Straight vs Gay Slut-Shaming
In straight culture women are often shamed for having sex while men are celebrated.
But things may be reversed in gay culture. “Heather” wrote in to say:
I agree completely that straight women tend to slut-shame other straight women and that straight men congratulate other straight men for their “sexual conquests.”
But in my experience that is not the case in the LBGT+ community. I’m straight myself, but among my gay and lesbian friends things seem to be the opposite: gay men slut-shame gay men, and lesbians congratulate lesbians.
She wonders if others have had similar experiences.
Well, I have. As I related,
I have a gay friend whose partner jokes that he’d thought my friend was a whore — but was happy to learn that he is not. That banter hints at slut-shaming in gay culture.
But why? Heather wondered,
Maybe no matter what sex you are, going after men is seen as slutty but going after women is seen as admirable?
Maybe. But why? What’s behind that?
I sometimes talk about how sex — the verb — creates gender. And how the double standard creates a sense of male superiority.
Repressed female desire: it’s harder to interest them
You don’t find a sexual double standard in gender-equal societies. You find it in patriarchies, which find a number of ways to limit and demean women’s sexuality, like this: use a sexual double standard to create a sense of male superiority: who is free, who is not. Who is shamed who is not.
When women’s sexuality is constantly punished women learn to damp down their desire. After awhile women often lose touch with desire, which helps explain why nearly half of American women have little to no interest in sex.
And, women’s sexuality is more responsive than men’s to punshment — see “Related Posts” below.
Constantly punishing women’s sexuality creates low desire, which means it takes much more to get them interested. Which could explain why success with women is a big deal!
Gay culture rocks the boat
But also, gay culture rocks the boat in many ways, which is why LGBT+ people are threatening to patriarchal cultures like fundamentalist Christianity or fundamentalist Islam.
Still, LGBT+ people are raised within patriarchy, with its domination mindset. When you grow up in a patriarchal culture where it comes to seem natural and normal that some people are dominated by others (in patriarchies men dominate women), everyone can take on a domination mindset.
So possibly gays and lesbians take on this shaming, but do it in the opposite way, either because:
- They like rocking the boat — getting us out of our boxes.
Or:
- Success with women is more congratulated because (as I said above) punishing women’s sexuality creates low desire, which means it takes much more to get women interested.
Thoughts anyone?
Related Posts
- Sex-Negative Societies & Non-Orgasmic Women
- Repression: Not What You Think It Is
- Women Are More Responsive To Repression
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Posted on June 26, 2017, in LGBTQ+, psychology, sex and sexuality and tagged slut shaming, slut-shaming in straight versus gay communities. Bookmark the permalink. 57 Comments.
BroadBlogs 
I have noticed that gay men are often slut shammed while lesbians are often celebrated. Slut-shaming towards straight women is not only from other women; it also often comes from men. When that factor is removed, I think women are less likely to shame each other. I also believe it comes from women, both queer and straight, being slut shamed by men, and within the lesbian community, women have, in a sense, reclaimed it to become more sex-positive. I additionally think it has something to do with gay men often being seen as feminine while lesbians are often seen as masculine.
If you are saying that you think straight women are less likely to shame each other than gay men are to shame gay men, I have no idea. Research shows that women are a bit more likely to shame women than men are to shame women. Probably because it is against men’s interest to shame women – even though they still do it plenty — because that men are less likely to be able to have sex. On the other hand, women who feel threatened by attractive women will often slut shame even if the woman hasn’t done anything other than appear to be attractive. Women feel hostility and aggression just like men do and slut-shaming is one of the ways that they target that emotion, esp against women who they feel threatened by in terms of being able (or unable) to get men.
Very interesting to hear that gay men are slut shamed more than lesbians in their communities. I do understand why pursuing women may be seen as more congratulatory because women are “harder to get.” Although I don’t know if I necessarily agree that gay men may be slut shamed more because the LGBTQ community likes “rocking the boat.” That makes it sound like gays and lesbians are making the conscious decision to congratulate women for sex and shame men for the same thing. I think it would be more likely that the first reason, that men are easy targets for sex, is the reason why gay men are slut shamed more than lesbians.
Another aside, I’m not so sure that gay men even slut shame each other that much at all. I’ve seen a lot of standup comedians who are gay, and they always talk proudly about how much sex they’re having, while the lesbian comedians don’t talk that much about their sex lives. It could be just those individuals though, and not the whole community.
