The Rules vs The Game

article-new_ehow_images_a06_0s_0v_standard-game-checkers-rules-1.1-800x800The Rules and The Game are manuals created to teach men and women how to attract the opposite sex. What do they tell us about the war between the sexes in this new millennium? For in these manuals, it is war.

The Game

The Game was written in 2005 by Neil Strauss after his book editor asked him to investigate the community of pickup artists. After a few workshops this self-described “chick repellant” found that the techniques worked surprisingly well for a “pick up” — but not for relationships. And, as it turns out, the game works best for misogynistic men, but only works to attract women who are misogynistic, themselves.

Here are some rules of The Game:

  • Approach a woman within three seconds of seeing her so you won’t lose your nerve
  • Ask something benign like “What’s your sign?” or “What’s your type?”
  • Act somewhat disinterested
  • Briefly disqualify yourself from being a potential suitor
  • Ignore the girl you want and flirt with one of her friends instead
  • Ogle other women
  • Subtly insult her to lower her self-worth
  • Isolate “the target” from her friends

Clearly, these rules are all about bedding women by means of controlling them and weakening their self-esteem, while inflating the confidence of men.

The Rules

The Rules were written to aid women in getting a man to commit. Published in 1995, they were updated in 2002 to reflect single life in a high-tech culture.

Here are a few rules:

  • Let him take the lead
  • Don’t talk to a man first and don’t ask him to dance
  • Don’t call him and rarely return his calls
  • Always end a date first
  • Don’t see him more than once or twice a week
  • Don’t talk very much on the first date
  • Break up with him if he doesn’t buy you a romantic gift for your birthday or Valentine’s Day
  • Don’t open up too fast
  • Be sexy

In sum, The Rules urge women to manipulate men by playing hard to get. In an ironic twist women are advised to make men the leader even while creating a sense of female independence. (Even keeping her mouth shut works to create a sense of “man as leader” as some research finds that when women talk more than one third of the time they are seen as honing in on men’s space.)

On the bright side, women are urged to get on with their lives instead of waiting around for “him.”

What The Rules/The Game have in common

Both manuals advise game-playing, so we have not evolved much — or many of us have not.

Both amass power to “their side” by means of disinterest – which may work since whomever cares least has more power.

The Rules advises a traditional source of power for those who lack it: manipulation, controlling men without their knowing. Interestingly, The Game urges this same feminine technique for men, who do not have direct control over women’s minds and bodies.

And we find sexism surviving in both books.

War of the sexes 

Not surprisingly, the books also differ in a way that reflects traditional gender norms. The goal of The Game is to bed women while the goal of The Rules is to snag men. The stereotypes live on.

My students are surprised that The Rules weren’t written in the middle of the last century. But The Game’s even more recent publication comes as no shock. I guess we are more puzzled by women who agree to sexism, whereas no one is surprised that some men continue to support it.

Related Posts 
Using Insults to Pick Up Women
Are Men More Likely to Separate Love & Sex?
Sources of Power in Relationships

About BroadBlogs

I have a Ph.D. from UCLA in sociology (emphasis: gender, social psych). I currently teach sociology and women's studies at Foothill College in Los Altos Hills, CA. I have also lectured at San Jose State. And I have blogged for Feminispire, Ms. Magazine, The Good Men Project and Daily Kos. Also been picked up by The Alternet.

Posted on September 8, 2020, in relationships, sex and sexuality, sexism and tagged , , . Bookmark the permalink. 46 Comments.

  1. Interesting to see that these two “advice” type books are still considered acceptable and prime reading material for men and women. I am not surprised, however, as mass media, films, and the digital realms all push for those in the dating scene to present a fraudulent version of themselves. Aside from dating apps like Tinder, I was reminded of an early 2000s film, How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days. From what I can recall, it was pointedly sexist and manipulative for both of the main characters, very similar to the bullet points illustrated above. Seems to be almost unfathomable that women would read and follow the directions of self proclaimed love guru from The Rules, and use those tips to find a life long, committed partner? Very shallow on that end and for the men reading The Game. Seems to be classic, misogynistic garbage which aims to cheapen and distort the realities of love and trust between two people. I believe that instead of demeaning either partner with a forced set of dating guidelines, the authors (and sexist believers ) should encourage people to be themselves.

  2. I find both The Game and The Rules to be very interesting and reflects onto how men and women sometimes perceive dating and the best way to attract the opposite sex. I found it very amusing how both The Game and The Rules told men and women respectively that playing hard to get was an attractive quality. I feel like personally and everyone else I know do not like when they are pursuing someone and they are standoffish or seem not interested.

