9 PM Curfew For Toxic Masculinity

Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir on curfews for men.

Years ago when Israel faced a rape epidemic someone suggested putting women under curfew until the country was safe again.

Prime Minister Golda Meir thought better: Men are committing the rapes. Let them be put under curfew.

I thought of that when Danielle Muscato wondered on Twitter,

What would you do if all men had a 9 pm curfew?

The thought experiment was not a serious proposal, but plenty of men didn’t get that. And one of my male readers fretted about dismissing male victims and placing all men in the same box. “I’d feel a whole lot safer if all men (except me) were under curfew,” he mused.

So I’ll rephrase: If toxic masculinity were put under 9 PM curfew, what would you do?

I was struck by how safe I suddenly felt with all that poison safely contained. I could go anywhere, anytime and feel safe. 

(Unfortunately, the most dangerous place for most women is actually in their homes because too many women are in relationships with men who are filled with that toxicity.)

Toxic masculinity isn’t all men

Many confuse “toxic masculinity” with “men.” They aren’t the same thing. Toxicity arises when men behave in ways that hurt others because of the way we socially construct masculinity. How masculinity is understood actually varies from place to place. And how men fit these roles also varies, with some good and some hurtful.

Here in the United States masculinity is commonly associated with four characteristics, with varying degrees of harm:

  1. Men must always there to support others. That’s a positive human trait and not part of toxic masculinity, unless a man feels like he can’t seek any support himself.
  2. Men must achieve status through power, money, and sex. Not necessarily bad. But because this is such a heavy part of the male role in America, men who fall short may put others down (often including emotional and physical abuse), diminishing those they hurt in hopes of raising themselves up by comparison. Toxic.
  3. Men can’t be sissies leaves men out of touch with their softer side. They can’t be compassionate or express feelings other than anger. “No sissy stuff” is not a healthy attitude toward the feminine side of human nature (held by women and men, alike). 
  4. Men must be tough, proving masculinity by scaring people, gang rapes, dangerous deeds to “prove” fearlessness and superiority. It creates hell on Earth. The definition of toxic.

It sure would be great to put toxic masculinity on 9 pm curfew. Better yet, ban it completely. 

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About BroadBlogs

I have a Ph.D. from UCLA in sociology (emphasis: gender, social psych). I currently teach sociology and women's studies at Foothill College in Los Altos Hills, CA. I have also lectured at San Jose State. And I have blogged for Feminispire, Ms. Magazine, The Good Men Project and Daily Kos. Also been picked up by The Alternet.

Posted on October 22, 2018, in men, rape and sexual assault, violence against women and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 82 Comments.

  1. I personally do not like toxic masculinity and have always thought that it is pointless. Now don’t get me wrong that masculinity in general is cool, not to the point of it physically and emotionally hurting other people. I do not think having masculinity have a curfew at 9 is necessarily a bad idea, but if women are most vulnerable at home with the guy that is toxic doesn’t that make it harder for her to not be in that situation? Also for toxic masculinity, I’ve always there have been other ways to expressing masculinity without it even being toxic. Crying for starters is NOT soft, it’s a normal emotion. You can be there for your friends with out supporting the wrong thing. Be the better friend and not let them get in that kind of situation in the first place. Lastly you do not need to knock down other people to raise yourself, just out work them

  2. I think there are other parts about toxic masculinity. While the first characteristic is men must always be there to support others, I’ve heard many cases where mothers and wives are unable to talk to their husbands on certain personal issues. Also that they are unable to rely on their husband to take care of children. In this case, men rely on women for domestic affairs such as setting doctor appointments, cooking meals, cleaning the house, doing laundry, etc. In the third characteristic of how men can’t be sissies, there’s also how differently men express their emotions. I’ve heard and even seen cases of men being angry, they yell, they throw punches, they hit, they stamp their feet, and they blame others. Similar to how a toddler or a child expresses their anger. This shows that the emotional development of most, I’m putting emphasis on most, men stops at a young age. They aren’t taught how to properly express different emotions, instead they are forced to bottle it up and eventually express it in a selfish manner. These are experiences that I’ve had and heard from others and I’m open to hear what anyone else has experienced also.

  3. Toxic masculinity is a problem, however i don’t think that putting all men under a curfew would make a huge difference to our society, because most men are decent human beings, hard working fathers, we should not label all men as toxic, man are taught to be superior, and show their superiority by using harsh words beating and rape, this reaction is based on how boys have been raise boys are taught not to cry, not to express their feelings, to constantly be  tough. It might be easier to put a curfew on a teen boys and young adults anything under 18 years. knowing where your son is, been involve in their lives, having serious consequences for bad actions and bad behavior. showing affection towards them and teaching them to express them selves in a peaceful way with out hurting others specially love once. Raising our children to be decent human beings might work better, then putting them on a curfew later in life.

    • And the thing is that yes, most men are good men. The problem is that you don’t know which ones are the bad ones.

      I used to feel insulted, when I was a little girl, that birds were afraid of me. I wanted to pet them. And while most people won’t hurt birds some will, and so the birds are afraid of everyone, Even though almost everyone would be kind to them. But that’s what you do to survive.

  4. If Toxic masculinity is constructed from how society teaches its children, especially boys, then by putting a curfew on toxic masculinity, you essentially change society to a non-gender conforming society in which everyone expresses themselves the way they want to express themselves. Most of the time, the children who are taught these expectations are the ones usually enforcing it. Many men act a certain way not because they truly act a certain way, but because men want to seek approval by other men. Toxic masculinity is the result of groupthink in which a group of people think the same way in order to be part of the “in-group”, but it is at the cost of individuality. By removing toxic masculinity at night, you are essentially removing the need to seek approval by other people and promote individuality. We would see a large variety of personalities in not only men, but also women as this limit is removed. People would be able to act the way they want to act without being looked down upon by society. Society would greatly benefit as individualism would grow and we would see a movement similar to the Romantic or Transcendentalist era as the individual would focused rather than society.