I enjoyed this article, and I agree with a lot of what is being said. As a woman who is bisexual, it was always made apparent to me that if I ever brought up how many women partners I had, I was viewed as a player or a “god”, but if I ever mentioned how many male partners I had I would instantly be slut-shamed. And if I talk about both I am automatically labeled a “whore”. I think that If women didn’t go through slut-shaming period it might be different. Because why does it matter how many people you have slept with anyway? Everyone has the choice to do whatever they want with another person as long as it is consensual and it isn’t hurting anyone. I also have never really heard anyone really slut-shame gay men as well, most of the time I hear men being praised whether they have male or female partners. Hopefully, the LGBTQ+ community just takes down the patriarchy and we change all of it!
I think it might have to do that with women it’s a huge thing to actually have sex with them. One was able to dominate her or get her out of her shell and it becomes an accomplishment. Although, in my experience, those who “succeed” tend to get into relationships, not just hook up. I have met girls who just hook up, but I know more who would rather have a relationship. So I guess the “success” of sleeping with a women is because they both have the want to be in a relationship in common. While with the gay men, I’m not very experienced, I don’t know why exactly they slut shame. Being dominant or submissive isn’t taboo for them. I’ve heard more talk about being dominated from gay men then anything. The LGBT+ community, I think, is the most accepting, but it also has its flaws just like all of society. The standards and culture carry over, it’s not like being gay you enter a new world.
This is something very new to me. I have never thought or known of how the gay guys were slut shamed for going many guys. It is even more surprising since they are males and, therefore, the results should be the opposite. This leads to a new perspective in me that the slut shaming itself could be created by women themselves. For example, Lesbians are being praised for their abilities to being able to get many girls. Although Lesbians are females, their mindsets are like men. It is fair to consider them to have male personalities and traits rather than females’. Gays, on the other hand, although they are males, they have female traits and characteristics. And because of this they are likely to be slut shamed for going for the guys. Because of this, I think slut shaming is hardwired in females with female characteristics and traits. It is just an assumption though.
“I think slut shaming is hardwired in females with female characteristics and traits. It is just an assumption though.”
It can’t possibly be hardwired. You find differences from culture to culture. Lesbian women aren’t shamed in their culture.
This is so interesting. I’m a bisexual woman and I can relate to both of these. I once asked a guy out on a date, for me and the guy everything was fine and normal. But when I told my friends about it they were shocked and they thought I was so brave, they said they could never ask a guy out. And I don’t understand why that’s a weird thing to do. I don’t think guys should do all the work in a relationship.
Now on the other side, I’m with a girl now. And on the first date the big question for other people is that “Who is gonna be the guy and kiss the other first?” You see the guy has to be the one who needs to go for a kiss or it would be a shameful thing to do for woman. Also there needs to be a “guy” even if you are talking about a romantic relationship between two women. I think there are so many wrong things about this. We should be just following our hearts and balancing the relationship on both of us. But that balance shouldn’t be based on the sexes. Somedays I should carry more of the relationship if my partner doesn’t have the energy for it, and some days it should be the opposite. Having a balance doesn’t mean everything has to be equal, it means partners should support each other.
Well instead of teaching each other about this balance, we talk about what sex should do what and I think that’s the main reason why we have problems.
You make some good points.
Victorians had a strong form of patriarchy that was very hurtful to women but privileged men. Unfortunately we still have remnants of that system that harm women even today.
I think there’s a lot going on here, and would love to dissect it more. It is true that straight women are shamed for being sexually active, while straight men are praised. However, I wonder if the shaming in the LGBTQ community comes in part from a place of lesbian relationships being more acceptable than gay? Women are allowed those close and physical relationships with other women, no matter their sexuality. Is this a continuation of that allowance? Is there internal shaming for desiring men, given the harm that the patriarchy continues to wreak on the LGBTQ community?
Another side of this to consider is that while yes, a woman is being bedded when a lesbian talks about having sex, what is missed is that the woman who is bedded is not also slut-shamed. Were it the case that the “bedder” was praised while the “bedded” shamed, I would see your point as more feasible. But that isn’t the case, given the examples provided. I think there’s a lot more to the culture and would love to do some sort of qualitative study to start to answer some of the questions raised.
