Shades of Craving Your Own Abuse

imagesI’ve mused over why so many women want Fifty Shades of Grey. Some may crave a brief escape from the power and responsibility of their lives. Others may fetishize their own disempowerment. Random happenings may play a role. And certainly, a media blitz that eroticizes the degradation and torture of women can end up living in women’s own heads.

Some stick to fantasy and role-play. Others come to accept, or even crave, their own abuse.

Alisa Valdes was raised a feminist but eventually learned to submit when she met “the Cowboy.” What began as obedience turned violent, as when he:

dragged me down the hall to the bedroom, bent me over, and took me, telling me as he did so that I must never forget who was in charge.

The violence escalated and she eventually leapt from a moving truck, fearing he would kill her.

Or, I read this on the feminist blog, Jezebel:

“Hit me. Harder. Hard.” …

I slapped her as hard as I could. She made a noise, like crying but also like a hot intake of breath. She nodded. I did it again, a little less hard. I could see her face darkening and didn’t want to leave a mark. My hand stung. I assumed her face hurt more… As we fucked increasingly hard, she made noises I didn’t know. I took them as cues, so I would slap her as hard as I could, as hard as she seemed to want. 

Another woman posted this comment on my blog:

However, as far as the violent sex goes, I will admit being one of those women who enjoys it. 

I also know from experience, however, that violent sex is addicting and only induces more desire for increased violence, which almost became borderline physically dangerous sometimes.

We experience pain for a reason. It is a warning to stop whatever we are doing because it is harming us. People who lack pain receptors die young.

Does this eroticization teach women to crave their own abuse? Almost like a backlash to a movement that teaches men not to abuse and that teaches women they don’t have to take it?

A counterblast to a society that now provides women’s shelters, hot lines and mandatory arrest? Maybe we can get you to crave your own abuse, without complaint?

That’s one of my worries about the Dominance/submission trend, which includes the appeal of Fifty Shades.

In my next post in this series, I’ll look at how sexualizing male dominance keeps male dominance sexy. After that I’ll consider the other side: pro-orgasm feminism that wants women to cum, however they cum.

Popular Posts on BroadBlogs
Why Women Want Shades of Grey
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Enslaving Sex Objects

About BroadBlogs

I have a Ph.D. from UCLA in sociology (emphasis: gender, social psych). I currently teach sociology and women's studies at Foothill College in Los Altos Hills, CA. I have also lectured at San Jose State. And I have blogged for Feminispire, Ms. Magazine, The Good Men Project and Daily Kos. Also been picked up by The Alternet.

Posted on June 24, 2013, in feminism, objectification, pornography, psychology, sex, sexism, violence against women, women and tagged , , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 42 Comments.

  1. Some women want intimacy regardless of the price, and the price doesn’t matter as long as it feels like a choice. For them, the end justifies the means.

    • And others actually get turned on by it.

      • I’ve always wondered if that was just a by-product of the situation, like a conditioned response. Of course, I suppose there are those who get turned on by the idea without experiencing it first. To each his own, I guess.

      • Plenty of women get turned on without experiencing in real life, AND may not want to experience it in real life. They read “Shades” and get aroused but don’t want to do anything in real life. Others want to role play without any physical abuse. Others get aroused by their own abuse.

      • Seems that there’s a line that gets crossed when fantasy becomes reality. I’ll bet some only cross it once.

  2. Great post. and absolutely the case. I have yet to meet a women having sex with men that hasn’t had the issue of women’s submission during sex come up in some way.

  3. For many BDSM and the dom/sub sexual roles are a sort of release from the outside world, it allows those who feel a lack of control to feel power, and those who feel pressure from responsibility to relinquish power. Done in a safe and loving environment handcuffs, slapping, whips, rope work, and such can add a bit of sensation that many find genuinely pleasing. That being said, media like the shades of grey series do not present these kinks for what they are. The media portrays the fetish community in an entirely patriarchal way which can make women believe they are expected to fulfill such desires. When it comes to sex, everybody enjoys different things, and it is up to each individual to decide what is going to be for them, and what is not. If you have a dom partner, and you are not a sub, then you should be finding other ways to enjoy each other. And most importantly, do not ever assume that a person will enjoy your kink. From my understanding this series preaches exactly the opposite, if the kink is not shared by both, than it is abuse.