    • Interesting. Interesting as a thought experiment. I see things a little differently. Boys are taught from a young age to act in certain ways, unfortunately many of which are hurtful, but it is unconsciously internalized and feels natural and normal to the grown man who acts it out. If we didn’t raise boys with the idea of no sissy stuff and give them hell then men would be disinclined to drive dangerously, drink dangerously, rape, batter, Terrorism, mass killings… And they would be more in touch with their positive emotions and more willing to seek support Instead of feeling that they always have to be the support. Well, I could go on…

  5. Eli Harrison Pritchard

    I have felt knee jerk reactions from other men if a question is phrased that in a sort general appeal. Typically, they are used to set some of barrier between them and other men or to state that not every man applies. I think there is a conversation to have about male victims of sexual assault, however the question to me is a thought experiment designed at expressing frustration with a particular common brand of victim blaming aimed at women. I think that comes down to how I would answer the question of what would you do? Is that as a man I am shielded from the concept to a point where I have almost no answer. I believe that response is the core of the question, in not having a frame of reference you realize just how much privilege you have. In defending the innocence of men, you miss the point of the question entirely by making it about yourself, instead of interacting with it. I don’t think there is always animosity the latter response just a failure to recognize how one interacts with toxic masculinity(or that as a man it effects you negatively aswell).

  6. I had not really heard of toxic masculinity up until a few years ago. I mean, I knew of these behaviors and that they were not good but I hadn’t really known what to call them or that there was a name for them. I think these hypothetical situations such as men having a curfew or toxic masculinity having a curfew stir up interesting dialogues that I think are ultimately positive. Each one I have witnessed has usually shed some light on how some behaviors may negatively affect others or even how a behavior has affected me. A lot of the ideas that culminate in toxic masculinity tend to be passed down, I think, and taught at a young age. However, this also means that it can be changed. I think that participating and learning in the dialogues on toxic masculinity can help minimize the prevalence of toxic masculinity. I know that discussions on the topic have certainly helped me to see how these behaviors may affect others and start to make changes to avoid some.

    • I appreciate your thoughtful response. So important to realize that because it is culturally constructed it is completely changeable. And the only way that any of us can improve is by seeing the ways we have been harmed, which can cause us to harm others, and doing something about it.

  7. I saw this on Twitter and was struck by the fact that most women had the same answer for what they would do after 9pm – they would go outside. There were no wild plans for crazy nights out, it was just women wanting to take a walk in the park, enjoy the city lights, or ride the subway to a friend’s house without the fear of violence. Unfortunately, this tweet was responded to with quite a bit of negativity. Many many instantly screamed the “not all men” rhetoric that we are all so tired of hearing, even though this tweet focused on toxic masculinity, not men. Toxic masculinity can oftentimes affect men more than women, since it causes men to be forced to bottle up their emotions and only be able to show anger. When men aren’t allowed to cry or be soft in a society, this leads to outbursts of anger, which is the root of much violence that we see today.

  8. It’s unsettling just how many things came to mind that I would be able to do with this 9:00 toxic masculinity curfew, and so quickly might I add. Of course, not all men, but as you put it, most men are taught this idea of ‘masculinity’ which without proper upbringing and psychological education, these seemingly innocuous traits have the potential to become toxic and dangerous to those around them, especially to women. Ironically enough, as masculinity emphasizes toughness, in my experience, there is nothing more fragile than masculinity itself. Being that in order for a man to be seen as successful by his male peers, he must embody this unemotional, strong, and sexually desirable essence, which contradicts human nature, it is very difficult for one to keep up this facade. The danger in this is in those men who are terrified of being exposed as an emotional being, as humans are, and therefore act out in ways to prove to mainly themselves their own masculinity, which more than often puts others around them in toxic and often dangerous situations.

  9. This idea of toxic masculinity is a problem we all have faced throughout our lives at one point, and like how you mentioned, it impacts men and women. Putting a curfew on men, may not be the solution, like you said, but maybe the real problem is that we as society allow this by using social media and through television and movies. Through social media, where many pictures of men are always viral based on the masculinity traits of those males. If they for example, have a body of high amounts of muscle or they have large amounts of skin covered by tattoos. These images portray to many men, who seek to become like these males in the picture, thus causing a social obligation for men to act “manly” and thus increasing the toxic masculinity in our society. Televisions and movies do the same because most TV shows or new movies are mostly of males in great physical form who act tough, who “save the girl”, and who are ultimately portrayed as the ideal man that everyone else wants to follow. These images also create a social obligation for all men to act like these actors. With these social obligations, many males start to hold in their softer sides and can only contain it , until they release this built up frustration onto violence because in the male culture, this way of releasing frustration is the only way males are taught to. So going back to this idea of having a curfew for men, maybe we need to break down these social obligations in order to stop these toxic masculinity traits from increasing in our society, and hopefully this would benefit not only the safety of women from sexual assault, but help make the male culture more accepting.

  10. I believe the idea of having a curfew for toxic masculinity brings a lot of topics into light that many forget to discuss when it comes to men being dangerous and needing a curfew and not women. Many men get defensive and say they are not like other men and use that as an excuse for nothing being done to protect women from being harassed or raped. This is as is mentioned very true, there are many men who do not have violent intentions when they see a woman walking alone, but there are also men who do have these intentions. This is what makes women feel unsafe, they do not know which men do and which men don’t have the intentions to harm them. I also believe that men do not stand up for women when they hear their friends talking about women like they are sex objects that they can do whatever they please to whenever they please. This to me is a problem and needs to be addressed. Many men who use the defense that they are not like other men actually know men who are like that. This to me is extremely unsettling and men need to realize that they too need to step up and stand up for women.

    • Well not all men are alike but we raise boys in a way that encourages toxic masculinity.

    • “Many men who use the defense that they are not like other men actually know men who are like that. This to me is extremely unsettling and men need to realize that they too need to step up and stand up for women.”

