objectification is working for them and the women in their lives. For those who feel it’s not working, here’s how some have dealt with the matter:
What I’ve found works best for me so far is being a yes to everything in my own experience and in what’s happening AND at some point in my development simply realizing that objectification is not enough for me … I love appreciating and experiencing another human being for more than just her physical traits. What I prefer physically doesn’t in itself inspire me to want to connect with a woman, and doesn’t in itself have me feel attracted. The attraction and inspiration simply are there or not independent of how she looks.
Or this:
The answer for me was to stop trying to get this woman but use that energy to make myself the best possible me I could become. A me that now has confidence because I am self assured, self respecting, and full of self accepting unconditional love. Part of becoming that man means that I must accept and own the truth of my motives and be willing to see the motives of others. That is when I was finally able to let go of the fantasy and see this woman for who she really is inside.
My biggest life breakthrough and victory came as a result of that growth.
As a result, something incredible is happening to me now. Something wonderful has started growing in the void where my fantasy used to live. It’s a genuine curiosity and appreciation for all woman. Especially for all the women who actually live and display their authentic self and freely give their love to all as an expression of their femininity.
Or this,
Once I get connected to me again, I notice how I can appreciate a beautiful woman and I’m in my body, connected to my heart. It has a totally different quality. She feels it and I feel it.
By the way, objectification and desire are two different things. And men are rarely objectified. See these two articles:
For more on all this, go to The Good Men Project, where you might also like Five Reasons Why Honest Sex is Awesome Sex.
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Posted on May 15, 2017, in men, objectification and tagged men, objectification, psychology, sex and sexuality, sexism. Bookmark the permalink. 66 Comments.
BroadBlogs 
As a male, I can definitely attest to what I call the ‘bro effect’. When a group of males (in my experiencer usually younger males) congregate, blatantly gawking and commenting on the women passing by. Also a common feature of this mystical mob mentality esque effect is the discussion of women in a triumphant manner; as if our sexual experiences were coveted trophies to be admired by our manly peers. I can’t specifically pin down one exact reason why I believe males do this; but I would definitely say that in my experience as a young American male, I’ve definitely noted how we’ve been conditioned to believe “it’s acceptable to objectify women.” I’d also have to agree that for some young men in this new era of internet accessibility, the virtual realities hosted through social media and pornography has made our young American males fearful of rejection.
For all the glory of interconnectedness the internet provides, it’s ironically done a disservice by disconnecting young males from reality. It’s as if some young men have become untrained in the customs of what is appropriate when interacting with the community at large. Also, the fear of experiencing rejection is intolerable when you have the option of pornography and objectification of women readily available. In my interactions with other young males, I’ve noticed how enraged some of us can be when experiencing rejection. I think on some level, males have been conditioned to believe that they’re entitled to a woman’s affection. And I’d definitely contend that some young males feel that just because they show a woman some attention for a week or gift her with some flowers that they’re entitled to bed them.
We must break this tradition and do better as a collective to instruct our males to view everyone, not just females, as human beings first and foremost. When we, as males, can do our part to reflect inwardly and comprehend how we shouldn’t put others on pedestals or expect anything out of them. I’d suggest instead we apply our energy towards self development and as stated in the post, evolve into a more “self assured, self respecting, and…self accepting” individual.
I saw a really bad case of objectification when I was little. I was with my sister at a pawn shop. I could see this couple a few feet from us trying to negotiate a deal with the pawn shop owner. The girl would try to suggest a offer, but the man told her to be quiet because men were talking. She would try to suggest another offer, but the man repeatedly told her that she should be quiet. The pawn shop owner even told the man to not to that to her. The man said that you can’t talk to my property that way. At the time I didn’t realize that this was what female objectification was. The man was treating her like an object with no emotions or feelings. Thinking back to that vivid memory, I hope that she has gotten out of that relationship. Women don’t deserve to be treated like an object. I also hope that this level of objectification is happening less nowadays. The memory had took place 7 years ago. I just hope that if any women finds themselves in a relationship where they are objectified, to get out right away.
Wow. That kind of freaks me out.
You certainly have a wonderful skill for provoking thought and introspection, Georgia.
As you might expect from my previous posts* I will go for hereditary genetic impulse–root cause–both in how men see women and how women see men (although, obviously, I cannot pretend to know the psychology of women (who the hell can?). 😀
It is clear to me that in our evolutionary past, nature demanded, instinctively, that the male must take a female (or assent to a female selecting him, depending on the particular troope/society). There had to be, at some point, a degree of selectivity among several options-the particular attraction. Perhaps it was similar to other species–the female selecting via physical properties, e.g., unique coloration, size, masculinity, less body hair, etc.–or by alluring demonstrations such as winning fights for the right to copulate (domination).
These instincts, as I’ve mentioned before, became mere impulses once we evolved a greater magnitude of consciousness and could override the instincts via reason.
So, I believe the impulse to assess possible mates is still here in our genes (even when we have a “permanent” mate.
I freely confess that I am initially attracted to females who display what hits me as aesthetically pleasing and sexually attractive. But I feel, as well, that attractiveness is not the entirety of a woman. For example, I am attracted to women who have particular physical attributes and are at least compatible in intellectual proficiency and personality. It bothers me not a whit if a woman is demonstratively more intelligent than I. In fact, I find that attractive as well.
Thus, I do not feel that I objectify women even though I admire the female body–there must be substance to a person–but I still cannot escape the impulse to include physical properties in the selective assessment. I believe this to be quite normal (possibly entirely subjective, although I don’t think so). Exactly what is the balance between the physical and the intellectual? I’m not sure, but the intellectual personality must be there.
I think many women would assess men in a similar manner–though impulse and intellect.
= = =
*
I do love bonobos. 😀
By the way, coming in late on this conversation and scanning some of the comments, I could have missed it, but I’m sure you know that all three of the Abrahamic religions are strongly patriarchal as well, but of course, as mentioned, Islam is by far the strongest.