  4. Pain releases endorphins, and in a similar way that cutting helps soothe pain. I have self-harmed long ago and the initial sting was quickly drowned out by the mental reasons for desiring the cut, and the endorphins would help to lower your mental pain in a form of both distraction and the chemical effect of the hormone. My guess is that during sex the feelings are probably elevated and this plays some role along with the kinkyness of it. I wouldn’t mind being slapped in a non-damaging area such as the buttock (avoid the back since you can hurt your kidney, avoid the face since it’s super sensitive, etc) during sex.

    The most important thing to know about sexuality is that fantasy and desire DO NOT FOLLOW SOCIAL RULES, hence why kink exists, hence why taboo exists because fantasy can be elevated by things we don’t normally do. These situations are not actually abusive unless you do not want them. Being tied up, whipped, etc when you desire it is not abusive even if violent, if a person wants to be punched in the face it’s still not abusive, it’s just violent but consenting. Abuse is strictly when it becomes against someones will. Many people fantasize about violent sex, and more rarely abuse and rape but even then if the act is roleplayed then it’s not actually rape or abuse. Such is the strangeness of sexuality. I’m just glad I like pretty vanilla stuff! BDSM doesn’t do anything for me and it is a bit confusing that it does stuff for others but then again humans are damn confusing.

    • I have this discussion in my classes, and a point that I will be making in a future post is that if someone seeks release from cutting, they would be much better off seeing a therapist in dealing with their issues.

      Pain is there for a reason. It is telling you to stop doing something that you are doing because it is harmful.

      If you are harming yourself (physically or spiritually — making yourself lower than others), that is a form of self-abuse — even if you crave it.

      On your other point that sexuality has nothing to do with society, that is completely untrue. If you read my “about” page you will see the one of the things I’m most interested in is the social construction of sexuality.

      Our sexuality is extremely socially constructed – mostly so.

      The desire for dominance comes from a society that is patriarchal. It’s more common for women than for men to have fantasies about submission. And you don’t find this sort of thing in non-patriarchal societies.

      Of course, as I’ve mentioned in another post, once you come up with the idea of domination and submission you can switch around so that women may become a dominatrix.

      But think about how in other ways sexuality is different in different cultures. What’s considered sexy in terms of a woman’s body shape, and body hair, varies from place to place. In some places the male body is considered sexy. In other places, not. Some places have a breast fetish, others don’t. How you have sex: doggy style versus missionary position, etc. Oral or anal sex is considered horrendous in some societies and a huge turn on and others. We got the term missionary position because the native women of the Americas had never had sex the way missionaries did. The double standard is cultural. You don’t find it everywhere. I could go on… And I will in future blog posts.

      • I didn’t say society has nothing to do with sexuality, I meant that fantasy isn’t always socially acceptable such as fantasizing about polygamy in this current monogamy loving society, fantasizing about rape, cheating, etc. Similar to how when some of us play violent video games, the actions are not socially acceptable but they are fantasy. Society plays a huge part in sexuality hence why we have taboos.

  5. I like the idea of pro-orgasm feminism. I also like how you lay down the facts about pain receptors. Ideology is a powerful thing that can make individuals crave their own destruction.

  6. Interesting post Georgia. I agree with many of the points however as someone who knows a number of BDSM practitioners personally, and has engaged in it myself I’d like to make a few points.

    Firstly, although it does occur, abuse is quite rare in BDSM circles and relationships, much more so than in the general population. From my studies and personal experiences BDSMers tend to be among the most respectful, ethical and gentle people you can find. Abusive, dangerous or disrespectful people tend not to last very long in the BDSM world.

    Secondly at least as many men enjoy erotic submission, as women. Femdom, face sitting, cheating wife, hot teacher and cuckolding are consistently among the most popular porn genres so clearly submission is also a very popular fantasy among men. BDSM is also popular among same sex relationships where the male dominance aspect becomes irrelevant as they are either both males, or there are no males at all.

    Thirdly it is always the submissive that ultimately is in control. The Dominant serves to enable the sub to live out a particular fantasy, and thanks to safe words, safe signs and a detailed pre negotiation, in which it is established exactly what will and wont occur during a session, the submissive is always, ultimately, in charge.

    And finally BDSM is not primarily practiced by those who have been abused in the past. This is a myth perpetuated by mainstream representations of BDSM designed to show the fetish in a negative or scary light.

    I do agree that 50 shades and other mainstream representations of BDSM do more harm than good. However there are a great many BDSMers out there that are just as, if not more, happy and healthy than your average person. I write extensively on this topic in my new book, I provide a detailed section on how to practice BDSM safely, sanely, consensually and ethically for those who are interested. People will continue to be attracted to this form of sexual expression so it is important that people are shown the right way to engage in it and not simply told that they are sick or deranged.