      As Cain replied to God, “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

      Yes, I know men who say rather harsh things about women. I do not permit such men to do this at my home or business.

      Question: Do YOU challenge women who say ugly things about men? Women who also regard their fuck buddies as little more than sex objects to be shared with their other girlfriends? Do you care about such behavior on the part of women? How many do you know who stand up for men when we are abused and mistreated by women?

      Please do not get “defensive” or cry misogynist blah blah blah.

      If you truly want equality, then you have also call out the bullshit that women do to men. Right? Otherwise, why should I as a man unilaterally chastise men for their lousy behavior. When women in this country start calling out other women for their shitty behavior, then men will do the same for other men. Otherwise, why should men do so?

    • Oh yes, what exactly isn’t being done to stop women being raped?

  11. A lot of these arguments against toxic masculinity are disingenuous. Anyone with half a brain can understand the distinction. (Sadly, between Russian bots and US-billionaire-funded alt-right hate groups, the willful ignorance, disinformation and general toxicity in social media have escalated to dystopian levels.)

    Toxic masculinity is of course a problem, and it ties in with homophobia (open affection between men anywhere except the football field is strictly forbidden) and transphobia (men are not women! & v-v) – neither of which is a problem restricted to *men*. Gender critical feminists may claim to hate the patriarchy and gender stereotypes, but they seek to reinforce the division between the sexes, and are scathing about the appearance of trans women.

    The problem is not intrinsically femininity or masculinity, but rather the restrictive social rules imposed on these – that a man must be outspoken and aggressive, and a woman quiet and passive, etc. – that makes these toxic.

    • Good to hear from you. Thanks for your thoughts.

    • Just trying to understand

      “Gender critical feminists may claim to hate the patriarchy and gender stereotypes, but they seek to reinforce the division between the sexes, and are scathing about the appearance of trans women.”
      IMO, being treated equally is not interchangeable with being treated the same. There should be some division between the sexes. Men and women are not the same. Men and women should not compete against each in most sports. Transgenderism and transracialism are problematic. Especially when it comes to self-identifying. Just like toxic masculinity, no one wants to talk about it. Also, it makes no sense to me how people can accept transgenderism but reject transracialism.

      • it’s true that there are biological differences so that I agree that there should be men’s teams and women’s teams. XX v XY makes a difference.

        On the other hand, if someone feels like they were born in the wrong body because their mind doesn’t match social expectations for their biology, or whatever, I don’t have a problem with trans anything. But since both gender and race are social constructs I think people make too big a deal out of both.

      • So you believe transgender people shouldn’t compete in sports because XX v XY makes s difference?

      • Depends on the sport. Something like curling probably doesn’t make any difference. But with some sports it does. You see the genetic differences in gymnastics for instance. Man have more upper body strength and their events emphasize that with the high bar and rings, for instance. Women have more flexibility and better balance, so women do balance beam but men don’t.

      • We’re used to the idea of the man/woman binary, and so much of our history is predicated on it. But it’s not an absolute. We can make statements like, “Most/Many men are …,” and, “Most/Many women are …,” but as soon as we say, “All men/women are …,” we end up invalidating a subset of thinking breathing human beings who deserve better. Even XX and XY are not absolutes. We are far too complex and diverse for a binary division.

      • That’s true. A study was done to see if you could predict sex just by knowing certain things like a person‘s interests etc. The only thing you can strongly predict is who is stronger, with men notably more so. But with who likes poetry, who likes cats … Can’t accurately predict just by knowing the sex of the person.

      • Just trying to understand

        “We are far too complex and diverse for a binary division.”

        Can you explain binary division and how society would be changed if it was removed? I want to make sure my arguments are inline with your definitions.

  12. Estrogen is also associated with aggression. When mice were bred so that they had no estrogen their aggression went away. Think about the mama bear protecting her young.”

    Well I appreciate you trying to show how female hormones and aspect can be aggressive as well. But that aggression is “good aggression”, it’s altruistic aggression and nurturing aggression. It’s a protective aggression. If higher estrogen shown aggression as in violence not related to protection and simply tempers, than that would show the capacity for the hormone matching testosterone. If estrogen peaking showed females be aggressive just based out of anger or retaliation or territory not related to protection of themselves of their young, then that would show more ‘bad aggression”. Bad aggression is fighting because of tempers uncontrolled and wanting to exact punishment via violence. Or harming someone out of sadistic joy or control or power. Or impulse. Yes a majority of men don’t rape and kill and such. But unfortunately it seems like more decent men, while not criminals and not one’s who would harm a woman. Among many decent men, a decent amount I feel have been in bar fights, stupid fights at a stadium, etc. Yes women can get in physical fights at clubs and such, but guy fights way out number women’s in general. Alcohol can effect anybody, but for some reason dudes can be stupid and more likely to get in a brawls when drunk even if they wouldn’t rape someone or do bad things.

    They can be otherwise decent men or criminals, but were in a bad mood than night and wanted to pick a fight with a guy or who knows. Look at road rage. Women can be aggressive drivers and swerve in front of someone out of anger or flip someone off. But like 98% of the time, road rage violence or death is men. Dudes pulling over just do they can duke it out, because they feel the need to take their life stresses out on each other. Interesting women don’t feel the impulse like men to try to cope with their anger and stress in life by beating someone up, because it’s like metaphorical anger release. Oh yeah this doesn’t harm anyone. but stupid harmful stunts. I’ve noticed that, like the show Jackass. I’ve seen so many clips on espn or bloopers of various stunts where someone does a stupid trick like jumping off a roof into a pool or with ski doo and they get hurt bad. You know what gender I see doing them like 99% of the time? Yep, it’s men lol. There are female dare devils, but I have to hand it to women being smart enough. Dudes on the other hand, I guess that aggression are quite the risk takers. And i think it’s why car insurance is higher on men too, because of more unsafe driving from men because of this aggressiveness.