  3. As an attractive young person I can say I have never once heard of “the Rules” or “The Game” I suppose I’ve heard very similar dating advice from older folks like my older coworkers and also on TV. Both of these things sound so cheesy and made up! Do people actually follow this advice? Does it actually work? It’s interesting that both of these tactics use subtle manipulation instead of just being a normal person. I agree with your students that is sounds like outdated advice. I feel sorry for the people who actually follow this rules. I can’t imagine a woman would succeed in “snagging” a man long term if she wasn’t allowed to be herself and I can’t picture a man being anything but laughed at with those sort of lines. I wonder what it would be like if we reversed it, if women played the game and men followed the rules?

  4. I was in complete shock when reading the rules for both sides. The Game’s rules were unbelievable, how to “subtly insult her to lower her self-worth”, I don’t understand how a woman would even let a man do that to them. That’s very insulting because I wouldn’t want my self-worth to be insulted just because a guy might want me. These rules happen all the time without people realizing they’re having it be done to them or doing it. There’s no way how all the rules, when applied, would actually make a guy confident. They have no idea what they’re doing to someone emotionally.

    As for The Rules, I couldn’t take the list of rules seriously because, “don’t open up too fast”, “Be sexy”; like how would they really expect someone to do both? That’s like having a red and green light at the same time, what should the car do? If a women were to follow the list of rules, why would she even torture herself to go through all of that.

  5. In the Rule vs The game, the game (2005) influences many people to gain courage to speak to women. The war between sexes can be a social game to be able to find new ways to attract others. New millennium is being taught The game,2005 by Neil Strauss at community workshops (I remember because my friend bought the book) . The funny thing is that the book was working not just to hook up with women but to develop confidence as a shy individual. “The rule” is similar to “The game” that teaches people how to attract others by different gender norms. It’s interesting knowing that The rule was written in 1995.

  6. The Rules and The Game are two entirely new concepts to me; when I first read this blog post I thought it was satire. But the more I read into it, the more it shocked me that people actually think this way. It honestly seems kind of offensive that men are told to act disinterested and a girl will magically fall to their hands, but we see this all the time with “f-boys” in popular culture. Even as a child, girls were told that if a boy was being mean to you, it was because he liked you. Conversely, women are expected to let the boy control the relationship; historically women are taught to ‘sit and look pretty’. I can’t believe this was written in the early 2000s, it’s just outrageous. In my perspective, acting disinterested and refusing to open up doesn’t seem like a great way to start a committed relationship. How are we supposed to form genuine, heartwarming connections with other people when this is the advice we are given?

  7. Alexandra Wilson

    I have seen and known men and women who do this because this how generations are raised to act towards individuals they find attractive. I do not like any parts of The Game or The Rules because if you are attracted to someone, you should be polite to them and show interest and attraction towards them, not ignoring them and acting rude or flirting with their friends. Go up to them and introduce yourself like a normal and mature person would do and start a conversation and see where that goes from there. Never ignore the person you are interested in to get their attention because it could cause that person to move on to someone who will show interest in them.

  8. When reading the article about the rules of the game it talks about what to do or not to do when both men and women want to get the attention of someone they have a fond liking toward. It’s kind of interesting to read because there are people who probably followed these rules. I think that any female or male who wanna impress themselves with someone they like, they shouldn’t worry too much and just be themselves and be honest.

  9. In the Rules VS The Games, the rules advises a traditional resource of power for those who lack it: manipulation, controlling men without their knowing. Interestingly, the game urges this same femine technique for men, who do not have direct control over women’s minds and bodies.

    Even though these two books were written by two different authors who likely have no affiliation with each other, the two titles themselves convey the same view of men’s and women’s roles in relationships. Men are expected to play “games” and not take relationships seriously, whereas women are meant to follow rigid “rules” and are looking for commitment.

  10. I found it very interesting reading this blog. I also would have assumed before reading that the book only worked on misogynistic & women. I also believe that the reason why the book The Game only works for pick-ups is because it is a manual on how to pick-up only the misogynistic type. This manual is by no stretch of the imagination a guide to build and keep a lasting relationship. It was designed for those who are not interested in a relationship.
    It is interesting how both of these books have the similarity that they are both founded on “game-playing”. If I, or my significant other were to have our relationship established by playing one of these games, I would almost feel that the relationship was built on a lie, as the person following the manual was not sincere or honest about who they are. I also believe that these types of games, whether it be from The Rules or The Game, would only work on a certain type of individual.