I appreciate your theorizing on all of this. It’s great brain exercise and you bring up some interesting points.
While I agree it’s unlikely that a lesbian woman who is bedded is slut shamed, she still grows up in a culture that shames women’s sexuality, And from an early age. Lesbians seem to be more repressed sexually than gay men.
Women’s sexuality seems to be more easily repressed than men’s. I wrote about a theory on why here: Women Are More Responsive To Repression
https://broadblogs.com/2016/04/18/women-are-more-responsive-to-repression/
I can agree that it is more socially acceptable for a man to get a women into bed, than it is for a women to try to get a man in bed. Looking at it from another angle, I would say that its easy for women to find a sexual partner than men. I do not think that slut shaming is the way to go, as I see it as a double standard. I can definitely see how in the LGBT community men of the same sex are celebrated in their choice to have sex with several men. Women do have a tolerance for sex. I don’t know if I can agree that it is higher than a man’s need for it. I believe that although there is hope to pursue a relationship with a female, men are more physical, whereas females or more relational. Men can get aroused by sight and females to touch. Men also put up a higher priority on sex than women do. All in all, I feel like if we are going to support one group/gender than we need to support the other gender as well. Otherwise its just the pot calling the kettle black to me.
And pretty much all of these patterns are due to social constructions like double standards, And particularly double standards that shame women’s sexuality and repress it. See more here (this talks about both biological differences and social constructions):
Repression: Not What You Think It Is
https://broadblogs.com/2014/10/27/repression-not-what-you-think-it-is/
Sex-Negative Societies & Non-Orgasmic Women
https://broadblogs.com/2016/01/04/sex-negative-societies-non-orgasmic-women/
Women Are More Responsive To Repression
https://broadblogs.com/2016/04/18/women-are-more-responsive-to-repression/
I think the most impressionable statement for me on this post is –
“LGBT+ people are raised within patriarchy, with its domination mindset”.
It made me think of how societal norms create an image of everyone vs. “the other”. On the topic of current news I think my friends statement on Facebook relates a lot to the quote above; she wrote, “You know, sometimes I wonder if people forget transgender people are human and do have feelings”. Why I find this similar is because I believe the idea of “the other” causes people forget that people with differing sexualities come from a variety of backgrounds, and most likely someone in that community grew up in a similar environment as themselves. So the influences aren’t always far off but their effects are; no matter the sex if you go for women (the ‘lesser sex’) you’re praised and if you go after males (that which is superior) you are simply a tool, but who and how they are slut-shamed is different (straight women vs gay men).
I believe this is the point being made by this post. Male domination, female sexual repression and objectivity, as well as slut-shaming continues to prevail no matter what “other” communities you look at. Sure it’s dangerous to make generalizations about global upbringings but some topics seem to be recurring without pause, so perhaps accepting this is how we can move forward to change these systems. That’s what many feminists do; they tell their realities and relate them to experiences of other women, causing others to recognize patterns and influence change.
We can’t change the system until we start seeing it, drop the blinders that render it invisible. In a domination culture like the one we live in people costly trying to prove that they are better than someone else, And it crosses all sorts of lines.
And what would this imaginary “non domination culture” look like? People holding hands in circles singing kum ba ya?
It would look a lot more like the Nordic cultures. But they are still patriarchal — just much less so than most modern societies. The Iroquois would be a good example too.
Great Post, thank you for addressing a topic definitely something that needs to be talked about more often.
To start, I really enjoy how you “rocked the boat” right out of the gate by beginning with someones personal account of a comparison of straight slut shaming vs slut shaming in the LGBT community, then followed with your own thoughts on it.
Next, while I do not fully agree that Patriarchic societies are wholly to blame for slut-shaming, I think that you totally have a valid point in that the systematic imbalance of power in favor of males has been a massive influence on slut-shaming in both the straight and LGBT communities.
Last, as a male I really liked that you did not shy away from talking about how men are much easier to get into bed than women. In addition, you backed this up with a logical argument on how punishment creates a lowered desire for women, making them more of a “conquest” than a man.
And keep in mind that patriarchy and men are two different things. A lot of men are against patriarchy (a system that privileges males over females).