    • It’s hard to untangle the effects of testosterone on aggression because women are more sensitive to the testosterone they have, even though they have less of it, women also have estrogen which is tied to aggression, and we have a society that encourages aggression much more in boys then in girls.

      And if you go cross-culturally you find that in gender-equal societies men are much less violent towards everyone, at least in the in group.

      But cross-culturally men are also taught to be more violent because they are the ones chosen to war and hunt, historically, partly because they have more muscular strength and partly because, in the small tribal societies where humans started, you don’t want to “waste“ women who bear children. (The bigger your tribe the more powerful you are.) Plus you don’t have birth control or bottles and it’s much easier for women to gather food with a baby on her back and then feed it as needed than to be out hunting or in war with the baby attached. That would be ridiculous. So that is our cultural history, and it’s been passed down from generation to generation, encouraging girls to be more nurturing caregivers and men to be more aggressive and violent.

  13. I know it is wrong to say it would make me feel safer if all men had a curfew, but it would. Intellectually I also know that this isn’t all men, but in reality, more crimes against women are caused by men, not women against women. Not to contradict myself, I also would hate to cluster good men into the “all men” curfew. My boyfriend is a hard working perfect gentlemen, as are members of my family, my son etc. There’s no way this would ever happen, except in some kind of sci fi future where men went out of control. It is an interesting thought experiment, but it is kind of the same thing as putting a curfew on Muslims because of a handful of people who were terrorists, who happen to be Muslim. Punishing all for the crimes of a few isn’t fair. A curfew isn’t the answer. Consistent discipline and consistent consequences is the answer, as well as leaders who are willing to enact this consistency. Even though it would make me feel safer, I don’t think it would make me happier. It would very much so bother me because I know it would be an injustice to so many people.

  14. So a question for you. We have all of these definitions of what toxic masculinity is. Can you tell me what examples of masculinity are good? I think that is the reason why some men and women are quick to complain. It’s not that they don’t see a difference between masculinity and toxic masculinity, it’s that nobody even knows how to define what masculinity is anymore.

    • Well, both women and men have both a masculine and feminine side to their personalities. And the healthiest people have access to both sides, and are not restricted to only half of their humanity.

      “Masculine” is what a society defines it as being, and the definition varies from place to place. For instance, America today values tough guys but our founding fathers sought to be gentlemen who valued grace, and wore ruffles and lace.

      Looking at what our society today defines as masculine here are some of the positive qualities: strength, supportive, leader, assertive, adventurous, courage.

  15. “There is a correlation between gender equality and lower levels of rape and crimes against women. The culture today it’s also more feminist than it was in 1980.”

    YES!!! Much to the detriment of us men AND society. We have an entire generation of WEAK, EFFEMINATE, and LOST MEN.

    What is so ironic is that the clear majority of women cannot stand these “new” men. The only time they want to engage them is for either purely platonic friendships or to use them for some cause or purpose. Most women certainly do NOT find these men to be sexually desirable.

    “I’m completely confused as to why you find it offensive to point this out.”

    Frankly I disagree with the entire premise of your argument. You constantly criticize the way boys are raised. Yet, you say most boys “turn out OK.” You are always attacking men with the patriarchy nonsense (except for Muslim men). Muslim men, the most patriarchal of all perhaps, get a free pass due to PC. Only Christians are singled out. But, I digress.

    If most turn out OK, then why are we labeling men as toxic? Why are we even dealing with the issue?

    People like you, leftist, liberals, and feminists simply want to subjugate men. You want to emasculate men.

    There are evil and disgusting women who do nasty things to men. They are the minority. But, no one complains about these “toxic” women. Why? Because women have been socialize to think it is OK to exploit, use, and take advantage of men. Especially if they are offering him sex.

    Most women do NOT even like most men! Yet, that is NOT the case when it comes to how we men perceive women. Don’t you find that problematic?

    Why have the majority of women been socialized to dislike the majority of men? Clearly, this is not healthy for either human relations or society. But, no one goes around barking “toxic femininity.” Why is that I wonder?

    I think further “debate” is utterly pointless. Like Hillary, you simply don’t get it.

    Thanks for indulging me.

    • I’m not sure why so many men want to believe that toxic masculinity is inevitable. It isn’t.

      Some cultures have low rates of murder, suicide, rape, sexual harassment. And the rates correlate with levels of toxic masculinity which derives from patriarchy.

      Gender-equal societies are much more benevolent to both women and men.

      Our Founding Fathers expressed positive masculinity. It’s not like men have no other choice.

      • What cultures have low rates of murder, suicide, rape, sexual harassment? Are they still around today?

      • Forager societies are still around today. They are on every continent and show the same pattern of gender equality and low rates of violence against women.

        When Europeans first came to the American continent they were shocked by the gender equality and low rates of violence among the American Indians.

        Historical evidence also suggest high rates of gender equality and low rates of violence against women among the Norse and the Celtic and pre-Celtic people of the British Isles.

        There are also correlations in the modern world such as these:

        Highly patriarchal cultures like north Vietnam have higher rates of wife battering. In a study of small villages every single village found at least half of women battered and some found all of the women’s battered. More moderate patriarchal cultures like ours have a far lower rate (about 15%).

        And within the United States you see violence against women decreasing as gender equality increases.

      • Yeah, um.. the last time you appealed to the gender equal forager societies, I asked you to get specific. When I looked up one of these tribes you appealed to it turned out they were cannibals who warred with neighbouring tribes and took their women as booty. You handily ignored that.

      • Why don’t you send me a reference.