Considering the patriarchal religions, I recall a theological debate I was having years ago with a female “fellow” student. I made an argument in which I used the pronoun “it” with reference to the god of Abrahamic religions. She strongly objected, insisting that “God is a He!” I asked why so, does he have a penis (it was tongue in cheek)? She ignored it and replied that the male gender implies authority and power, and that “He” is the supreme authority and “He” is omnipotent. I asked her what evidence has she for even supposing that her god exists and was not just dreamed up by men. She replied that the Bible is her evidence.
It was fascinating to me that the young woman was an honors student, but completely missed the classic circular nature of her argument.
I recall, as well, that when I was studying Zoroastrianism, I got a big hoot when I read about judgement day and the Chinvat Bridge. After being weighed in the balance to determine if the soul (always presumed to be male) is predominantly good or bad, he is ordered to cross the Chinvat Bridge. If his evil deeds outweighed good deeds, then the soul will be met in the middle by an ugly hag who embraces him as the bridge narrows to a razor’s edge, and they both fall into the Fires of Perdition.
If the soul’s deeds were found to be predominantly good, then as he crosses the bridge, he is met by a beautiful woman and, with a soft, warm breeze behind them, they walk together to the other side and enter paradise (a Persian word).
It should be obvious to everyone that the “holy” books were written by men and influenced by the patriarchal society in which they lived and by their personal opinions.
Kids should be taught, as early as possible in high school, critical thinking (informal logic), and throughout their school years, introduced to the humanities, especially world religions (including their origins) and civics. Unfortunately, conservatives are solidly against such an education.
I added your other comment at the bottom of this one because for some reason that post is now in the trash and I can’t get it out. Just have to repost it again someday.
I go with nurture over nature because you don’t find male dominance in every culture. It tends to come from societies with harsh climates that don’t grow good crops where the people end of being warriors. (Like the Middle East) You get your stuff from dominating and killing others. And because men are bigger and stronger and you don’t want to lose the people who make babies, men tend more likely to be the Warriors and celebrated. And even given women as a reward. I’ve written more about that in this post:
Pro-Sex vs Anti-Sex Societies
https://broadblogs.com/2016/06/06/pro-sex-vs-anti-sex-societies/
I think that women’s objectification by men is completely a cultural phenomenon. That men notice attractive women can have roots in biological and evolutionary factors but objectification is a different category totally. As a woman, I have had both men stare at me and also objectivity me; I can tell the difference between both. The men who have objectified me usually looked at me in a way that made me feel not only uncomfortable but also incredibly vulnerable. Men who have stared simply because they find me attractive may also make me feel uncomfortable but I don’t feel powerless, essentially I feel like a subject contrary to an object. When I have commented to friends how physically attractive I find a man, I will discuss the man’s physical aspect in detail but never have I thought of the man as a simple tool for me to use. When men objectify, the victim of the objectification is thought of as something that should and could be used not engaged with. In my experiences with objectification, I have also noticed that men that are simply staring at me will either approach me to talk or leave me my space. On the other hand, men who objectify me usually follow up by attempting to either intimidate me or display some sort of dominant action. These instances usually include crude comments, lewd tone of voice, invasion of my space and in these instances the men usually have a safety net to fall back on in case I decide to react, either they’re with a friend group or in a moving vehicle. Essentially, the objectification of women is a symptom of the overwhelming fear society has of a shift in social structure and a change in social norms, as women gain more rights and opportunities our society heads toward the uncharted territory of gender equality.
Yep. A justification has to do with behaving in a way that harms and does not take into account someone else’s thoughts and feelings.
I’m terrified of people objectifying me, and my friends have expressed similar beliefs. I can go from having a wonderful day, to being scared and self-conscious just because someone “cat called” me. People have told me I should take it as a compliment, but all I can see is someone looking past my existence as another person, and only seeing my body.
To clarify, I like looking nice. I like wearing makeup and doing my hair and anything else that makes me feel good when I look in the mirror. I have no problem with people thinking I’m attractive, but I’m entirely uncomfortable with people feeling the need to focus solely on that when they address me. There’s a striking difference between complimenting my appearance and cat-calling. (Hint: One objectifies and scares me.)
I’ve heard people say that some enjoy it. I believe that to be true, but the majority of people seem to dislike cat-calls. Why cat-call a person if there’s a large chance they might be scared of you, or dislike that attention? It’s because a cat-caller does not see that person as another person, but as a person’s whose only existence in that moment is in relation to how attractive they find them.
Yes, most women feel threatened by catcalling. And the point isn’t really to compliment a woman. That’s probably why.
I think part of the reason men objectify women are partly because media does as well, women are seen as sex objects not as actual human beings. And it is true that most places that sell men stuff it has pictures of women, projecting them as objects, as a way to sell whatever it is and that if you do this, buy this, wear this, you too can have a woman like this. And the first comment proves that, he doesn’t see her as a whole as something more, as a person, but rather just her body just something there for his gratification. I think that this being part of their “nature” is just an excuse or a justification as to why they do and can continue doing this to women. You hardly see women objectifying men as just a “piece of meat” there for their satisfaction. And if they were to do that and cat call men they would be seen in a negative way but yet men are not by society because it’s “normal”.
Yes, our culture teaches men to objectify women but our culture doesn’t really teach women to objectify men. I’ll be looking more at how women and men respond to objectified images in a future post.
Women are better than men in terms of who they are deep down. But our culture does teach one sex to objectify the other more than vice versa.