  11. The Rule vs The Game discusses men and women views on finding a relationship. Both books were written by two different authors in the 2000’s. I have never read the books but with a little detail from both it leads to the creation of sexism. The way that a man goes up to a woman by following “The Game” steps degrades women by making them feel insecure. Times have changed and there are different ways to be able to grab a woman’s attention. I think by being yourself it shows women who you are and leaves a better sense who you truly are. “The Rule” applies to women to be able to get a man to commit to them. I don’t know if that has changed over time but I think it is a way to see if a man is going to commit to them so they don’t waste their time and find someone who can commit. People should just be straightforward with how they feel or start a conversation to get to know on

  12. One of the rules mentioned in “The Game” written by Neil Strauss is to “Subtly insult her to lower her self-worth.” I found this tactic interesting as it is my belief that if the roles were reversed, advise to a woman may be, “do not insult him as he may be turned off because you lowered his self-worth.” This is pure speculation, but I have heard this before. “She belittles me in public” or “she talks down to me.” We are made to believe that we must lift men on to a pedestal and not make them feel like less of a man, yet this modern-day pick-up manual advises men to chip away at the confidence of a woman, all in order to close the sexual deal. That is all it is, a sexual deal. There is nothing noteworthy for a long-term relationship.

  13. The part that caught me off guard was “Subtly insult her to lower her self-worth”. WOAH, this still happens? Personally, I have never been out in an environment like that in order to meet people. So, I have not yet experience this, but that is harsh. No wonder dating is so difficult, it is just a game. Some people are willing to get to know a person and having that time to really know them. Yet, on the other side they’re people who are just looking for sex. Sadly, even though that was written almost two decades ago many people still use the same technique to “flirt”, and it should not be used any longer. Here is also why many people feel so discourage and lack that self confidence, because of how emotionally draining this whole dating thing is. Getting as pretty or handsome as possible to try to meet someone, and to end up coming home to feeling unwanted, no thank you.

  14. I think it’s very telling that, even though these two books were written by two different authors who likely have no affiliation with each other, the two titles themselves convey the same misogynist view of men’s and women’s roles in relationships. Men are expected to play “games” and not take relationships seriously, whereas women are meant to follow rigid “rules” and are usually the partner in the relationship looking for commitment.

    Also, although “The Game” was written in 2005, I think that the overall strategies described by the pickup artists have still not changed in 2020. I’ve definitely heard YouTubers and comedians in the 2010s (and 2020s!) describe pick-up strategies similar to one of the pieces in advice in The Game, “Subtly insult her to lower her self-worth,” except now it’s been rebranded as “negging.” It’s sad to see that misogyny in dating is still very much alive.

    I honestly think that books such as “The Game” and “The Rules” only contribute more to sexism in dating; books such as these are published, so (straight) men and women are inclined to follow the advice written in them, because if the advice was bad, how would the book have gotten published in the first place? And because other people who haven’t bought the book see the advice in the books played out in real life, they are inclined to believe that acting like this is the norm in dating. It’s a self-perpetuating cycle of sexism.

    • You make an interesting observation, “even though these two books were written by two different authors who likely have no affiliation with each other, the two titles themselves convey the same misogynist view of men’s and women’s roles in relationships. Men are expected to play “games” and not take relationships seriously, whereas women are meant to follow rigid “rules” and are usually the partner in the relationship looking for commitment.”

      Thank you.

  15. The Rules vs The Game are discussing men and women. I never heard and read this book but I think men and women are attracted to each other, it’s a natural behavior. Also, these rules are all about bedding women by means of controlling them and weakening their self-esteem, while inflating the confidence of men, and the rules were written to aid women in getting a man to commit.

    In my opinion, men commit crimes, women induce men to commit crimes. These conditions have been repeated . Like this book said, On the bright side, women are urged to get on with their lives instead of waiting around for “him.” In addition, we find sexism surviving in both books. They are influenced by social media, younger people, teenagers and little boys think about sexual associations and relationships.
    I think women should change their sex behavior and don’t play games with men.