        And read this: How Hunter-Gatherers Maintained Their Egalitarian Ways

        During the twentieth century, anthropologists discovered and studied dozens of different hunter-gatherer societies, in various remote parts of the world, who had been nearly untouched by modern influences. Wherever they were found–in Africa, Asia, South America, or elsewhere; in deserts or in jungles–these societies had many characteristics in common. The people lived in small bands, of about 20 to 50 persons (including children) per band, who moved from camp to camp within a relatively circumscribed area to follow the available game and edible vegetation. The people had friends and relatives in neighboring bands and maintained peaceful relationships with neighboring bands. Warfare was unknown to most of these societies, and where it was known it was the result of interactions with warlike groups of people who were not hunter-gatherers. In each of these societies, the dominant cultural ethos was one that emphasized individual autonomy, non-directive childrearing methods, nonviolence, sharing, cooperation, and consensual decision-making. Their core value, which underlay all of the rest, was that of the equality of individuals.
        https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/201105/how-hunter-gatherers-maintained-their-egalitarian-ways

  16. In cultures with gender equality, as with American Indians on the east coast to the Americas before the Europeans re-socialized them, rape and battering were virtually nonexistent. So you see what’s possible when you have strong native men, but not toxic masculinity.”

    Didn’t native americans fight other tribes though? I know the europeans were worse, but didn’t certain tribes scalp women and with the tribes that fought each other, they didn’t take over the tribe? Often in war and battle women are raped when a tribe, or country or whatever is taken over. Men of the following tribe or country killed and women raped. I know you’ve defended feminism which I understand, but do you see why other feminists not like you and others can rub people the wrong way even if they aren’t radical themselves?

    • Yes, here’s what American Indians (East coast of the Americas) have in common with Vikings: they could be violent towards those outside their group, and great warriors. But within the group women were treated well. Among the these American Indians rape and battering were virtually unknown. Viking men could rape slaves but not women of their communities, which was strongly punished when it occurred.

      • Yeah but unfortunately it doesn’t mean much really that men aren’t inherently worse than women. It means culture makes the violence worse of course and with a better culture less violence and rape. The women were treated well in such community of the native americans and vikings. It unfortunatley seems to still point that men are predisposed still to more aggression which can be violent or brought out with bad culture, personality and such. Because if such men in this cultures were as innocent as women, the slaves wouldn’t be killed or I believe the vikings did rape the women of countries they conquered. And I believe indian tribes weren’t too kind to the people of tribes they conquered. And most likely scalped them and raped the women there. Even though history has been white washed and it’s actually more often that europerans were the cruel ones to indians and killing and harming the women in the indian tribe.

        There were times with settles and people living, where tribes who taken out the homes would kill the men and women I believe raped. So the peace might’ve been toward their own women, but showed rape still happened by same tribes when defeating other tribes. I understand some of the warrior aspects or war or some tribes were of survival and getting resources. But it points to what biologists have felt this aggression from men or more so than women, which come correlate to men even though a minority being more violent in sexually and non sexually. The fact that it wasn’t all eastern tribes says something too despite them not being influenced by european cultures or before they came along. I thought, i don’t know if I mixed them up. But I thought it was either the Iroquious or Algonquins who were an invading tribe and more barbaric compared to the other tribes. I don’t remember which ones though

      • Among Indians of the east coast of the Americas rape seems to be nonexistent whether for the in group or out group. Plus, the vast majority of men even in America today don’t rape. So it isn’t a necessary thing. And the level of rape, and violence against women generally, decreases as gender equality increases.

        Estrogen is also associated with aggression. When mice were bred so that they had no estrogen their aggression went away. Think about the mama bear protecting her young.

  17. Well it’s good you don’t feel that way. I don’t know how many feminists are like you. But you see, this is the reason why feminism gets a bad rap. That Danielle person who made the viral tweet is a social activist and feminist. And while not a radical man hating feminist. As you can see though, this person singled out men. You said toxic masculinity. “She” could have asked like in a general question. What would you do if most men had a 9pm curfew. “She” speficially wrote “ladies’ or to the ladies. Which completely minimized men as victims or naive thinking like men don’t get attacked or have fears and such. Yes women are more vulnerable and deal with rape fears and stuff more then men. But there are more male to male homicides too. I might not be raped, but I could have guys come up to me with a gun wanting to take my money and maybe they decide they don’t want me to be a witness anymore and shoot me and kill me.

    And then which you pointed out and I already knew the stats, with women are more likely harmed by men they know than complete strangers.Yet this feminist still decided to generalize men and stranger men when it’s toxic men who women know that are more likely to hurt a woman. While I have empathy and was aware without this tweet of women’s fears and such culture to improve or men like that to clean up their act. This is why feminism often gives people a bad taste in their mouth even when they aren’t radical. The way that person tweeted it, rubbed me the wrong way even though I get that it was about empathy for women. Obviously women are in an inclusive club to this feminist, not men, even though this is not a rare thing for men to be male victims. I could see if it was, but like I said there are a ton of male to male homicides each year and these often happen from stranger me or from the streets at night.

    • I’ve been surprised at how often man seem to be quite toxic masculinity with masculinity. Boys are raised in a particular way that can lend it self to toxicity with give them hell, no sissy stuff in particular, but even the others. Luckily, most men are good men. And of course neither men nor women are perfect.

      • Thank you. No men or women are perfect, when you see tweets like that, even though I think for good reasons. And women, well yes it would be safer, but acting like it would be perfect because now they are around the perfect gender around them (women) right?

        I get it and why, as yes I’d feel safer around more women than men too. But I’m not naive to think it will just be grand, utopian and with no care in the world like some women made it sound. Like skip to my lou, etc. I don’t know how it is with feminists, but how many attack or make sure to attack the culture, not the sex? That’s why I like this site, it changed my view. But it seems like there’s quite, a middle ground. I’m sure radical feminists are the minority. And people like this Danielle person aren’t radical nor bad, but I can see how they rub people the wrong way.I don’t mean like conservative men,and guys who are like some commenters here.

        But even more independent and liberal people or open minded people can be rubbed the wrong way too. Yes I know it’s not new and it’s probably social media which is why it seems like more. I know its a minority, but it seems like one of the very rare things which are mass attacks or shootings or such are almost always done by men. It’s weird though, there seem to be mass attacks by women and I don’t recall that ever before. I know it’s an anomaly, but one was the youtube, crazy youtube woman that went to youtube head quarters to shoot the people there early in the summer and this recent messed up news from Florida very recently.