It is scientifically proven that both men and women (however, men significantly more so than women) objectify each other in order to find someone attractive to be his or her mate. This science goes back millions of years to the first hominids. However, I do believe that objectification of women by men is more culturally conditioned, as mentioned in this post. I learned that objectifying women is a bonding experience for men. They say lewd comments to be accepted by other males and feed off of the positive reactions of their peers. This then produces a vicious cycle of female objectification which spreads like a viral disease. Catcalling is a big part of objectification and is usually a group effort for men. It is definitely a scary experience for women since we do not know how to react when a group of men say objectifying comments to us. As an individual, it is difficult to stand up to a group like that.
Afraid not. And not on a number of levels.
First, sexy and objectification are two different things. Objectification means you see another person as existing to satisfy your sexual needs. Their thoughts and feelings don’t matter. So you catcall even though it’s hurtful to the person who is being Cat-called. Or you pressure for sex acts that your partner doesn’t want. You complain about your partner’s looks because you don’t care about her or his thoughts and feelings. Et cetera.
And while people find one another attractive, Attractive does not necessarily equal fitness. And what is considered attractive berries from culture to culture.
In west Africa obesity is considered sexy. But obesity is not a good indicator of fitness. In the United States Victoria’s secrets are considered sexy. But they are also anorexic, Which it is not an indicator of fitness. Scientist used to think that people preferred facial symmetry because it indicated health. Turns out it doesn’t.
big cities.
When you live in small communities you know everyone, and is harder to hurt someone you grow up, but in big cities you dont know anyone so why you care?
Human beings seem to be hardwired to care. Six month old children prefer cartoon characters who help over those who hurt.
I think, simply looking at women is not objectification. That could be simple appreciation at times. Women, similarly look at men. Objectification happens when one stares at the physical ‘assets’ making the ‘owner’ uncomfortable…
Yes. The problem is not caring about another person’s level of comfort– What their thoughts and feelings are.
I enjoyed this post as it really got me thinking about the objectification of women in ways that I haven’t before. I found it interesting to find that some men felt that objectifying a woman could be turned around into a positive action, or rather to realize to respect a woman when feeling a sense of attraction. Although I do not, by any circumstances, agree that objectifying is a harmless act, I never thought about how it might make some men feel completely differently about women’s sexuality. I think this is a tricky discussion to go into because we know objectification to be negative, devaluing, and downright disgusting because it allows men to assert a sense of power or authority over women. Women, in this sense, become an object to be used and disposed of for male pleasure and desire. When I read the ending of this post, I realize that this might not always be the case for some women and men. I mean, is it possible to imagine a man who does not like to objectify? One that, instead, turns moments of objectification into a positive energy that allows himself to fully appreciate a woman in deeper ways? Nonetheless, very interesting discussion!
Thanks 🙂
———I mean, is it possible to imagine a man who does not like to objectify?———
Yes! When exposed to sexualized imagery, only men who endorse hostile sexism show limited activity in neural brain-regions that regulate the perception of your mind(1).
So, when just focusing on your appearance it is not generally the case that you are perceived as a empty body.
Also, a paper by the American Psychological Association(2) concluded:
“According to models of objectification, viewing someone as a body induces de-mentalization, stripping away their psychological traits. Here evidence is presented for an alternative account, where a body focus does not diminish the attribution of all mental capacities but, instead, leads perceives to infer a different kind of mind. Drawing on the distinction in mind perception between agency and experience, it is found that focusing on someone’s body reduces perceptions of agency (self-control and action) but increases perceptions of experience (emotion and sensation). These effects were found when comparing targets represented by both revealing versus non revealing pictures (Experiments 1, 3, and 4) or by simply directing attention toward physical characteristics (Experiment 2). The effect of a body focus on mind perception also influenced moral intuitions, with those represented as a body seen to be less morally responsible(i.e.,lesser moral agents) but more sensitive to harm
(i.e.,greater moral patients; Experiments 5 and 6). These effects suggest that a body focus does not cause objectification per se but, instead, leads to a redistribution of perceived mind.”
———One that, instead, turns moments of objectification into a positive energy that allows himself to fully appreciate a woman in deeper ways? Nonetheless, very interesting discussion!———
Do you say that being physically attracted to women (of course only women) is per se objectification? Wow… you’re probably bashing, raw estimate, 90% of men and boys.
Not every encounter is meant to be a marriage or long-term relationship.
That all sounds like deeply religious and conservative dust. “No sex before marriage” type dust. You can’t enjoy sex or sensuality without being emotionally and mentally connected to the person. That would mean unconstrained sex by itself, without knowing to much about the person is… bad… Wow, welcome back to Victorian times…
References:
1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3801174/pdf/nihms515324.pdf
2. http://minddevlab.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/More%20than%20a%20body.pdf
I agree with your point that finding someone physically attractive is not necessarily objectifying. It’s human nature to find other human beings attractive.
I written a little bit about what you wrote here:
Does Porn Objectify? Experts Disagree
https://broadblogs.com/2012/02/01/does-porn-objectify-experts-disagree/
Hostility, Objectification Go Hand-In-Hand
https://broadblogs.com/2013/12/04/hostility-objectification-go-hand-in-hand/
I personally define sexual objectification as seeing a person as existing for your pleasure and not caring about their thoughts and feelings. Basically, do you cause harm?
More here:
Anything Good About Being A Sex Object?
https://broadblogs.com/2014/05/26/anything-good-about-being-a-sex-object-2/
What’s Wrong With Objectification?
https://broadblogs.com/2015/11/16/whats-wrong-with-objectification/
Yea, I agree with a lot of that.
This part of the study bugged the hell out of me… First they wrote that based on their findings it is not correct to use the word objectification, I started to grin and then – they needed to liken it all to animals! As if animals are seen as being able to feel passion, like humans. They just can’t let it rest!
First men are necrophiliacs (seeing women as bodies) and now zoophiles…
I sometimes ask myself if researchers could write like that about homosexuals or if that would be deemed hateful.
“Basically, do you cause harm?”