I will be talking more about why patriarchy is tied to slut-shaming but you could take a look at a book called “Sex in History” for instance. The author looked at more and less patriarchal societies since before the Middle Ages and found a strong pattern of shaming women’s sexuality as a way to help create a sense of mental superiority. Two other books look at the same issue: The Chalice the Blade + Sacred Pleasure (both by the same author, R. Eisler).
Pre-patriarchal society’s don’t shame women’s sexuality. As with Oceana and the Americas prior to European contact. Or gender-equal forager societies that still exist today.
Interestingly, not knowing who daddy is for sure gave Women a lot of power: Family line was traced through females, clan heads were female, and property past thru females. So patriarchal cultures will want to Control women’s sexuality and institute a double standard. Because to keep patriarchy in those old societies you needed to know who dad was — then clans are headed by men, Family line is traced through men and property passes through men. And we have continued that today. Even though nowadays not knowing who daddy is doesn’t give women much power.
But instituting a double standard also helps to celebrate men for the same thing we shame women four. It’s easier to control people with low self-esteem. And shaming something as integral as sexuality Will cause women a great deal of shame.
I think if you consider patriarchy to be about controlling access to men’s wealth through a hierarchical society and rules that promote monogamy, then gay men are just as likely to be slut-shamed for threatening the social order as women are.
That’s not patriarchy.
Patriarchy is a system of privileging men over women.
And lesbians don’t seem to be shamed for getting a lot of women in gay culture, yet they are still threatening the social order.
And the choice between monogamy or non-monogamy has nothing to do with patriarchy. About half of us appeared to preferment on him he and about half prefer non-monogamy. People should be free to follow with their own interests are.
In a patriarchal society a man can be non-monogamous but his wife must be monogamous. That’s privileging men over women.
The privilege of men over women was implicit in my definition – and lesbians are generally not a threat to men/women who are worried about other men/women seducing men and securing access to their wealth. But there certainly is slut-shaming amongst lesbians, because patriarchal indoctrination and misogyny are insidious.
And by monogamy in patriarchy I mean a woman’s goal is to have secure and preferential access to her husband’s wealth. He may or may not have mistresses, but she has the position of power. (In cultures where polygamy is practised, marriage provides only partial security.)
Monogamy isn’t itself patriarchal. About half the population — men and women alike — prefer monogamy.
Lesbians are also threat to patriarchy. No male head. And the blurring of stereotypical gender lines/gender ideals.
But thanks for your thoughts on this.
Lesbians may be a threat to a patriarchy, as you say, but not in a way that inspires slut-shaming.
As for monogamy preferences: Aren’t those who prefer monogamy most likely to slut-shame those who don’t? What are the statistics?
Both of your points make sense. But correlation is not causation.
A person can naturally prefer monogamy without being patriarchal. Half of both women and men prefer monogamy. I prefer monogamy and am feminist.
Most cultures prefer monogamy once people have families. They aren’t all patriarchal. Like Pacific Islanders or Indians of America’s east coast before contact with Europeans, or pretty much any forager society.
And you might want to take a look at this:
F- The Patriarchy. Literally?
https://broadblogs.com/2015/09/02/f-the-patriarchy-literally/
I remember that post…
Anyway, I never said monogamists were patriarchal, but rather that a patriarchy that embraces mongamy will inspire slut-shaming.
By the way, you may find Alana Munro’s book Women Behaving Badly worth reading.
Patriarchy’s encourage monogamy for women in a double standard at doesn’t really punishment men.
But most societies encourage monogamy once you start having families.
(Hmm, the links on that page were broken. I’ve updated them.)
Links to my blog post or yours? If mine can you fill me in on which ones are broken?
Mine – Alana republished her book and it’s only available as a paperback now; and her blog has gone weirdly Japanese.
Okay thanks.
“In a patriarchal society a man can be non-monogamous but his wife must be monogamous. That’s privileging men over women.”
However it’s economically rational in a society where family courts heavily favour the woman, and women marry hypergamously. Since women marry up the financial totem pole, if a woman is faithful, she wins. If a woman is unfaithful, she wins. However a man only wins when the woman is faithful. However feminists want to hold all three bases, privilege in the courts, hypergamous marriage and sexual freedom. Pick any two, because when men are rational actors they can’t let you have all three.
Men are uncomfortable marrying women with higher status than themselves.
Several famous men have been uncomfortable because their wives were more famous than them and got a divorce because of it. Like James Taylor and Ethan Hawke.