        Girls armed with knives plotted attack at Florida middle school, police say

        https://www.ajc.com/news/crime–law/girls-armed-with-knives-plotted-attack-florida-middle-school-police-say/bwMftVetm48Rv0fW2cxg3L/

        “Two students at Bartow Middle School, in Bartow, Florida, came to school with knives and planned to attack students Tuesday, according to the Bartow Police Department.”

        “Staff asked the girl why she had a weapon, and she said she and the other girl were plotting to attack and kill as many students as they could, Hall said.

        Police then searched the girls and found several more knives, including a butcher knife, Hall said.”

        Luckily they caught things and stopped the attacks, but girls were planning at mass attack or mass murder, and very sick too, knives, butch knives, etc.

      • I don’t think the world would be perfect without toxic masculinity because human beings are just imperfect. You would still have both evil men and women. But you’d have less problems when boys aren’t raised in ways that make them more likely to murder, commit suicide, commit rape, sexual harassment…

        None of those things come naturally to men. The problem is the way they’re taught. Fortunately our environments don’t determine who we are, so some men are more prone to negative outcome than others. And luckily most men still manage to be good decent human beings.

        In cultures with gender equality, as with American Indians on the east coast to the Americas before the Europeans re-socialized them, rape and battering were virtually nonexistent. So you see what’s possible when you have strong native men, but not toxic masculinity.

      • “Boys are raised in a particular way that can lend it self to toxicity with give them hell, no sissy stuff in particular, but even the others.”

        This is extremely upsetting to me as a man. It is FALSE!!

        Here are facts…

        Men commit 90% of ALL violent crime in the US. With that being said, less than 3% of ALL adult men are the culprits! Think about that for a moment. PLEASE. Of the violent crime perpetrated by these men, 85% is directed at other men. Not women.

        No, there is no difference between “toxic masculinity” and masculinity.

        It is a red herring created as a way of subjugating men. Just how a woman with a son, a brother, a father, could believe in this is beyond me.

        Since the time of humans on earth there have been evil men (and women). The fact is that ALL violent crime is down by nearly 80% since 1980. Crimes against women (such as rapes, etc) are also down by 70%-80% depending on your source.

        If there is such a thing as “toxic masculinity” then there MUST also be such a thing as “toxic femininity'” There are a LOT of evil, manipulative, and horrible women out here in America too. But, they get a free pass. Right? The harm they do to men is insignificant. Right? Most women like you flatly deny women even harm men, period.

        Why do we need to toss 95% of the men under the bus due to the behavior of 5% of men? Is it OK for me to cast 90% of the women in America as lying and manipulative whores because of 10% of the female population are lying and manipulative whores?

      • I’ll quote you:
        “The fact is that ALL violent crime is down by nearly 80% since 1980. Crimes against women (such as rapes, etc) are also down by 70%-80%”

        There is a correlation between gender equality and lower levels of rape and crimes against women. The culture today it’s also more feminist than it was in 1980.

        Of course women do evil things. Of course women do things that harm men, women, and themselves. But I’m curious as to how you think girls and women are socialized in their gender role such that they behave in ways that hurt others or express evil? They are socialized in their gender role in a way that harms themselves more than others, as with a lack of self-confidence and autonomy — learning to be more dependent, to give up more quickly.

        I gave a number of examples of how men are socialized in ways that hurt themselves, other men, and women. How are women socialized in ways that create a pattern of women doing harm to others? I can think of one way: Women are taught to disempower themselves, which can leave them staying in abusive relationships, or leaves women more anxious and depressed. That hurts their children.

        But yes, there is a difference between masculinity and toxic masculinity. Read my bullet points again in the post. I try to point out how men are socialized in masculinity and how sometimes it ends up being toxic and sometimes it doesn’t.

  18. I’m afraid I don’t see the world in terms of “toxic masculinity” and “masculinity”. I see “toxic people” and “people”. “Toxic people” come in all genders, sexual orientations, races, religions, nationality, income categories, and so on.

    • It’s true that no one is perfect and that you can find toxic people in every grouping. At the same time we socialize boys and men in a particular way that lens itself to higher levels than usual of toxicity, which is why men commit most of the rapists, murderers, battery/beatings. It’s not that men are bad. But we don’t raise them well.

      Take another look at examples I gave of how boys are socialized in ways that hurt them and other people. What sort of parallel can you draw to the way women are socialized or LGBT, etc.?

      • “But we don’t raise them well.”

        Think about what you just stated….You just said most boys are not raised well. That is just another way of saying the parents of boys do not raise their boys properly. How dare you say such a thing?

      • Fortunately, despite the problematic way that we commonly raise boys most turn out fine.

        But boys are harmed by the way we raise them:

        Boys, don’t cry. Don’t show your feelings. Boys and men don’t need support — they are always the support. Boys and men are expected to prove that they are tough. Boys and men are under tremendous pressure to be successful and high status in a way that women are not. If a woman raises a family well she is fine. (And most kids do turn out fine.) Women aren’t expected to achieve the same by levels that man feel pressure to achieve. (That hurts women in some ways but relieves pressure too.) We have a much higher expectations for men. Boys and men are expected to prove that they are courageous by doing dangerous things. Boys and men are taught that they are superior and too often put down others as a way of experiencing their superiority, putting down others through things like gang bangs, Beating, battery, harsh words and insults.

        As a result of this common way of raising boys it’s not surprising that men are much more likely than women to commit mass murder, any sort of murder, Commit suicide, rape, gang rape, sexually harass… men are more likely to die from heart attacks, and less likely to go to the doctor… I could go on.

        As you can see both men and women are harmed from all this. That’s why women complain about the way boys are raised. It affects us. It harms us, just as it harms men.

        And pointing out that “masculinity” is different from “toxic masculinity” makes the point that it’s not all men.

        We are all the combination of:
        the culture we live in + social interactions + the personality we are born with.

        As a result you find social patterns and individual differences.