As Naomi Wolf put it:
———“Nothing justifies comparison with the holocaust, -(yet she can’t help it…)- but when confronted with a vast number of emaciated bodies starved, not by nature but by men, one must notice a certain resemblance.”———–
In The Beauty Math she stated that 150.000 females die of anorexia every year. Which was totally misquoted. It also landed in Gloria Steinem’s Book “Revolution From Within”. The original statement was that there are 150.000 to 200.000 sufferers, not fatalities. Christina Hoff Sommers adressing the whole issue in “Who Stole Feminism”(1).
Well, this study(2) from 2001 shows an average of around 145 (not 150.000!!!) deaths of anorexia nervosa, which is still dramatic. It seems Naomi Wolf revisited it later.
So, I’m now, as a straight guy with certain preferences semi-compared to Adolf Hitler who gased millions of people during the holocaust. Lovely lady.
Corncerning such a complex illness, I might be indirectly contributing (by watching some model shows) 00000000000000000000,01% to the rate.
And now?
The high fashion industry has the thinnest models you will ever find – and a lot of the designers who are setting the style are women (3) *varies by country* and many of the most popular designers are gay men (4,5). So, hetero men, gay men and women are all together reponsible for the extreme standarts in the industry. But Naomi Wolf wouldn’t hit on gay’s or women, wouldn’t she?
REF:
1. https://books.google.de/books?id=EIUtJziqIqAC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=in+revolution+from+within+gloria+steinem+informs+her+readers&source=bl&ots=rNG3JLM7EO&sig=18WQvfctmkbyw7N1Ug2F_WTxSr8&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9h_HdwKHUAhWD1SwKHZHiBREQ6AEIKDAB#v=onepage&q=in%20revolution%20from%20within%20gloria%20steinem%20informs%20her%20readers&f=false
2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11513012
3. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fashion_designers
4. https://www.quora.com/Which-famous-fashion-designers-are-gay#
5. https://www.queerty.com/the-15-greatest-gay-designers-20150213
Well do you prefer women who are starving? I’m guessing not and hoping not. (That would be harming.) And it’s not so much about you as about a cultural standard that people can internalize unconsciously. The attack is on the culture not on specific men who have unconsciously internalized the preference. But thanks for your thoughts on all this.
When it comes to having hobbies, Maybe it helps if you just do things you’re interested in. Then it’s not a total waste of time. You can have fun or learn something.”
You’re right, actually earlier this year, it was a good idea from my friend and what would be useful for me. For example, my friend brought up why don’t you take a yoga class. The funny thing is though I think outside of the box and how men shouldn’t be confined, I still internalize these things and am hesitant one doing something that’s my masculine self isn’t sure how manly it is. I know there are guys who do yoga too. But it would be useful for me, because genetically, I’ve always had a very stiff back and just my body in general. And my job has me bending and lifting and stuff. I know proper lifting technique, but it’s really good to be more limber. Like I’m glad I’ve never hurt my back as they say people with stuff backs usually have back problems. So yoga would be very useful for my body and maybe for my mind too as I think people can use it to de stress and calm themselves. My mind can over think sometimes.
But the other problem was my thinking of, and my self consciousness kicks in was “are the women, girls there going to look at me as “that guys” ha. Like a guy there to pick up chicks. But I think guys like that give off sleazy vibes or they stick out with how they act and such and it’s not simply a guy being at a usually, majority female class like yoga. But what helped was that a lady I worked with at a YMCA like club, who likes me a lot, she even insisted I do yoga and she knows one of the yoga instructors. She helped me out because she said this other lady is kind of tough and not good for a beginner like me, but this other lady is really nice, etc. And she texted her when I was there at work. And she told me the instrutors website, blog which she has which shows her schedule and where you can email her. I did and she was really nice and she sent a friend request from facebook and I explained things. I told her I’d try to join one of her classes.
The funny thing is the instructor even told me I think too much lol. So like something like that helps if you’re self conscious on how you will appear of joining a yoga class and if you’re the only guy there. But that didn’t matter, because I had an “in” since the female instructor knows I’m cool. But what sucked is that, my work schedule was lined up the first couple of weeks at the few times and days she does yoga. And I didn;t know, maybe she didn’t know that she was moving. But I was ready to join a class, (it might be due to marriage that she decided to go out of state). She just got married soon after to her long time boyfriend, But right when I was going to show up to a class, I saw that her name wasn’t on the chart for my fitness club ‘s fitness schedule anymore and then saw that she left town and moved down south. So she moved down south and living there. I can go with a different instructor, but it sucks when someone who was really nice and cool, but things happen.
Nonetheless yoga is a terrific idea for more than one reason. Not only do a lot of women do yoga but people who do yoga age better then average. It’s good for keeping the muscles strong into old age, flexibility, and low stress.
From studies I’ve seen, men who just want a fling have to put up with a lot of rejection. Some guys are better at dealing with that than others. You strike me as someone who would have a harder time with it. I have a friend who is in an open marriage and he hits up practically every woman he meets (it seems to me), gets a lot of rejection, and it doesn’t faze him.”
I think it might be because your friend is an extroverted guy or maybe always was. I think it’s easier for guys to brush rejection off or many times when they are very extroverted. My friend did well with girls, and I’m sure was rejected, but it didn’t bother him, because it’s just easy for him to talk to people. He would talk to anyone anywhere and was just like that in general with not caring too much about the “result”. Like for your friend and my friend they can talk easily with people it seems, so if things don’t work it’s just from the girl not being into them. Whereas, for someone who has to warm up to people and conversation might be hard initiatlly, there’s more likely to be akwardness in an approach and that’s the worst thing a man wants like me, because then that feels embarassing and unconfortable. It’s like not the rejection that’s bad for me, but not keeping the convo going, nothing interesting to say because I don’t know the person. I just hate akwardness. That’s not as much a problem with work, or class, etc because your at something together and stuff to bring up and not force. I feel I have to force convo.