    There will always be psychos who will use BDSM as a cover for their abuse, but there tends to be far more abuse outside of BDSM communities than there is in it. There is plenty wrong with media representations of patriarchal male dominance, and with society as a whole. Rape culture and slut shaming is rife and must be combatted through action and education. I’m definitely with you on those points.

    Sorry for the long comment lol, just thought I’d share my opinion on the subject :-)

    Thanks for sharing!

    Rohan.

    • Thanks for the input.

      Of course, I’m not done with this series, yet. I have yet to post on the pro-orgasm feminist side.

      And I already made some of the points you make in this post:

      Why Women Want Shades of Grey

      http://broadblogs.com/2013/04/29/why-women-want-shades-of-grey/

      The point of this post is my concern with situations where women come to crave their own abuse even as we are moving away from the abuse of women, more generally, in Western cultures.

      As I mentioned in an earlier post, once you have the idea of sexual dominance that comes from patriarchy, you can switch it around so that men may want to be submissive, too.

      My concern for both women and men who are submissive comes when they begin to do things that actually harm them, that are actually abusive.

      I don’t think that that is good for either men or women. I find it worrying. And I think it’s something that needs to be discussed and no one seems to want to discuss it — I guess because it seems repressive.

      My concern is with making a distinction between things that are healthy and things that are not and considering what aspects of this may or may not be healthy.

      • It is my belief that consenting, conscious adults have the ability to choose to incorporate pain, role play, bondage and power exchange into their sexual activities. I do not believe that all BDSM activity is inherently abusive.

        Many people willingly engage in activities that involve pain including sport, martial arts, yoga, dance, muscle building, tattoos, piercings and general rough housing. The same could be said for role play. Reenactment and drama groups act out scenarios that involve power exchange and hierarchy. I’ve practiced drama and martial arts myself.

        I’m not trying to justify any form of abuse, I would never do that, and there are are absolutely people who use dangerous sex in the same way others use drugs or alcohol. These people require intervention in order to deal with the underlying issues. I’m totally with you there. I just don’t think we should make sweeping generalisations as there are a great many happy and healthy practitioners of BDSM. A recent European study even found that of the people surveyed BDSMers showed slighter better mental health overall, when compared with non BDSM practitioners.

        I respect your work and your opinion Georgia, and god knows I have my issues with porn and the media. And I do agree that this issue is worth talking about. I’m just offering the opinion of someone who has met a lot of decent, ordinary kinky folk :-)

        Sending hugs because I don’t want differences of opinion on this subject to cause a rift or anything ;)

        Rohan

      • First, I wasn’t making sweeping generalizations. I never said that it was inherently abusive. You don’t seem to notice that I make a distinction between role-playing and actual abuse. I go into this more in my final piece in the series.

        That said, my own personal morality is based on a standard of harm. If harm is occurring it is wrong in my book and I would strongly suggest doing the BDSM thing in a non-harming way.

        Otherwise, I always appreciate your comments Rohan. Discussion and exchange of ideas is really important.

        And I love your blog and would recommend it to anyone.

  7. I reread the posts and your comments, and you are right, we are basically in agreement. I guess I’m a little sensitive to articles like this as I worry that all BDSM will be tarred with the same brush.

    I have a big problem with the same people that you do; those who would use BDSM as a cover or justification for manipulation or physical or psychological abuse. It is scary to think that actual serious harm could be taking place under the guise of consensual roleplay. I can tell you that no kink scene or community would be happy with that kind of thing.

    This stuff definitely needs to be talked about, and I look forward to your next post :-)

    Rohan.

  8. The words, “We experience pain for a reason.” in the article made sense to me. Foe whatever reason, people should’t harm someone. Even though some women ask pertners to slap or beat them in order to get sexual aroused, and they seem to enjoy being beaten, partners shouldn’t be physically violent. Whenever I read articles about violence toward women I feel sick and sad, and I never understand. How come this kind of behavior happens between loved partners supposedly :(

    • “How come this kind of behavior happens between loved partners supposedly.”
      What I find is actually pretty sickening the level of disgust others are showing towards people doing activities which are consenting and not actually harmful when done in such a manner. What right do you have to try dictate to others what is acceptable and what isn’t? They participate WILLINGLY in these activities and use pain as an added bonus because pain itself turns them on.