        So social patterns arise based on the culture that raises boys in harmful ways. Hurt people hurt people.

        It’s not that men are bad but as a culture we raise boys in ways that have unhealthy aspects, which can be downright poisonous.

        I’m completely confused as to why you find it offensive to point this out.

  19. Of the four characteristics of masculinity you mentioned above, the one I probably have the biggest problem with myself is the “No sissy stuff” one, as it’d require me to pretty much cut myself off from 50% of the world, which doesn’t sound like much fun at all. Indeed, it’s depressing how often I seem to come across definitions of masculinity that pretty much boil down to great, long lists of things a boy or man *isn’t* allowed to do. How crappy is that?!

    I’ve long been able to appreciate the distinction between healthy masculinity and the toxic variety because I’ve had quite a bit of exposure to both (though thankfully much more of the former kind than the latter!). During the course of my life, I’ve been fortunate to meet many cool guys (some of a fairly traditionally masculine nature, others less so), but also a handful of… *others* that I have far less fond memories of. Mostly these are the creeps who have felt the urge to scream charming things like “Fucking faggot!” at me simply because of the way I’ve been dressed (or sometimes just for having the great misfortune to cross paths with them)[*] – in one memorably unpleasant incident, I actually had a couple chase me in a car (though I thankfully managed to get away from them without injury!). I’m sure it’s not just people like me they’ve targeted (and who would therefore have a problem with them), though. A lot of them, I’m sure, are the sort of yobbos one often encounters on a Friday or Saturday night: the people who go out looking for fights, and who, as I often like to put it, haven’t had a good night unless they’ve ruined someone else’s! If there’d be a way of enforcing a curfew on guys like *that*, I don’t think I (or many other people for that matter) would be too upset!

    *Ironically, the big, tough, manly men in this category have usually screamed their abuse at me from the safety of a pack or a fast-moving car. Yeah, *real* brave and macho, I don’t think!

    • Thanks for sharing your experience with this.

      Boys and men are at a disadvantage on “no sissy staff“ because, since we value masculinity over femininity, boys and men are seen as demeaning themselves when they cross over to the feminine – even though all human beings have a feminine side. In fact, what is considered masculine and feminine varies from culture to culture. But because we value masculinity girls aren’t forbidden from crossing over and doing masculine things. So girls end up benefiting even as they are hurt — by being put down — in that they can express their full human selves much more easily.

  20. Wow, I am shocked with the comments you’ve received so far. It has certainly hit a nerve. Apparently the phrase “toxic masculinity” is triggering people. Obviously what you mean is masculinity that is TOXIC, not masculinity itself. Why do you think people are having such vitriolic responses?

    • Yes, I’m talking about masculinity that is toxic, not masculinity itself.

      Fortunately, most men I know are not filled with toxic masculinity. They are a good men.

      You ask a good question. Why do So many who have commented on my blog not see the distinction? I can only guess that they have internalized so much TM that toxic masculinity seems like masculinity. And so they don’t seem to see how they are hurting others and hurting themselves in ways that are actually completely avoidable. But you would have to do the work to heal.

      • Define toxic masculine behaviour. Good. Now tell me what you call the exact same behaviour when women do it. Now do you see the problem?

      • Read 1-4 again. Women are not expected to be a support for everyone else and not seek help themselves. Women don’t have the same pressure to be a big wheel. If a woman marries and has children she is considered perfectly fine. Women certainly aren’t told not to do sissy stuff Dash femininity is what’s called sissy stuff. And girls feel OK crossing over in doing boy-things So they are limited in the way that boys and men are. And girls aren’t taught to give them hell. That’s why it’s rarely girls or women who are committing rape, beatings, Murder… They are less likely to prove so-called superiority by things like driving recklessly.

        Not all men are toxic. Not all masculinity is toxic. The problem is that we raise boys in ways that make it more likely that they will behave in ways that are hurtful to themselves and others.

    • Just trying to understand

      I don’t think she is shocked by the comments.. I think she may have been shocked if she didn’t receive comments like the ones she is getting.

  21. Just trying to understand

    What would you do if all men had a 9 pm curfew? If toxic masculinity were put under 9 PM curfew, what would you do? It’s the same question just worded differently or the effect would be the same. IMO, all men have displayed some type of toxic masculinity in their life time. So, all men would have a 9 pm curfew. If not all men, how do you apply the curfew? Also, what about trans people? If self-identifying is the only standard used then the question is moot. Most men would self-identify as a women after 9 pm.

    Most businesses would close at 9 pm. Most businesses like strip clubs, bars, and night clubs, would go out of business. Stores that sell alcohol would become even more lucrative. The roads would be safer and the number of alcohol related accident’s would go down for the simple fact that there are less people on the road. The overall economy would suffer for a while but will bounce back. Where there is a will there is a way. People will figure out a way to make money in this situation. Depending on how “curfew” is defined, there would be more house parties and\or lock ins.

    I don’t think it will have much effect on sexual assault. Violent sexual assault, meaning sexual assault involving force by a person not known to the victim, may go down a little depending on the penalties and enforcement of breaking curfew. One could argue that it would put women in more danger because there would be more individual interaction at someone home after 9pm compared to more of a group interaction at a bar or a club. I’m unsure if women would go out more after 9 because of the curfew. Most people go out after 9 to meet people for a romantic relationship.
    I’m not saying that romantic relationships is the only reason why people go out. I’m saying most people will go out less if they know there is no possibility of a romantic relationship.

    I have been talking about the possible effects of a 9pm curfew and I haven’t answered your question, what would I do. I really don’t know what I would do. The idea is so far-fetched I know it could never happen or there would be so many loopholes it would only be symbolic.

    • Why do you think that masculinity and toxic masculinity are the same thing?

      They are not. I know plenty of men who are not filled with toxic masculinity. Thankfully! In fact I would say that most men are good men.

      And I’m not sure how cis or trans is relevant. Either can take on toxic masculinity, or not.