So like if I’m talking with a girl and seems like she likes me and try to get a number and she’s not interested, that doesn;t bother me. It bothers me with what I already said. Yeah small talk at a bar, but it feels like I have to impress the girl and small talk to me is usually boring because it’s getting to know someone, but they are quick questions and like not material usually for humor and such. When I’m in an environment where I’m among people even if I don’t know them or they are new, I have no problem talking to them or even one of the first, and it’s because I feel I have more funny, better stuff to talk about than in a bar, because a lot of my initial stuff is from observation and then I run on what people say and can see humor with something. My humor and wit is not usually from “jokes” or stories though stories can come after talking for a bit. I’m really outgoing and everybody notices or gravitates to my personality. I’m well liked at work and wherever I worked, like I said there were always some girls who were attracted to me at work or one’s who weren’t liked being around my company or just people in general. I can “work a room” as far as making people laugh or smile. I
Sounds to me that the way you are is actually better than someone who’s good at working a room. You’re authentic. The room-worker isn’t. And a lot of people find inauthentic-workers a turn off.
Some men objectify women. For example, a lot of commercial use commercialization of sex. This is one of the example of objectify women. Today some people take it for granted, but it is wrong way. On the other hand, some women also objectify men. Men could be one of their taking topic.
These are a problem of both men and women. however, sometimes, these problems give positive effect to human to spend time for improving themselves such as exercise and fitness.
but, That’s a fact that objectify women or men is problem.
When I talk about men objectifying women people often say women do it too. So I wrote a post, which I have listed under the “related posts.” Women are much less likely to see a man as a thing that exists only to satisfy her sexuality. Here’s why: https://broadblogs.com/2014/05/05/do-women-objectify-men/
I found this post about objectifying interesting especially the the perspective of objectifying women because its easier to hide vulnerabilities and keep it strictly sexual. Hook up culture seems to be mainly centered around objectification of women, with men pursuing women fully based off of their looks and women sometimes also having sex with men based off their appearance and ignoring their personalities. I think this is the main difference I see though. Usually men won’t have trouble actively ignoring a women’s personality and focusing on her body because it comes more natural to men to objectify women based on their body parts because of the ridiculous amounts of images of women’s bodies out there. On the other hand it seems like women have to more actively choose to ignore the fact that on an emotional level, she doesn’t get along with the guy. I think this is where the relatively new term “f-boy” comes from. This can often times lead to a guilty feeling after the act from both parties because the love was “faked”. I think that this comes from focus on the women body and seeing the women’s personality as just a sort of puzzle that you have to unlock to get to the prize. More emphasis is put on the guys ability to make the girl laugh or impress her because of this social construct. The women are in the position of judging the “performance” and the men are the ones putting on this performance.
From my own perspective i think that hookup culture is only a temporary phase in your life. As a man I find it tiring to have to focus on putting on an act to impress someone, man or women. Its easier to just have a conversation with someone as equals and ignore that obsession with the female body.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I will have to say that men are more likely to objectify but Society has a lot to do with that. Maybe you would like to take a look at this post: Men Aren’t Hard Wired To Find Breasts Arousing https://broadblogs.com/2010/11/04/men-aren%e2%80%99t-hard-wired-to-find-breasts-attractive/
Generally the qualifications of the F-Boy and the boyfriend material don’t overlap.”
Actually, from what I’ve seen, many girls don’t like or are turned off by “fuck boys”. It’s a term used for that very reason. Girls have spun it on guys who not just want sex, but dicks and sleazy about it. I’ve seen it numerous times with facebook and girls having quite a low opinion and not interested in fuck boys. And this says a lot because even girls open for casual sex, may want to be with a guy to hook up with and a guy that may just be interested in sex but not a fuck boy. You say it’s the same thing, but it’s not. It’s not just a guy wanting just sex but how he carries himself and acts. For example, a guy a girl is texting or talking to that she just met. They talk for a while and before you know it, the girl says she wants to go out to eat or something, instead the guy writes how they watch some netflix and chill. OR that guy sends a dick pic or asks for one from the girl even though they’ve been just talking recently.
Or a guy that sees a girl on twitter and “slides into her dms” and fines an opportunity to bring up sex even if nothing has to do with sex or maybe she’s going through something stressful. Whereas another guy, he and the girl go on a date or they go to a friend’s party and then have sex that nigh or something where they meet back and have sex and both wanted it and never mislead. you see both guys wanted just sex, but a fuck boy goes about it in such a different way than non fuck boys and girls can see that and why girls that may even want to fuck will be turned off and stay away from fuck boys and go to the other guy instead.Seriously, look up fuck boy on urban dictionary and the various definitions, it’s more than a guy wanting casual sex.
Your posts about objectification are highly interesting. And I agree, of course that there’s nothing wrong in taking a good look at a body you find attractive. But for me, sex without personal communication is not very enjoyable. So, whatever the bodily attraction is like, the best sex I’ve had is always with persons, not with objects. Having fun together is when I like sex the best, and that requires some degree of mutuality, doesn’t it?
Ellington
I think most people agree with that. In a study of hook up culture researchers found that about three quarters of both women and men preferred relationship sex, Which is more focused on each other as people.
Lust is completely normal. It’s more how you treat people. When “you” stare that makes people uncomfortable and it’s a problem. Or just using and abusing someone for sex when they want something more. If you both want anonymous sex that’s a different thing.”
I have a feeling men lust more than women and I don’t even think women even lust unfortunately toward guy’s bodies or one’s they don’t know too well. Like as a man and I know many guys have had this happen before. If passing by a girl that’s really sexy and nice boobs and butt. You might dicretely glance as walking by and while walking away to wherever your’re going you might think of her “her nice ass and her naked and how nice it would be having said hands on her ass or banging her” Obviously a decent man would never gawk or definitely not ever be forward to a woman like that. That’s what creeps do and bad, but yeah guy’s, respectful one’s can think like that just from seeing a hot woman if she’s particularly sex or in really sexy clothes accentuating her body.