  16. From my own experience, the idea that there are rules or games that can be played when it comes to relationships between men and women are still very present. As I read this article I had many thoughts coming to my mind and basically all of them were around the frustration of how much stereotypes are still very strong in our society. Affirming that certain rules will work when dealing with a partner, regardless of the gender, is to completely ignore the particularities of each person, the emotions, the cultural obstacles, and even the complexity of what it means for one to be a man or to be a woman. Is to completely ignore the beauty of meeting a significant other and minimizing the experience and the process in a few rules that only enforce stereotypes. I personally do not share these beliefs and I do not believe on neither of those approaches. In fact, I believe that the idea of playing games or following rules only creates a fake situation of control.

  17. This is a really interesting topic. It fascinates me that in order for a man and woman to “attract” or “impress” the opposite sex, there are demeaning things like this that some people actually follow. A guy must be degrading in a sense and a woman must play hard to get. However, what I did find even more interesting and just adds to the stigma that men just want sex was one of the differences between “The Rules” and “The Game”. The goal for “The Game” was to get a woman in bed with a man while the goal of “The Rules” is to pick up men. Now days, this can be translated to modern day dating. Those who are in a new relationship do not want to come off too strong or clingy. Some play hard to get or don’t respond to quickly to keep the other person interested. This totally does not make sense to me as I am super straight forward with how I feel and appreciate when others do the same!

  18. It is crazy to think that the ideas in these books have been relevant since the start of a little boy or girl liking the opposite sex. Of course the ideas in the books like, “Be sexy,” or “Subtly insult her,” won’t be said/done using these exact words, but examples of these rules or games can be seen since crushing on someone in Elementary school. For example, for as long as I could remember adults would always justify a boy being mean to a girl by saying, “Oh he just has a crush on you, that’s why he’s teasing you or being mean.” Girls would also get told to “dress cute, don’t dress like a tomboy,” etc. So since Elementary school boys and girls have been taught these Games and Rules to go by in order to obtain a relationship with the opposite sex.

    Now more than ever though, we see these Games and Rules being put into practice more and more by teenagers and young adults. With the influence of social media, a lot of teenagers/young adults are forced to think a certain way about sex and relationships. Girls as young as 11 think they have to “Be sexy” at all times or dress a certain way because youtubers dress that way or famous tik tokers do it to “get all the boys”. Boys on the other hand, are influenced to sleep with as many girls as possible to become “popular” or to be a ladies man, and being emotional is definitely out of the question. Although being sexually active is more common for both sexes nowadays, these sets of Rules and Games are still very present in society.

  19. The Game and The Rules are two concepts I have seen before. Playing games to keep a man or to bed a woman, either way I find it quit exhausting and very frustrating. There are two movies I can think of that really remind me of this. The first is called “Two Can Play That Game”, this movie is about a woman giving her girlfriends advice on how to make their men commit. They follow a set of rules that span out to a week and within that time frame their men are supposed to beg for them back and ask for forgiveness. The rules always seemed excessive to me, I mean if a man does not want to commit and he is not showing any sort of initiative in moving forward with the relationship then why bother staying with him? Is it because the women feel like they cannot do better than him or maybe she has just been with him for so long that she does not want to put herself out there again?

    The second movie is “Think Like a Man”, this movie is about a group of male friends in different relationship statuses and each one starts to play some sort of game to get with these women. In vice versa, the women find this book that gives them an insight into the man’s playbook. They try to use it against the men to make them into the men they envisioned themselves with. As you might have guessed it does not go over so well and each couple splits for a period. Three of the men have revelations and go back to their women begging for forgiveness, while one of the women goes to the man and asks him to forgive her. In the end all they needed to do was to have a serious and honest conversation with each other and let each other know how each is feeling. Instead they played games, but I guess in they grew and learned from their individual situations and each couple got closer to one another.

    After all that’s been said, I would just like the games to stop and be honest about your intentions, whether it be for sex, a long term relationship, friendship that could lead to a relationship, or just a close friendship. Eventually someone will be out there that will give you what you want without the games and time and effort being wasted.

  20. I sometimes wondered what the current state of this land was. Reading this article sort of reminded me of gender relationships in gradeschool, but blown decades out of proportion. It makes me think that there is a miscommunication and mistrust between people that needs to be fixed. I definitely think atleast the men’s side’s text should be a guideline for younger people to adhere to. I think it’s a sign that we need to focus on proper social education for kids. I feel like I am in the halfway generation between the generation that wrote these books and the youth of this era. Personally I think I am leaning toward the younger side because I do not share these beliefs. Honestly I think one of the greatest issues in today’s world is bullying, regardless of age. I think we as society are coming to a closing of an old mindset that is fading, of sexism and classism, I just hope to see it end.