So it goes both ways. If we had gender equality this wouldn’t be a problem serious.
By the way, you sometimes post things that look like they might be interesting but I really do need to rest my eyes more– Which is why I’m going down to only two posts the week.
If you want me to post your comments you’re going to need to shorten them.
The length of this comment is fine, which is why I even attempted to read it.
“People should be free to follow with their own interests are.”
Except if you are a white hetero or conservative male.
Thanks but no thank you. I say NO to emasculation.
I don’t get this. I don’t see anything wrong with being White or straight — being both myself. I don’t see any problem with being male — Half of my Friends and family — the people I love — are male.
But when it comes to being conservative I do have issues because conservativism wants to keep power with those who have been traditionally powerful and many people are hurt by that, Like people who are women, Black or brown, non-straight. Why don’t you think they should have equal worth and dignity and equal opportunity?
“Why don’t you think they should have equal worth and dignity and equal opportunity?”
How is that not the moral equivalent on having Olympic marathon quotas for white people on the basis that Kenyans are too good at the marathon?
Completely different. Whether or not you can win an Olympic marathon has nothing to do with your basic worth and dignity as a human being. And everyone should have equal opportunity to try out to be on an Olympic team. Which is exactly what we do have. Yes, the sports are divided by sex because there are sex differences. But everyone has an opportunity to be an Olympic champion.
This piece is really full of falsehoods.
First, as usual you blame patriarchy for everything..As a well-educated person you full well know one factor is rarely the cause of observed phenomena. So, why do you constantly blame patriarchy for everything baffles me to no end.
Second with respect to women having sex…Here is the thing. Women want to have sex with the few percentage of men they want to have sex with. This is why the majority of men struggle to get regular sex with women. Especially when they are young men.
Also, on this slut shaming thing…today women want to be whores and and act like whores but no be called whores. Again, this is just part of this lack of responsibility and a lack of accountability you see with women today. Yes, there is such a thing as a whore and a slut. If you are a 20 year old woman and you have slept with 20-30 men, then you are a whore in my book.
Women lack discipline when it comes to sex. Men have always been blamed by women as being dogs and willing to fuck anything. Now, as things are more open and visible, we now see who the real dogs are and who is really out here fucking anything. It is really women. Just look at some of the men MOST women are willing to have sex with.
The “playing field” does not level out until men are in their late 30s and 40s. Why? Because, most women have lost their prime sexual value by this time and are now willing to seek out those men whom they routinely rejected when young. These women are now looking for lifetime partners to have family and kids. Men who marry these women are doomed to sexless marriages and unfulfilled lives by and large. Hence, we increasingly see men avoiding marriage for this very reason.
The aim of women such as yourself is to emasculate men. You want men to buy into all the wacky, decadent, and immoral behaviors of a lot of women. Women will NOT police their behavior when it comes to sex. So, you are seeking to silence anyone who calls into question the increasingly promiscuous behavior of a lot of women.
Men in general do not want a harlot for a girlfriend or wife. That is universal with most men. Even so called feminist men, unless they are cucks, will not opt for these kinds of women. Look at George Clooney. He married a conservative virginal woman, not one of the trashy women whom he had lots of sex with. Tiger Woods is another example. Look at the woman he married versus the women he was having sex with.
Women want men to accept them after they have slept with 30-40 men. Why? Don’t I as a man get to set my own standards too? Where is your criticism of women who only want me over 6 feet tall or with 9 in cocks? Only an emasculated man is going to be willing to behave in the manner women are asking today. This is why so many men are really opting out, treating women like they are sluts, and just generally not caring much about women.
Your statement is full of falsehoods.
It’s widely established that the more patriarchal the culture, The less interested in sex women are.
Patriarchies systematically work to demean women.
In the case here women are demeaned for doing the same thing that men are celebrated for. Women are routinely slut-shamed which lowers their desire. I have personally experienced this. And a researcher at San Francisco State was actually surprised when she found widespread loss of desire among the young women she studied, and as she talked with them she learned that the cause was women constantly damping down their desire – making it eventually go away. As I said, I have experienced this exact thing.
It is not natural for nearly half of women to have low interest in sex. Yet study after study finds this to be true. You don’t find that in sex-positive cultures that aren’t patriarchal.