Well men do lust more.
No wonder. 1)we punish womens sexuality. 2) we don’t eroticize the male body.
What I mean is that brains that think a lot tend to age better, so that’s a different question from the one you pose. What you are talking about is overthinking how you look. And becoming self-conscious. Being self-conscious doesn’t tend to help Social situations, as I know from personal experience.”
Yeah but I think that can be a bi-product of being a person who thinks a lot. You said you dealt with it yourself and part of it can be with thinking so much. If you think about many things intellectual or out of the box, often times it means you are self aware and more thinking or aware of how people might see you. This can lead to being cautious or like calculating with the things you do and how it’s done.
“o make people feel comfortable without people assuming that you were just trying to pick up on them.”
Exactly and I’m aware of that, which is why rarely attempted. And because I think a lot, I’m not shy or like I used to be. Like I have the confidence in the sense of like it’s not because I’m scared, like I’ll talk, But for the bar, you have to be really at east with just talking to people you don’t know and just have a ton to say or else it could become akward. I’m a person who has a ton of personality but it’s hard for me to operate in that outgoing manner when i don’t know someone especially at a bar that doesn’t really have a setting for good conversation or things in common with your interests. So if you’re a person like me that has to warm up to a person first or like I’m trying to like figure out the person and what to say and what to go with conversation when I don’t know them and there’s a feeling out process. Like my friend and people who can do well, they can talk or act like they know someone when just meeting them and they don’t know. He could talk to girls like they’re his best friend and knows them.
Like I just can’t fake that. And yes the catch 22 for guys and why it sucks as a guy. the places you cann meet women and do well, are one’s that want a relationship and the one’s who might be interested in sex but at a bar and yeah they probably are weary of guys coming on to them at a bar just for that reason. It sucks because I’ve held of getting a number or trying with cute girls I’ve worked with or know, because I know they are dead serious on a wanting a relationship and don’t want to even waste their time or mine and because I like them and they are nice. Well one has a bunch fo baggage too which is why I’ve stayed away plus a kid. But probably would have messed around if she seemed interested in something casual, but I’m good at picking up people’s intentions and atleast for me, I’m not one that would lie to a girl and give off like I want something she wants just to get in her pants, but then when it’s hard meeting girls, you do sabotage yourself as a guy. If I was a callous jerk, I’d have had sex by a decent number or girls by now, but haven’t because of reason I said, because it wouldn’t have been what they want as they’d want more the ones I’m talking bout. So I suffer for being a decent guy ha.
Yeah, thinking a lot and self-consciousness can certainly go hand in hand.
Why not go where the women are and you can get to know them? Take classes at a college, dancing, hiking, check out Meetup for things that interest you — someone you’ll have common interests with.
Yeah but if all the women I meet want nothing but a relationship, then that would suck for me. It’s worth trying though. They always say to meet a lot of people and that’s what guys who’ve been successful with gilts have said is you have to have hobbies which will make you interesting to talk about things and meet many women. Persistence is key. I can try something or do something I don’t like but for s benefit of something but if it doesn’t go well, I can get frustrated or lose interest and just not want to do whatever again because I can get negative sometimes unfortunately and feel whatever was a waste of effort and time.
But yeah.there are dating apps too thst could have a mix of women with some interested in something more casual or atleast not all wanting solely a relationship.
From studies I’ve seen, men who just want a fling have to put up with a lot of rejection. Some guys are better at dealing with that than others. You strike me as someone who would have a harder time with it. I have a friend who is in an open marriage and he hits up practically every woman he meets (it seems to me), gets a lot of rejection, and it doesn’t faze him.
When it comes to having hobbies, Maybe it helps if you just do things you’re interested in. Then it’s not a total waste of time. You can have fun or learn something.
Actually, not every culture eroticizes breasts and butts. And unless you are starving they have nothing to do with fertility levels. For instance, I know women in their 20s who have sagging breasts simply because they are so big. So the shape – sagging – is not an indication of age.”
They may not be eroticized, but they are integral parts to sex. Think about this. Haven’t you heard how people relate dancing to sex or some put a correlation to good dancers with being good in bed, because of the rhtyhm and movements and such. And I think dancing existed as like a coutring ritual and celebration to for humans. But think of the body parts, which dancing can be related to sex. What body parts are moved or even accentuated, I’m not talking about america where women are blatantly ‘twerking”. Let’s talk about salsa or an african tribe or what about india with belly dancing? The hips, pelvis and ass are moved a lot but also like the focal attention and even men, not like women, but men like in latin countries move their hips and pelvis with dance.
It makes sense they will have sexual connotations since all this and also like I said primal sex positions that feature said body and probably signal thoughts of sex position. Yes tribal men can see naked women and not be turned on, but when having sex, don’t tell me her ass isn’t something arousing when she’s bent over in front of him during doggy style sex. The fact that it is such a common position suggests the sexual attractiveness of women’s rears to men, because there’s the visuyal aspect big time too during sex. And when talking about the act of sex, what’s being held? backed? grabbed? squeezed? What is ‘moving” during sex, hips,pelvis, and ass right? different movements depending on from who (man or woman), and position, but still when talking about sex itself, those are the most involved body parts as far as activity goes. Of course people will have preferences and not be into it, but I do think there is biological substance to it for all these reasons, it has to be. i think it can be subconscious, but there is something there.
Men move those parts too. Yet we don’t fetishize them.
Objectification per se is bad and not desirable. It is demeaning and dehumanising. If so, why the preoccupation with parts of feminine anatomy such as breasts and buttocks? Physiology attributes the appeal to its underlying role in reproduction and fitness to bring out healthy progeny; the same factor may explain the female fascination for broad shoulders and overall height of the male. Nonetheless, genuine relationships are invariably based on the person in his or her entirety, in the finest wholeness of head and heart.