      Pain is not always a bad thing, the burning from muscles after working out lets you know to rest for a while but it also indicates you’ve done a good workout as your body will repair those muscle cells and become stronger for it.

      There is a massive difference between consenting violence and non-consenting violence, just like with sex.

      • Hopefully Runa has a comments subscription and will get back to you.

        But pain actually is a warning sign to stop doing something. I have a history of biking and jogging and the only times I have felt actual pain are when I’ve injured myself or have o redone it. When I kept going I just made the injury worse.

      • When I lift weights I get “the burn”, it gets better over time but to actively build muscle you will have some pain. Pain is a warning sign to be aware of something, to slow down, change position, or for some it’s a way to spice up their relationship and mix pleasure with pain. Using a whip for some will turn them on greatly and if done right the pain n sting will be the worst that happens with no major damage. Personally I’m not into pain during sex, although a light slap on my ass or something won’t bother me but I do have friends who enjoy more pain.

        There are different levels of pain of course and from what I can tell the bondage stuff is using mostly sharp style pain that lasts for a few seconds vs the dull ache style pains. A sharp style pain will elevate your adrenaline + endorphin levels which is probably a lot of why it’s so alluring to some, the pain is negative but your body is experiencing positive feelings from the body’s response to that pain.

      • Pain’s a warning. Pay attention.

      • Umm, no. Pain is a neccessity to build muscle. Muscle fibres have to tear in order to rebuild with higher density and strength, this is basic weightlifting 101. http://www.wisegeek.org/how-is-muscle-damage-repaired.htm
        Excruciating pain is a warning sign, but if you do not feel your muscles “burning” after a workout and your goal is to increase your muscle strength then you haven’t done enough weight and/or repetitions.

      • I’ve built muscle w/out pain.

      • “I’ve built muscle w/out pain.”
        http://www.builtlean.com/2012/07/04/lactic-acid-build-up/ – That is the pain I refer to, it can be so mild you don’t feel it but a day or 2 after a good workout you should feel the burn, which is what I feel and basically everyone I know. During the exercise itself however you don’t feel any sharp pain as that would indicate a problem. The burning pain is an indicator that your muscles have had the fibres torn n are repairing, if you never feel that then you are very lucky!

        Other “good” pains include spices burning the tongue such as chilli.

      • I have never experienced the muscle burn you describe while doing weight training, and my instructors never said it was necessary or positive, so I can’t comment.

        Scientific American on spicy food:

        The chemicals (in spicy food) fool *pain receptors whose real purpose is to register critical events, like damage to the skin and the inflamation that often results.* The tenderness around an injury is caused in part by the response of these same nerves to chemicals released in the skin.

        http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-is-it-that-eating-spi

        So these chemicals perform a trick.

        However, when hitting or whipping a person, harm is likely. The human body has pain receptors to try to motivate us to avoid this sort of harm — and to be empathetic enough to avoid inflicting this sort of harm on others.

        I worry when any society eroticizes the abuse of women, men, peoples of various ethnicities by a dominant ethnicity, children or animals. Right now that eroticization is focused most fully on women. I worry that so many simply accept it.

      • Why wouldn’t we accept what adults do in their bedrooms? They have agency and make decisions for themselves on what they like to do and to act as if the eroticization of physically painful but mildy harmful activities is somehow inherently bad is to treat their agency as if it is tainted.

        Plenty of sports I’ve played have had harm, the impact of body to body contact during football for instance, the occasional blocking of a soccer ball with your leg or chest, boxing, martial arts, pain is a part of many enjoyable activities because we as humans can choose to engage in them and the benefits outweigh the risks. Pain is simply a warning, that’s it. Severe pain is a severe warning just like seeing blood is a visual warning that you have an injury, a bruise indicates the injury, a red mark from a spank indicates an injury, fast and hard sex can leave bruises yet be very exciting for some. The body does heal, BDSM for instance, most of the injuries are very minor and do heal.

        The bodies response to pain is to release chemicals which feel great, endorphins, and the rush from the adrenaline also feels great so when you mix that with sexuality, orgasms, etc the combination can be very nice for those who are into it. One woman I know showed me the injuries of her recent spanking session which she very very much enjoyed, I thought it was strange yes but who am I to judge what she likes? The bruises will heal up and it obviously is something she chose 100% herself, society didn’t force her, she chose because it’s what turns her on.