Because of women’s low desire it takes a lot to get them interested. And so men who are particularly attractive do have more luck. If you don’t like the situation stop shaming women. And reform the root cause, which is patriarchy.
I fight against racism, why don’t you fight against sexism?
While patriarchy isn’t the root cause of all problems in the world, it is the root cause of all of the problems I discuss in this blog. That’s the focus of the blog: to uncover problems caused by patriarchy.
“It is not natural for nearly half of women to have low interest in sex. Yet study after study finds this to be true. You don’t find that in sex-positive cultures that aren’t patriarchal.”
Please provide sources. Seriously.
You are not going to have me believe that half the women in America are uninterested in sex. That is NOT what I am seeing at all.
“I fight against racism, why don’t you fight against sexism?”
I do. I just don’t equate fighting sexism as being the same as supporting feminism. It seems as if YOU and other feminist want men to swallow their views of fighting sexism hook, line, and sinker.
If women have such a low desire, then why are they obsessed with men and sex today. Young women are basically binging on dicks today. It is not just young women.
The fundamental problem is as I stated: women want to conduct themselves like whores and not be called out for being whores. But, this is they way women are: not responsible for nothing they do. If she decides to fuck the entire Washington Redskins football team, then ALL men should be happy. We must accept it. I call bullshit on this view of life.
You really are being disingenuous here. The message to men is we must ALWAYS accept the bullshit women dish out to us men. I say screw that! I have standards. I have a right to my standards.
I guess you don’t understand the definition of feminism: the belief that women and men are of equal dignity and worth and should have equal opportunities.
As a feminist activist I not only believe this but I work for it.
Here are a few links showing that many studies have found half of American women with low interest in sex:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/31/AR2008103101138.html
That article includes these words: “Previous surveys have reported similar estimates of female sexual dysfunction, including low desire and problems with orgasm. The most widely quoted figure, from the U.S. National Health and Social Life Survey, is 43 percent.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10022110
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/an-overview-of-sexual-dysfunction
I don’t know whether you have any evidence that what you say above is true — some woman f’ing the entire Redskins team. But just because one woman would do that it doesn’t mean that all women are like her.
And you don’t even know for sure what her true motive is. Does she want sex or does she want to feel valued?
One woman who used to be a rockstar groupie said she had sex with them because they were rock gods — gods — and having sex with them made her feel like she was having intercourse with the gods. It wasn’t about sexual pleasure.
And a number of my students have written papers on having sex to feel beautiful:
Sex with Men, Hoping to Feel Beautiful
https://broadblogs.com/2014/02/17/sex-with-men-hoping-to-feel-beautiful-2/
I Wallowed In Self-Pity, Yet I Was A Bombshell
https://broadblogs.com/2013/11/13/i-wallowed-in-self-pity-yet-i-was-a-bombshell/
Using Men for Money, Sex and Self-Esteem
https://broadblogs.com/2015/08/19/using-men-for-money-sex-and-self-esteem/
“The highest prevalence of sexual dysfunction was in older women, but they experienced less associated distress,” Shifren said. “The most distress occurred at mid-life, and the youngest women had the lowest prevalence of problems and of associated distress.”
OK. My point proven!!
Younger women and young women are not experiencing this so-called sexual dysfunction you say is the result of patriarchy.
There is no better time in human history to be man as far as the availability of sex with women than today! If you don’t care about standards, then lots of sex with lots of different women IS available. You can sit in the comfort of your home, car, pool or whatever and swipe right…..In a matter of minutes or hours you can be having sex with some woman. But, the quality of said woman is likely to be very low in my book.
Hardly sounds like repressed desire/arousal to me.
Your point is not proven.
Of course with age you’re going to have more problems — both men and women do — because the body starts shutting down. As you get older women start having less sex — if for no other reason than because of men’s sexual dysfunction. So there’s less distress for women because there is less pressure from men to have sex when they don’t want to.
At young ages women are still much less likely to have an orgasm then men are — about half as likely. A large study by Indiana University asked people whether they’d had an orgasm the last time they had sex. Almost all the young men had but only half of the young women had. And they often need a vibrator — which is a sign of sexual dysfunction that they may not be aware of. Needing a mechanical assist to have an orgasm is not natural.
Other research has also found that the vast majority of women need an emotional connection in order to want to have sex. I’ll be writing about that in my next post.