I always appreciate your comments.
But I will have to say that I will be writing a critique of the notion that men stare at breasts and butts, or that women stare at broad shoulders and tall men because those traits indicate evolutionary advantages. For now I will say that what is considered attractive varies greatly from culture to culture. And in some cultures breasts and butts aren’t even considered erotic. And I’m not aware of any culture in which broad shoulders and height are considered erotic.
And there is a difference between noticing that someone is attractive — according to your cultural standards — and objectifying them. I’ve written about that here: Anything Good About Being A Sex Object? https://broadblogs.com/2011/05/23/anything-good-about-being-a-sex-object/
They may not be a fetish, but breasts and butts do seem to cross culturally be body parts sexually attractive. Breasts show sexual fertility and wide hips and such show child bearing aspects and don’t forget one of the most primal, basic sexual positions is doggy style. So it makes sense that no matter, tribal, ancient cultures or different countries, the men would still see sexual attractiveness to a woman’s ass, especially considering it’s involvement visually and as far as sex acts or positions. like I said doggy style. And I thought even if tribal cultures, women’s breasts and nipples were still focuses as far as pleasing during sex and touched during sex. So it’s not a fetish fore them but there has to be sexually attractive qualities considering this.
Actually, not every culture eroticizes breasts and butts. And unless you are starving they have nothing to do with fertility levels. For instance, I know women in their 20s who have sagging breasts simply because they are so big. So the shape – sagging – is not an indication of age.
checking out women and their bodies and body parts. ”
“It’s a genuine curiosity and appreciation for all woman. Especially for all the women who actually live and display their authentic self and freely give their love to all as an expression of their femininity.”
Checking out a woman, if quick, try to be subtle glance or glances is objectifying? Women are beautiful to men, their looks and body, so men will be motivated to glance or enjoy looking. What men don’t have an excuse for is staring or gawking. Glancing to me, shows the guy doesn’t want to be rude or is thinking of her, and he feeling matters enough that he doesn’t want her to feel uncomfortable, but still appreciates he beauty. It’s the one’s who just stare and don’t care how long and how she may feel that would seem to not see the woman as a person of having feelings or feelings understood and just a sex object to him and nothing more.
I think maybe our culture and sexualization and socialization as well as the biology too? Like I do find women and girls and their individuality interesting, and wit and humor different women have or quirks. Feminity, nurturing and the interesting aspects of their personality. But that’s why it’s like a conflict or duality for guys. You can see one woman and just lustfully think about sex with her. Another woman conjures up romantic feelings, relationship thoughts. Same man can want and hook up with a woman and not having a problem with wanting that or doing that. And the next day, meets a different woman and his emotions activated and wants more from this woman or feelings to her. Same man can be a dbag to one woman and want just sex and feelings and some gentleman and genuinely want a relationship with another woman.
I hope lusting for a woman or being attracted to a woman based on the physical isn’t objectification. That part that I quoted made it seem like he felt like having initial interest and attraction to a woman based on her body and looks is objectification. Most guys especially since you don’t know a woman’s personality looking at her, will be interested in meeting or getting to know said woman based on what they see and lust that motivates them taking that chance, which is sexually motivated. Yes if she shows wit and nice personality, that adds the attraction and more likely that a man could want a relationship in finding out that she’s really cool and someone that would seem to be with as a girlfriend and such. But that isn’t necessary for sexual attraction or where a man would entertain or even lust or think of having sex with said woman before he talks to her.
I think you answered your question in the first paragraph of your response, which I think is well put. There’s nothing wrong with noticing and appreciating an attractive person. Objectification comes when their feelings don’t matter, so that you stare at them. Or your partners feelings don’t matter when you stare at someone else. And I just recommended this to someone else:
Anything Good About Being A Sex Object?
https://broadblogs.com/2011/05/23/anything-good-about-being-a-sex-object/
So having lust isn’t necessarily bad, but how you treat or think the other person as one that has no feelings? Because I can have lust for a girl, but like obviously care in the sense that I wouldn;t want her uncomfortable or think I’m a perv or putting some dominance over her with a look. That’s why if I look, i try to be discrete. But I’d be lying to say there aren’t times when I’ve seen a really sexy, pretty girl with a nice body and she’s wearing tight jeans that show off her ass or clothes that show off her assets. And even in my glance or glances, lustful sex related thoughts came up of thinking about said booty and well sex thoughts toward her body.
But if that happens, the girl doesn’t know or get anything from me that I’m thinking that or thought that, because obviously like I said, I’m not gonna stare or anything like that. Not going to be a creep or disrespectful. But can walk by a girl that’s sexy like that, so I’ve looked and we’re walking opposite directions and she’s walked past and I’m past her now. So as you’re walking away, that quick glance you got, and walked away you’re thinking just from that glance. “damn, she was hot and her ass” There can be more, but that’s the problem. I mean it’s natural to have lust, but it feels like being honest, as I guaretee most guys, good guys can have these thoughts, that you feel like women would see you as a jerk for such lust to her body.
Lust is completely normal. It’s more how you treat people. When “you” stare that makes people uncomfortable and it’s a problem. Or just using and abusing someone for sex when they want something more. If you both want anonymous sex that’s a different thing.
Sexual objectification is seeing another human being as reduced to a thing that satisfies your desire, and not worrying about their thoughts and feelings.
Just because a guy likes to discretely look, doesn’t mean he is objectifying. However, if the guy is crude and his glance turns into staring–well, that is probably a different story.
Women like to glance also.
I can’t recall the song, but the singer when talking about all the education he has had, says it is a wonder I can think at all. I can appreciate those lyrics. I recall hearing in college that there were three kinds of people.
Instinctive people, who just act and think from instincts.
Those who think they know, but really don’t.
And finally those who really know.
The interest thing is that the third category things exactly like the first category, the only difference is that they know why they thing that way.