  21. Hi there! It’s been a long time. I hope you are well.

    This is quite interesting. While I am aware of these two books, I have not read either book.

    I prefer to use the direct approach. I simply approach a woman and say something along the lines, “I find you very attractive. I would like to get to know you romantically. I have no interest in any kind of platonic friendship…” If she is interested, she will let me know. If not, she will also let me know. This takes “The Game” out of it. I want to be rejected right away.

    I think this is best because it will bypass all the nonsense. Also, I don’t have to waste time on wining and dining etc. It gets rid of all the time wasters. I am stating upfront, straightforwardly, and honestly my desires and intentions. “Best practices” in my opinion.

    Your thoughts?

    Getting ready for the Biden-Trump debate tonight.


    • Good to hear from you Huggy! I was wondering if you would ever show up again.

      If your strategy works for you it seems like a good idea. No games. Like if you were doing a dating site obviously everyone is more likely to be interested in the same goal and being direct helps to not waste time or play games. Another possible strategy would be to get to know someone as a friend (join a group where you are likely to find someone whose interested in your interests — hiking, politics, etc)
      and when you think you have enough in common and that your personalities are a good match move on from there. Just because some women want to get to know someone before they jump in.

      What did you think about the debate — or whatever that was? Are you still a fan of Trump?

      I would have liked to have heard an actual debate where you can get a sense of both sides. Of course I’m voting for Biden but the undecideds could have used some clarity. My theory is that Trump doesn’t think he has answers that will be helpful so he’s just trying to talk and not have to give his thoughts on anything while at the same time trying to intimidate Biden. Under the circumstances I thought Biden came out pretty well. And I’m hoping I won’t have to ever sit through anything like that again. One of my friends turned off the sound and put on closed captioning. Maybe that’s an option if the networks can’t find a way to create an actual debate.

      Your thoughts?

      • Well the “debate” was a big disappointment. I thought the President could have done a much better job of making his case without being overbearing. I am still a solid Trump voter and supporter.

        Trump is in a great position. The RCP composite poll average show Biden with only a 6 point lead now. The battleground state RCP average is now down to 3 points. It’s a statistical dead heat! Think about it…the President has been impeached by the House, COVID 19, the economy and he is still in this. WOW!!!

        Trump is going to get a larger share of the Black vote. Maybe from 8% to say 12%-15%. Mostly Black men like myself. But, I think he will get a much larger share of the Hispanic vote. I am finding a lot of White Independents are leaning to Trump because of BLM and the violence. A lot of people (White, Hispanic, and immigrants) have lost their business due to Democrat politicians refusing to crack down on the violence. The polls are not showing this in my opinion.

        I am very confident Trump will be reelected. While I don’t like much of his personality, I fully support most of his policies (he is weak on healthcare).

        I just think the Dems leaders have so much vitriol for Trump and large swaths of America that it has driven them to just outlandish policies and behavior. Trump derangement syndrome is very real!!! Average Americans are just put off by it. Calling people racist and attacking them because they hold a different view is just irrational and un American behavior.

        But, as Trump often likes to say, “we will see what happens.”

        Btw, I was in Santa Ana and Irvine in April. Very nice vacation. The weather was terrific. People are friendly.

      • Yeah, California has great weather. Air quality has been pretty horrid lately though, which is one of the reasons I think it’s very important to do something about climate change. I’ve lived in California pretty much my whole life and we have never had fires like we’ve had in the last three years. Scientist predicted this but the problem is coming sooner than they expected. And it’s one of the reasons I very much want Biden to win.

        And yes, people are friendly here. I know people who moved here from the East Coast and they’re surprised how friendly people are here.

        Believe it or not I hope that Trump recovers because I feel like the election is more predictable if he stays alive through the election. After that, he is so nonchalant about the lives of other people that I’m not real strong on wanting him to recover. He will probably encourage violence in the streets that will cost lives. And not do anything about Covid.

        The fact that he is doing so well despite all of the problems of his administration shows how polarized the country has become which I think is sad. I think it makes peoples brains turn off.

        You don’t like people calling him racist but at the same time he will not condemn white supremacists. So what is that? And how do you feel about his failure to condemn white supremacists? The white supremacists seem to think he’s one of them. And as far as I can tell they have a good reason to think so. I mean anyone who says they are good people on both sides — both Nazis and anti-Nazis!