So you have young women who have a strong preference for sex with emotional connection, and who have less noticeable* sexual dysfunction when they find someone who fits the bill. And many of them simply aren’t having sex — about 1/3 of college women don’t even bother.
That is a very different situation from what you are describing, Which is something that looks like porn. And a lot of men believe what they see in porn. They think it reflects reality. It doesn’t.
Men watch porn, think it’s true, get angry with women because they aren’t getting all this sex. And complain about it with other men.
If that’s not how you are getting your ideas about women’s sexuality where are you getting them? I have seen no data that fits what you describe.
If young women are having sex with young men who they are emotionally connected to, and not having sex if they don’t have that, and they aren’t in long term relationships that last years because they are young (so their interest in sex hasn’t plummeted — see below) then they could have lower levels of sexual dysfunction compared with other women. But it’s still there.
Bottom line: women need very specific situations to not have low interest, no interest, painful sex, difficulty with orgasm.
Also, saying you have desire for sex is a tricky question. People want sex for many reasons other than because it feels pleasurable. As I mentioned, several of my students wrote about having sex with men hoping to feel beautiful. So they would experience themselves as desiring sex, but not for the reason you’re thinking. They want to lift their self esteem, not feel pleasure. Some of them — maybe all of them — even said that, looking back, they didn’t actually enjoy the sex.
Women in the middle ages have the biggest problem. Because women’s desire is repressed in our culture it takes more to get women interested. In long-term relationships men’s desire dips a bit but women’s tends to plummet. So women are feeling sexual dysfunction AND pressure from spouses, creating distress.
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*If they need a vibrator they won’t count it as dysfunction. And if it is early in a relationship or not along relationship they will probably have some desire and since they’re young it will be easier to lubricate. Still, it’s widely talked about that sex the first time is painful for women. That’s also not natural. That is another indication of sexual dysfunction.
And keep in mind that at the younger ages not all women are having sex. As I mentioned, one third of college women in hookup culture don’t bother having sex at all. And I’m guessing that this study is done on women who have had sex, who are more likely to be the interested half.
By the time you get to the middle ages women are more likely to have Partners who expect sex.
Overall, it seems that you don’t see women in their multidimensionality. You just see them as sex objects who are anxious to have sex and all about sex – the way porn portrays them.
“Needing a mechanical assist to have an orgasm is not natural.”
Citation?
Wearing spectacles in order to have good eyesight is, in a sense, natural. In Shanghai, for instance, 86 percent of high school students suffer from myopia and need spectacles. Should we blame the oppressive patriarchy for this?
Why do you always look at reality, and assume reality is “wrong” and the result of some conspiracy?
Women were given the ability to enjoy sexual pleasure — that’s the only thing the clitoris is created for. And created way, way, way before we had technology like vibrators. And in sex-positive societies women don’t need a mechanical assist — that’s how we know it’s not natural.
Many people have written about this but you can take a look at David Buss, “Why Women Have Sex,” which comes quick to mind.
I don’t agree with him on all of his evolutionary theories (I can critique them all) but he’s got some really good basic survey data in that book.
It’s very simple. Women are valued more than men. Society place women in a higher position than men.
Remember, women and children first.
Men can go to war and kill themselves. First and second world war. Society sees men as expendables. Just part of the machine. They can go to factories and work under the surface in coal minings. They can work to death
But women are beautiful and majestic.
Those who are in power have created racism and the so-called patriarchy to divide the common people and that way it’s easier to be controlled.
How about the homeless people?
The vast majority are males. So much for patriarchy.
They (the very few elite rich people) want to divide people and spread hatred among people and it’s working.
Divide and conquer
Everything you described has to do with valuing children. Not women.
Women are historically protected because they give birth. Mothers are more likely to have custody of their children not because women are favored but because the court looks at the best interest of the child, and because women make more sacrifices of their careers in order to care for children, the children are usually more bonded to their mothers.
Fathers are also more likely to abandon their families than mothers are.
If you look at women outside of the childbearing role they are valued less. Women have no problem taking on male traits because they aren’t seeing as demeaning themselves when they do. But when men take on feminine traits they are seeing as the meaning themselves. Women are routinely called derogatory names like slut, bitch, hoe. We don’t have negative words that routinely describe only men. Women are paid less. “Household head” is usually thought of as the man. Women hold a tiny minority of power in government, business and religion. Women are shamed for being the victim of a crime like rape. In some societies they are killed for being the victim of rape. Even hear some women who are victims have been shamed into killing themselves.