      • Just trying to understand

        “Why do you think that masculinity and toxic masculinity are the same thing?” They are the same thing because toxic masculinity is subjective at best. Would you call a man who can’t read and won’t ask anyone for help because he is ashamed of being illiterate, a good man or a man full of toxic masculinity or someplace in between? Would he be subject to the 9pm curfew?

        I agree, most men are good but that doesn’t mean they don’t display some form of toxic masculinity.

      • Well I don’t think all men, or all women, are perfect. But I don’t think that all men have toxic masculinity in them.

      • Just trying to understand

        “But I don’t think that all men have toxic masculinity in them.”
        This may be true but I’m confident that most of those good men you talk about are guilty of at least one of your four examples in some way or another.

      • Since all men are socialized with those four points I’m sure that all men have some degree of being, or yearning to be, a sturdy oak, A big wheel, avoid sissy stuff, and give them hell. But not all men are going to reach toxic levels. A lot of men will work to be a big wheel but not hurt people in the process, like beat themselves up, or beat others up, if they don’t achieve it. Most men will avoid sissy stuff but there are more and less toxic ways of doing that. If you avoid wearing pink but allow yourself some emotion – there is a continuum to these things – you won’t necessarily be toxic.

  22. Sigh…

    “Toxicity arises when men behave in ways that hurt others because of the way we socially construct masculinity.”

    I find it utterly absurd that women should have ANY say on what is deemed “good” masculinity. This whole idea of “toxic masculinity” is a farce created by feminism to subjugate men.

    What about toxic femininity? Women certainly do engage in behavior that harm others including many men. Where are your critiques of female sinister and unhealthful behavior? Oh but it is always the men. Right? It is patriarchy. Right?

    There is nothing you or other women can say that will convince me or many many other men that this whole “toxic masculinity” nonsense is merely an attempt to subjugate men. It is an attempt to control our behavior based on women’s terms. I say to hell with that!! Yet these same women scream “misogynist” to any man who dares to critique the bad behavior of women. But, you want equality. Right? I scoff at the notion.

    What is good for the goose is good for the gander. But, what is BAD for the goose is also BAD for the gander. That is real equality. Not this one sided made up garbage called “toxic masculinity.”

    • Many women and men alike have been harmed by toxic Masculinity, as I described in the post. When you have been harmed you have every right to try to change things.

      Fortunately, most men are not toxic.

      And see what I said to Fred.

  23. It’s amazing how the radical left feels free to persecute masculinity behind the thinly veiled excuse “oh, we don’t mean all men”. Would these same people be comfortable discussing toxic femininity, toxic homosexuality, toxic transexuality, or toxic blackness on the basis that “oh, we don’t mean all women, gays, transexuals or blacks, only the toxic part of those identities”, while going on to pigeon hole the state of being female, gay, transexual or black into 4 characteristics. “Oh, here are the 4 characteristics of being black, only -some- of which are actually toxic, so rest easy, we are not the bigots we appear to be”.

    Of course men aren’t committing all the assaults, only a disproportionately high percentage of the assaults, leading you to casually throw out your male curfew thought experiment. How do you feel about a homosexual curfew thought experiment since a disproportionate percentage of the paedophilia crimes are by homosexuals? (by a ratio of 11:1). Is that still an amusing little thought experiment, pray tell? Or what if we amuse ourselves thinking about a black male curfew, since they are about 8x as likely as the average white man to commit a crime?

    • I’m wondering why you don’t want to see the difference between men and toxic masculinity. They are not the same thing. Men are also harmed by toxic masculinity. It has to do with the ways some men harm other people because of the way masculinity is socially constructed, in the ways I described. Those parts that some men hang onto. In fact I would say that your comments are often examples. You must be hurt in some way and deal with it by lashing out at Others instead of seeking help from Someone who could support you.

      If you think there is such a thing as toxic femininity or toxic blackness or toxic LGBT etc, I’m curious as to what that would be. How it manifest? How would each of these identities be constructed such that they cause harm?

      • What might toxic blackness look like? Well do you think maybe there is negative stuff in black culture maybe? Black Gangsta culture? Black Gang culture? Black rap culture? Black single mother culture? Now how would it look like in your faculty if you starting running a class on “toxic blackness”? You’d be tossed out on your ear right? You’d be a pariah. So why should you get a free pass on being a bigot against men?

      • You say there are problems in black culture but the source isn’t how black people are socialized so much as poverty. Poverty meets toxic masculinity:

        Working class white families are seeing the same family break down, now that the white working class is feeling squeezed financially and increasingly falling out of the middle class (due to an enormous redistribution of wealth from the middle class to the top 1%). Some white working-class people even talk about how their communities are beginning to resemble impoverished black communities. That’s because financial stress lies behind both.

        The toxicity of what you call black culture is the toxicity you find in gang culture, which you commonly find among young men who are impoverished, regardless of race. Again, poverty lies behind this. Toxic masculinity also lies behind this. It’s the boys, not the girls, who are drawn to gangs. Young men are taught that they are supposed to be powerful. When they find themselves at the bottom of the hierarchy they act out and try to gain a sense of power by fighting with other gangs, tagging property as theirs, criminal activity, etc. and you find us in every ethnicity.

  24. to put a curfew on men would be a very dangerous thing to do because not all men commit rapes and there are women who have committed sex crimes and men can be victims too and there are men who are out at night who are not that way inclined and who would be seeking damages if they were wrongly accused of crimes they never committed. after the rape and murder of up and coming comedian Eurydice Dixon, 22 there was talk of women never walking home alone at night but if somebody wants to walk alone at night it should be their choice they shouldn’t be dictated to about whether they should walk in pairs or groups because if a rapist is going to attack one person they will most often attack all in a group as has happened and to think that all men are toxic is wrong because there are some people who wouldn’t realize what they’re doing is toxic people are always too quick to judge and women are very good liars at making up rape stories because to me if somebody disclosed that to me I’d most likely say they were lying and would call for a lie detector test.

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