        In addition to my concerns about climate change I am also voting for Biden because he’s better on healthcare, women’s rights, he clearly is not a racist. I think he will be better for the economy too. Since the 1980s we have seen a huge redistribution of wealth from the middle-class to the top, largely from firing workers and Replacing them with automation (the biggest cause of job loss), offshoring work and union busting.

        Biden would roll back the 2017 tax cuts for billionaires to pay for infrastructure and education — outlays aimed at strengthening the economy in the long run, as well as boosting it over the next few years.
        When Moody’s ran this program through their model, it concluded that by the end of 2024, real gross domestic product would be 4.5 percent higher than under a continuation of Trump’s policies, translating into an additional 7 million jobs. Goldman Sach’s estimates are similar: a 3.7 percent gain in G.D.P.

        People are more likely to spend money and boost sales and profits if they have money in their pockets. Bringing money back down from the wealthy into the pockets of average Americans would be very helpful for the economy.

        I also worry about our democracy. Trump keeps disobeying every rule and you have to have rules for democracy. He also tries to create a sense that there is no truth but you need a sense of truth to Check politicians. He wants to be president for life and be worshiped like the North Korean president is. If you look at his record the only major legislation he did was tax cuts for billionaires which, 83% goes to the top 1% and he wants to pay for that by cutting Social Security and Medicare. Check his budget! So I worry that it could be the end of American democracy and then we become a plutocracy that just serves the interests of the rich.

        Would you be upset if Biden won? I talked to another Trump fan who said it wouldn’t bother him that much so I was wondering.

  22. I’ve been seeing this sort of literature since well back into the last century, and it must have always existed in some form or another. Since Ovid, at least.

    Very likely, it says more about the authors than about their subjects. Pickup artists and the “Rules” authors are both cashing in on people’s feelings of failure and inadequacy, while congratulating themselves on their own success and following old competitive habits.

    The pickup artists encourage other men to act like jerks, while using their own techniques for approaching women that they would never tell to the competition.

    The “Rules” authors are practicing old-fashioned slut-shaming: telling women not to “give it up” too easily or act too interested because that would ruin the game for the authors, along with other women.

    It’s the same old competition for mates under the guise of giving advice. Even if they’ve “won” the game, they can’t stop playing it.

  23. I suspect that some women have poor social skills so they rely on their bodies. But that doesn’t tend to lead to healthy relationships. Some men have poor social skills too.

    Yep: “The charm, humor, is not genuine, it’s manufactored and tailored to attract women.” I think men don’t have to make the conversation fun so much as real. Depending on what the guy wants. If he wants a strong relationship real is better. Just getting to know who both of you are.”

    Well I think the poor social skills from women sticks around longer because women don’t feel the effects as much to change like men. A pretty girl with social skills will still get dates right? Still get attention, and probably not told “you’re not doing this right, and all this stuff”. If a guy has poor social skills, he’s not getting laid or having a very hard time getting laid. So the onus is much more put on guy’s to fix that issue or get better, which unfortunately is why some turn to PUAS instead of just talking to friends who have strong social skills and just gain confidence and such. Yeah it’s good to be real, but you can be charming and real. Man thank god I got both 😉 lol. You said depending on what guy’s want.

    The problem is since a lot of guys want sex, who doesn’t want sex if you got a strong libido. They feel the pressure to be entertaining at like a bar, party or club or else the girl will lose interest. But the problem with that is guy’s feel so much pressure that they just don’t approach, and then it will never work vs just trying and seeing how it goes. I shouldn’t have over though it was my best friend the former womanizer, said you don’t have to do that but just say hi my name is “, and ask their name and ask questions. I can small talk, I just don’t like it because it feels boring to me, but I’ve realized I assume things sometimes too much. He said you don’t want to try to be too charming because girls will be wary if a guy tries to be too smooth and that makes sense to me, because that can def send of alarms of a guy sounding like a player. And The ultimate thing I think women if its bars, party, coffee shop, idc is a guy that genuinely is trying to get to know them and listen and then the funny, witty stuff can go.

    But it’s easy for me to get ahead of myself. It;s weird this year has been shit, I was already making strides, but the ironic thing is this year with covid and how mentally exhausting it’s been. It like made me compare things that I’d care to it and then not care anymore or be bothered. So it’s convoluted but less anxiety of me taking chances, I guess because as bad as I might feel from taking the chance. It doesn’t compare to the shit show this year has been. So it helps me rationalize the fear I had to where it’s not a big deal in comparison. Oh, I tried to talk to a girl and she was mean…that sucks, but that doesn’t compare to how I feel about this year, so meh, no big deal. I might not be coming from the most positive place but it’s helped me. I frankly don’t give a fuck anymore ( in the good way). I embarrass myself. whatever. I do have some care, but I’m just over caring about that. Covid has made me mentally exhausted to where my pride used to get in the way of taking chances, but such things are less likely to ruin my day now. Now if things got back to normal I could take advantage of this evolved confidence.