I could go on …
I think there is truth or must be something to that. And it may be how people see having sex with many men, because many men are naturally “easy” that it’s nothing to be proud about. So even if a woman hooks up with other women it’s more of an achievement when bedding another lesbian perhaps, because the more selective and lower desire from women compared to men generally. I think this is true because I think I talked about it and here’s an example. It does seem not simply how many people a girl has sex with but who, as in the gender they are. And it’s probably due to society viewing a woman “slutty or easy” when having sex with a lot of men because men have low standards and always ready for sex, whereas women, it takes charm, skill, etc to lure a girl for sex. So that’s why I think or what I believe like for bisexual girls.
A bisexual girl is often seen as “slutty” if she’s promiscuous and the majority of the sex she’s having is with men. Whereas, a bisexual girl who is promiscuous but the majority of sex she’s had is with other girls, maybe she isn’t so “slutty.” I said this before, but I’d bet $ if people knew the number of people both bisexual girls had sex with and the sex they had with sex with. Say girl A has had 30 partners but 25 guys and 5 girls, and girl B had same number, but 25 girls she had sex with and 5 guys. I would lay $ down that girl A would be slut shamed and girl B probably not or girl A, much, much more shamed even though they had sex with the same number of people, but it”s because the first girl had sex with many men, vs girl B had sex with many girls and just a few guys. It does seem a lot of it is about men and that does seem in relation to the lesbian and gay thing here like you’ve said. interesting.
Yeah it is seen as more of an accomplishment to have sex with a woman than a man. We repress and lower women’s desire because patriarchy slut-shames women.
And then men complain that women won’t have sex with them. But then “men” and “patriarchy” are two different things. Patriarchy is a system that both women and men can buy into — both genders do it. And both genders refuse to do it. Depends on how patriarchal you are.
But I also know plenty of patriarchal men who shame women and then complain that they can’t get sex.
But you make an interesting bet. Interested to see if anyone has had this experience.
Makes me wonder in the lbgt community like this post brings up with slut shaming. If it goes based on how hot the person is too? Like it says gay men slut shaming. I wonder if it’s the good looking guys in the gay community who are more often slut shamed, because by doing so, they lowered their standards if hooking up with multiple men, especially if men they hook up with are less attractive or much so. And on the other side if it’s the less attractive lesbians, but one’s who carry more assertiveness, thus the one’s who “pursue” in the lesbian dynamic. If because lesbian women, or hot lesbian women may be picky like straight women are to men.
That perhaps some “game” is needed for the pursuing, “more mascline-minded” lesbians who are less attractive or maybe very average looking and body. So these average janes hook up with hot women out of their league or have dates, that this is an accomplishment based on the dynamic and looks scale. I wonder about that, because society can see the “hot” person as more of the catch as far sex goes, but also as a result higher expectation of their standards. Just food for thought.
In straight culture when women slut-shame women it’s usually more to do with their looks than their behavior, and stems from jealousy. And gay culture does put a premium on good looks, much more so than lesbians do. So it’s possible that jealousy lies behind the shaming in both, but I don’t know.
“But I also know plenty of patriarchal men who shame women and then complain that they can’t get sex.”
Don’t I have the right to demand what I want in a woman?
You consistently avoid answering very important questions. Why is it wrong for a man (or woman) to have standards of conduct?
If I don’t want a slutty woman, that is my damn right! What is wrong with having standards?
You NEVER complain about the how woman have standards and requirements to have sex with men. WHY?
As I recall you hold the same standard for yourself that you hold for women. Which is fine, so long as it’s not a double standard.
I’m not complaining about you. I’m complaining about patriarchy, which is a system of privileging males over females.
While I believe — as I believe you do too — that we should not shame sexuality, I also think that people should not feel pressured to behave in ways that aren’t comfortable for them, whether that is pressure to have a lot of sex or no sex.
The rule is simple, you congratulate someone for getting a woman into bed, because its so hard to pull off. Getting a man into bed = no challenge whatsoever, therefore not to be congratulated.
Right.
And patriarchy lies behind that because we punish and shame women’s sexuality, leading to a loss of women’s desire.