        What I worry about the most is that attitudes like this seem to dismiss the agency of the person involved to choose what they desire. It is not bad if a LOT of people enjoy the activity even if it has pain, it is bad if the damage is permanent and excessive, it is bad if people are forced into it, it’s bad if they are doing it to please someone else and secretly hate it. BDSM is still a social taboo, it’s a “fetish”, it’s “kinky”, I very much doubt the majority of people engage in it but even so I accept it when it’s adults making their own choice and not leaving long lasting harm, done with fully safety with safewords. It may be a surprise but even people whom engage in BDSM have empathy, they have to understand the other persons limit and stay within that. I would say it requires a huge amount of empathy to perform right since it’d be quite easy to go overboard and not only harm the person but the experience wouldn’t be positive anymore. The big part of empathy for people is to simply avoid inflicting UNWANTED harm, otherwise you could easily argue that doctors are sick because they willingly harm people even if for a positive outcome (such as surgery).

      • My standard of morality is based on harm. Even if consenting adults choose to harm themselves, or allow harm, or crave harm, I believe that it is wrong.

        And it’s not so much a choice as an internalization that removes choice.

        For instance, many women choose to stay in abusive relationships, but these relationships are harming and I believe they are wrong. I believe it is wrong for women to accept being called sluts and bitches just because they have internalized that they are secondary and should accept that shit. I think that it is wrong for women to accept being secondary in society, and let men take the lead or accept less pay, etc., just because they have internalized it. Because it does harm.

        And I am totally pissed off by a culture that eroticizes the abuse of women so that women internalize it and agree to harm themselves — and even crave their own harm.

        That comes out of a sick society.

        I wholeheartedly agree with the commentor who said this on another post:

        http://broadblogs.com/2013/06/17/learning-to-like-torture-in-shades-of-grey/

        I find this post extremely frustrating because it points out an issue that bothers me so much. I have always struggled with the fact that morally (and in general) I am completely disgusted by degrading and torture of women, but when it comes to sexual fantasies, I feel completely differently. I think that this is a serious problem and needs to be addressed by my and the coming generations. I think it is perfectly fine to enjoy D/s if that’s what you’re into, however I do not think it should be subconsciously shoved into the minds of every girl growing up in our society. I hope that everyone who reads this does something to help, because that is the only way it will get better. Thank you Georgia.

        I especially like this sentence: “however I do not think it should be subconsciously shoved into the minds of every girl growing up in our society.”

        I think I will add another post to this series, discussing all of this.

        (PS, I also think it’s wrong to have boxing that destroys men’s brains and the concussions in football, as well. We need more humane sport, not craving watching sports that lead men to destroy themselves.)

      • I completely agree on restricting stuff which can subconsciously lead to people being abused or craving abuse. BDSM however is not anything like actual abuse and it is a bit silly to compare the two, as abuse has no positive because if it did have a positive it would be simply a kink or bdsm or something non-abusive. The abuse is when it’s done against someones will which is the big issue. Someone who wants to engage in BDSM should do so in a controlled manner with safe words, limits, and a partner whom has a very very high empathy level that is required to know those limits and keep it fun. Being tied up and light spanking will be ok if you trust that person and know they are going to respect your wishes, I would let my partner tie me up if I trusted her (although I would prefer easy-undo knots) and that’s about as far as I go for that.

        We have to be careful though in respecting the peoples choices whom partake in it, so we don’t end up pushing our morality onto them and treating them like they are damaged goods who cannot think for themselves.

      • You totally don’t get my point. Finish reading my series on this and then if you still have something to say let me know.

  9. From my point of view, people who find pleasure in painful feelings (either physical or emotional) are playing with fire. Sadomasochism is a dangerous thing no matter how many safety precautions you have. For example, you think eating doughnuts is something everyone does. Nothing is harmful about it. But you’re wrong. If you consume it too much, you will have higher risk of heart disease and diabetes – two of the most deadly diseases worldwide. In other words, people who likes BDSM should learn to control themselves and their emotions.

  10. I think a lot of the success of 50 Shades of Grey must be due to marketing. Last year I did a course in book publishing, and the editors presented us that trilogy as the new best-seller even BEFORE it had been published in my country. A few months later, I saw each and every middle-aged woman reading this garbage everywhere, as the marketing geniuses had predicted. Fortunately, it seems to have sunk into oblivion by now.
    The sad thing is people will read whatever thing you sell as a best-seller. The responsibilty here is for the publishers; they have the power to infect women’s minds with mysoginistic messages or not doing it.