I’m certain I was in the first category and I also have no doubts that I was in the second category. I have never figured out if I have or have not moved out of that second category.
Yeah, there’s nothing wrong with noticing and appreciating that someone is attractive. The difference is when their feelings don’t matter so that you make them uncomfortable staring. And make your own partner uncomfortable staring at someone else.
Ha ha! “I recall a song talking about all the education he has had, says it is a wonder I can think at all.”
That said, science has found that the minds that age best are those that do a lot of thinking.
I have undergone a number of paradigm shifts in my life and I’m always fascinated to find myself looking outside the box. So fascinating that I crave and seek out paradigm shifts. Because we are always in a box.
Minds that age the best are those that do a lot of thinking. That’s a double edged sword though, I look outside the box a lot but that same thing is what has caused me to get in my own way with women as far as approaching. They say analytical people, which I am or people who do a lot of thinking, can be tough for them to approaching someone at a bar they don’t know or just walk up and talk to people.
What happens or can happen is over thinking, when you’r a person who thinks a lot even if smart. Ironically, girls do like guys who are smart and with wit, but it seems like the guy’s where it works best for them is to be “simple minded”, they don’t think but just go and do it. My friend I know who are smart, but can just turn off the thinking switch which can cause over thinking and anxiety and just talk to girls at a bar and such. The more self thinking you are, the harder it can be to take risks unfortunately sometimes, because you’re more likely calculate and calculate the various scenarios, this and that and eventually even if you were going to do something, you think youself out, wait too long or give up.
What I mean is that brains that think a lot tend to age better, so that’s a different question from the one you pose. What you are talking about is overthinking how you look. And becoming self-conscious. Being self-conscious doesn’t tend to help Social situations, as I know from personal experience.
So what to do? Depends on what you’re after. If you want relationships I wouldn’t go to bars, I would do things where I would meet people who have interests in common with my own. Hiking, politics… whatever. And then instead of thinking about yourself and how you come across, think about how you can make them comfortable. People generally like talking about themselves, so if you can get them talking about themselves they will think that you are very charming.
If you just want anonymous sex and meeting people in bars really, you just have to face a lot of rejection I would guess, because I don’t know how to be in that sort of situation and try to make people feel comfortable without people assuming that you were just trying to pick up on them.
We are taught at a very early age to view women as prizes to win through stories, and mythologies. When I was growing up, the vast majority of TV shows, movies had this trope: a man is in love with a woman, and her function is simply to be his love interest. The belief that women are trophies still permeates through our culture, whether it’s in the media, education, or simple everyday conversation.
What’s wrong is making a woman feel like an object. Why is that wrong? Because it implies ownership and control: objects are the things we own and control. People should be treated with respect and empathy, not dehumanized and objectified, and we need to be better about representing women more positively in television and media.
We live in a world in which sex is both a great pleasure and a natural act. Unfortunately, sex is used for power and control (by both sexes). That’s simply a human condition and the only way we can make life palatable is to be kind, tactful, respectful and understanding.
Thank you for adding that to the conversation 🙂
well i stopped checking out on women long time back!! why i did checkout them,… i never gave it a thought. but stopping it started when i realised its objectification…. it took lot of self control and training to brain to do it.
Your partner will thank you!
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with noticing an attractive person, but things can get uncomfortable when the guy disappears into lust. Uncomfortable for both his partner and the woman he is slobbering over.
indeed, this is very difficult topic in the states, but not in Europe.
It’s difficult to think about tomorrow, but if we go through life with blinders towards the repercussions of our current actions, we’ll only taint our future culture.
European men may well be less likely to objectify. Maybe it’s partly because nudity is more seen as just a part of life? So women are less likely to be reduced to their body parts, which are then seen as existing to satisfy men.
To be fair, women objectify men too, but usually not in an obvious way. We do it in private.
I once had a candid conversation with a guy about objectifying women. His short answer was porn. He said the more he watched, the more difficult it was for him to see women as more than a method or tool for his sexual satisfaction.
I don’t think that ever changed about him. A few months later, his wife complained that he sexually assaulted her after an argument where he told her he knew he was a bad husband and did not care to be a good one. He somehow felt after these romantic words, she should be a willing partner and did not respect her obvious no.
When she told his mom, the mom’s brilliant response was that they must just not be compatible. So maybe the way he was raised, played a part. Who knows?
They are separated now. She did not report him to the police. She really should have..
Thanks for sharing your story about that guy. And women are much less likely to watch porn than men are. The vast majority of porn is directed to men.
When I talk about men objectifying women people often say women do it too. So I wrote a post, which I have listed under the “related posts.” Women are much less likely to see a man as a thing that exists only to satisfy her sexuality. Here’s why: https://broadblogs.com/2014/05/05/do-women-objectify-men/
You’re welcome! I do still believe women objectify men too, though it is not as common or obviously done.
The “f**k phenomenon” is a real thing. There are women who are tired of being disappointed by men, so they decide to ask for the one thing a man can guarantee her without reservations: sex. I know many women who do this.
Do they secretly hope the guy will magically fall in love with them? Some do, some do not. Generally the qualifications of the F-Boy and the boyfriend material don’t overlap.
It may happen sometimes but it’s much less common because women are not bombarded by images and ways of thinking that objectify men and fetishize their bodies. We don’t fetishize any part of the male body culturally.
It’s not that women are better. But they live in a very different world.
I also wonder how much the women are “acting” in an objectifying way instead of actually doing it. Some women have written to me saying that they wish they could objectify men (almost in revenge), and they try to act the part. But they also recognize that they are not experiencing men in the way that men experience women when men objectify us.
I disagree. We can agree to disagree on that. I believe the women I know are much different from the ones you know.
Thanks for chatting with me!
Actually I’m not necessarily disagreeing. There are a number of possibilities and different people may see and experience things in different ways.