    • Some people are taking this time to just get a break. I have a couple of friends who wanted to have relationships but now they don’t have to feel bad about not making any effort. For people who are anxious to get back in the game I guess we’ll have to wait about another year before it’s safe. Maybe you can find a way to make the most of it? This rest?

      But it is OK to be aware of your feelings and not try to rid your self of authentic feelings. It’s important to feel what you feel.

      I think that you are right that men have more pressure to be entertaining since our society has decided that they are the ones who are expected to take the initiative. Obviously, if we had gender equality that wouldn’t be the case and the burden would be equally shared.

      • Well I don’t want to revert back to old feelings, because that what got me in the rut in the first place. I cared too much about things and it stopped me from trying and dealing with rejection. I never knew why it was hard for me. It’s not even rejection, but I think the possibility of people being rude, mean or assholes to me even if not doing anything wrong. It wasn’t consciously on my mind so I didn’t even realize it, but now that I do and feel differently about things. I shouldn’t have let that bother me though and just whatever. I guess this stuff carried over where I was irritated so I like things not upsetting me so I can cope with things as I stew a lot about my past, which I shouldn’t but have. But I’m over it. That’s why my buddy didn’t have problem getting dates. He just didn’t care (in the good way). A girl is a complete snob to him, he’d just shrug his shoulder and eh that’s her loss. Some may say that’s rejection, but it is and isn’t. Plenty of rejections can just be disinterest in talking whereas some people can just be rude or give you the stink eye, like how dare you even bother to say hi. But like I said making a fool of himself, someone being rude, none of that stuff fazed him.

        I’ve taken a break from dating or not really tried because I don’t want to be a jerk and feel it’s just an iffy time. For connection, you want to be able to feel natural being close to someone. It can be quite the mood breaker, being conscious of being distant when on a date and just feels like a hassle to me. I hate it, but I rather wait it out until things are more back to normal. I’m hoping it’s not a year, I’m not getting any younger and would like to get things going to set myself up or so I can transition to a relationship. My buddy tells me to leave the past behind and stop the regrets, so I’m trying to and do something this year. But thats the problem, I didn’t get to do that because of covid. Once effective treatments come hopefully more things can open up as I wanted to try somethings which could be fun. My struggle has been some of my friends have kids but I still want to do things, so I need to have a social circle built up again. I was trying to do a co ed sports league. They say find hobbies you like, and I’ve always been into sports, but my work schedule got in the way last year but this year it’s more free. But while thee is a league they have restrictions. But I’m trying to do one just to play something and maybe more like going out with teammates and socializing stuff can happen next year. But I’m trying to join so to be a familiar face as people are probably regulars so it can be hard getting picked up if you’re new and others pick up people they already know. Yeah guy’s have to entertain, but I hope I don’t have to like my friend said because talking to a girl I don’t know at the bar is stressful if I feel I have to same something witty on the spot.

      • sorry about all this writing, I just have a lot to say about this. It’s ironic too, since I’m actually very funny and witty. I’m just very genuine meaning I can’t fake stuff. The witty stuff isn’t manufactored, it comes from my convo with someone and my mind catching something to where I think of a witty response to what someone said and it’s funny. I have no problem doing a lot of that when talking. But I don’t have to even know or be comfortable with the person. I hear that used for people who are introverts or something. But I can be around people I don’t know and talk to them find and be more talkative than others. I think it’s like the environment where there’s just natural stuff to talk about because you’re in a mutual thing together. Like a classroom or work, or sports, etc. It’s not hard for me to be quite talkative to girls I don’t know and break the ice and just having everyone around me laughing and just working the room. I

        ‘m like that at work. Bars are hard for me to just walk up to a group of girls I don’t know and it’s funny because people from work would probably never guess have some social anxiety because I seem so extroverted, and it’s becasue I do have a very outgoing, personable personality. I have a playful, fun, personality so I light up the room. I like bring the energy socially because of my funny quips. I don’t try to be funny, as insecure people can try to do so for attention. It just comes naturally from being a playful, smartass goofball. I don’t know how I’m going to make the most of it, but I hope things get better early next year. I don’t trust a fast vaccine but I do believe treatments or some are promising and will probably be done with trials by end of this year and then even if vaccine doesn’t come at end of year, Monoclonal antibodies are going well and could be close either end of this year or january or something like that. Those would be game changers before the vaccine or a great bridge and help restrictions lifted and even if not perfectly normal, much more normal with people able to do stuff and feel comfortable dating again and just living life damn it,