    However, I’m quite familiar with the fanfiction world, which is largely comprised by anonymous women writing for other women. A lot of the stories are BDSM-themed, or even depict rape in a sexualized way. But surprise, surprise, most of the abuse in those stories is made by men on other men, not on women. This gives one a good insight into what real fantasies have women when writing or reading in private. The difference is that these fanfiction stories will never have a marketing campaign spreading them, as 50 Shades of Grey had.

    • You could be right.

      But these sorts of fantasies are also very common with women. And I’m concerned about a culture that creates a situation where women fantasize about their own submission and abuse and enact it in real life.

      • I agree. I’m also very concerned with that. Whenever I hear a woman saying that she enjoys submission and it’s completely voluntary, I can’t avoid the suspicion that, even if there may be some genuine and natural taste for it, a big part it’s just social brainwashing. When I hear a man saying the same things, on the other hand, I’m more inclined to think that it’s truly a natural taste.
        It would be interesting, nonetheless, to have actual and reliable statistics that showed how many men and women have submissive fantasies or practice submissive BDSM roles. Maybe the real numbers are more even than what we think, but the media is trying to push the idea that submission is a woman’s thing.

        However, I prefer to be optimistic. One of the best things the internet has brought is that it’s displacing mainstream culture at many levels. Until now all entertainment came from corporations (that is, from white upper-class straight men). Now at last women can create their own entertainment, and as I said before, their fantasies turned out to be very different than what media tried to sell us, as with the fanfiction example I gave above.

      • I’m pretty sure that socialization is always involved since you don’t find this sort of thing in every culture. Once you come up with men dominating women it’s not that hard to switch it around and have fantasies about women dominating men. Or men dominating other men, etc.

        I’ll have to look around and see if I can find any data on how often women do this compared with men – take the submissive role.

        There’s certainly way more imagery out there, and even our language puts women secondary. So I would imagine that women would be more likely to take a secondary/submissive role.

  11. I understand sexual fetishes and I think there is dominance without the hitting or there’s light stuff. But I guess what provoked my curiosity and worry is what it could condition in a person. Obviously a poster said an abusive person is not wanted and perhaps less abuse in the bdsm community that general population. Then again there will be more abuse in general population because there is a greater probability of in it general population because much great population (more people, more chance of various things, math-game of probability), plus abusive people not allowed. However, the thought of abuse is the controlling, abusive guy, that is insecure and uses his dominant on his gf, wife to gain control. Like you learn in health class, the cycles of abuse. But I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about a regular guy who is not insecure and not abusive, but might have an A type personality and temper but of course believes its wrong to hit a woman, as many men do and maybe the one decent thing taught in our culture about how men should act.

    But what worries me about bdsm is the extreme stuff with man whacking and the violent sex. The reaosn is because like I said, can this condition and otherwise, non abusive man to turn on a switch? Sure some say it’s consentual and just happens with sex, but a man gets used to hitting his woman during sex, can it slip his mind if he ever gets in a heat confrontation or say she slaps him and he’d otherwise not doing anything, but almost instintictively hit her? and then be like oh my god, I didn’t meant to do that, I’m so sorry after hitting her?.

    • I haven’t seen any studies on this so I can’t say for sure. It wouldn’t surprise me. But a woman once wrote on my blog saying that she had gotten into this and, over time, kept wanting to be hit harder and harder, which she saw as problematic.

      And of course I worry about all of the other things I write about, too.

  12. Basically, I would be freaked out as a man if a woman wanted me to hit her during sex, even though it turned her on or she wanted it. The choking thing too is uncomfortable for alot of guys as well. Because morally speaking and socially speaking, many guys grow up learning that it is very bad to hit a woman. Even though it’s regarding sex, I would be uncomfortable doing so, because I think it’s good I don’t want to and am not comfortable of hitting a woman. And that’s why the extreme bdsm thing scares me a little, as will a man who doesn’t believe in hitting women. Start to become desensitized and be a bit too comfortable from hitting his woman during sex even though it’s consentual? And a lapse of judgement happen during a very heated confrontation and he puts his hands on her, because he got used to during sex and even though it hasn’t chaged his view that hitting women is bad. But from getting used to being violent with a woman during sex, he slips out of this judgment and hits or pushes her, but then feels bad for his reaction that ehe didn’t know he had? But was brought out from his bdsm relations? Seems like blurred lines could develop and I’m not talking about during sex, but outside of sex and how it could condition a man. That’s why I can’t get into that, maybe some butt slapping and light hair pulling, but not the other stuff. Because I would never want to get comfortable hitting a woman even if it’s consentual sex, just because of the reasons I explained.

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