        Then maybe more normalcy with the vaccine, and would be a good variation of treatments for people. Not everybody will want a vaccine so treatments are important, Not everybody wants a treatment so vaccines are important. And antibodies for others. This shit is really tough tho, it’s one thing for a person to choose sexual abstinence, it’s very annoying when the world has basically put a government mandated sexual abstinence because of a pandemic, which I still believe was preventable if our ahole president didn’t believe it was a hoax and china wasn’t covering up the real big numbers they had that they lied about. I do believe other countries would have shut down flights sooner and maybe not had cased if they knew china had millions of cases vs 80,000 which that number seemed to peak at same number for months. That seems odd to me. I feel china new they had much much much more than they reported.

      • Well they will probably have a vaccine early next year and since you are an essential worker you will probably be one of the first to get one, if you were OK with vaccinations.

        I know people tend to take it personally when someone is rude to them but when people are rude it’s about them and not you. I know that’s hard to remember. But like your buddy who hits on women all the time and doesn’t mind rejection, well, that’s the main factor that determines how often men get laid.

        If you do activities you are interested in that have a mix of men and women it’s a good way to meet people in a natural way. Particularly helpful if you want more than just to get laid.

  24. Oh dear, I was hoping that things might have changed.

  25. Sorry to see that this drivel was actually written in the 21st century. You can only imagine some of the awkward scenes that would have come from people reading this and taking it seriously.

  26. “Don’t talk very much on the first date”
    “Don’t open up too fast”
    “Don’t call him and rarely return his calls”

    Seems like following those rules would make it very difficult to identify compatibility.

    • You would think! Doesn’t sound like a very good method for a healthy relationship.

      • yeah but you’d be surprised how many women can be like that. It’s kind of weird, because women don’t like being valued just for their looks and body right? But then with dating, a lot of girls often aren’t even showing their personalities. So girls want guys to like them more for their bodies and more for their personalities, but then when a guy goes on a date or like uses bumble and tries to have a conversation. She may talk about herself, but doesn’t joke, doesn’t show humor and is really basic. But then requires the guy to do the talking, jokes, charm and be interesting and make the convo fun or else it’s boring and she loses interest.

        Yes girls will be that if they aren’t interested in guys. But you’d be surprised how many respond back and ask questions and are interested, but still really don’t do much in making the convo fun or interesting and put the whole burden on the guy. So it feels like a contradiction. I believe women are obviously more than their looks and such and I like a good personality. But it feels like “ok I’m trying to get to know you and well I’m sure yuou want to be valued more than your personality…sooooo like show some please” I hated that with dating apps particularly but I’ve seen many guys complain whether dates or texting girls and the girls just go very basic in their convos. I thought if you wanted men to value your personality, you’d show it and how attractive it is, right?

        And I read an article about Neil Strauss. I showed the light on pick up artists and misogyny. And while the efforts of the puas might not be that way, it feeds a culture or sub culture of men who are attracted to this, like a cult. Who have misogynistic thoughts, the incels, mra, mgtow, etc. And I read how Neill Strauss and Mystery, known puas. Were miserable and depressed during their pick up times. Neil Strauss I guess got out of it, is married and has kids and removed himself from his ways. It’s true these guys can’t keep relationships and it’s because it’s a facade. It’s manipulation and not good as even though it may get a guy sex. These women don’t like the guys and why relationships don’t work. And probably because these guys don’t really have anything to provide and the women eventually see through it. The charm, humor, is not genuine, it’s manufactored and tailored to attract women. PUAs are not true to themselves and as a result, they don’t provide the worth to women to want to invest their time and love to such guys and I can’t blame these women.

      • I suspect that some women have poor social skills so they rely on their bodies. But that doesn’t tend to lead to healthy relationships. Some men have poor social skills too.

        Yep: “The charm, humor, is not genuine, it’s manufactored and tailored to attract women.” I think men don’t have to make the conversation fun so much as real. Depending on what the guy wants. If he wants a strong relationship real is better. Just getting to know who both of you are.

  27. Being open, honest and behaving naturally worked alright for me.

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