Real Men Competing With Porn Stars

Myths_Truths-300x300We should not ignore the effects porn can have on a man’s self-image. I knew a man who was unconfident because his erection was “only 17cm long” (around 7″) and he could last “only up to 20 minutes.” When I asked what he thought was normal, he said in porn everyone had a foot-long penis and could keep going for an hour on end.

I asked whether it had occurred to him that if a normal woman were penetrated for an hour by a foot-long object, she would most certainly end up in the emergency room.

He was dumbfounded.

That’s a blog comment from Natalie, to which a Mark responded:

It is absolutely true that if men are holding women to a higher level of expectation in sexual performance, men are also holding themselves to a higher level of expectation. Yes, men are also conditioned to think that they need to have a monster-sized penis and last for several hours without ejaculating.

A lot of men find themselves competing with porn stars and coming up short. Besides huge cocks men may have to compete with idealized physiques.

On the other hand, plenty of “ugly” male stars manage to get “perfect” looking women. The “ugly” stars are hired to help Average Joe feel like he really can get that girl on screen: “If she likes sex with him she’ll looove sex with me!” But when Average Joe can’t nab Miss Perfect he may wonder what’s wrong.

Upping the ante, porn stars come every time. What if Average Joe can’t? And what if his partner, Average Jane, can’t either? And when she does, it takes more time than expected.

And, why don’t the same moves that “work” in porn work on all of his partners? And why don’t they all love threesomes, orgies, anal, facials, swallowing, bondage… In porn women are always horny and just need a man to satisfy them.

Now add on guy-talk. As WebMd put it:

When men do talk, they often puff themselves up to their peers. Less apt than women to discuss their insecurities and more inclined to exaggerate their exploits, men paint distorted pictures of their sex lives for one another.

So it seems like everyone else gets more exciting sex, more often, and with more partners.

Most people want pleasure and connectedness from sex. But then feel short-changed if their sex lives aren’t porn-worthy.

Maybe we’d be happier if we remembered what we really want.

Cross-posted at The Good Men Project.

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About BroadBlogs

I have a Ph.D. from UCLA in sociology (emphasis: gender, social psych). I currently teach sociology and women's studies at Foothill College in Los Altos Hills, CA. I have also lectured at San Jose State. And I have blogged for Feminispire, Ms. Magazine, The Good Men Project and Daily Kos. Also been picked up by The Alternet.

Posted on April 22, 2013, in men, pornography, psychology, relationships, sex, women and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 45 Comments.

  1. I think women take a terrible self-esteem battering at the hands of the media. Men don’t have it so bad but we’re certainly not unscathed.

  2. Interesting and important subject matter. I’ve thought a lot about how porn negatively affects women but have never really considered how it can negatively affect men.

  3. Great post, I’m writing about this exact subject at the moment in my latest non fiction book. I honestly worry for the teens growing up with instant access to fantasy porn as their main source of sexual education and exposure. Too much exposure to hardcore porn can and does totally warp young people’s sexual expectations of themselves and their partners.

    Now impotence is common in guys in their 20′s when it was once a much older men’s issue. Young guys are so trained to get off to porn, that real sex often cannot compete resulting in sexual dysfunction and all the confusion that comes with it. Which is really sad because partner sex can be so much more fulfilling than 5 minutes with some plastic looking, drugged up porn stars.

    Thanks for sharing and spreading the word :)

    Rohan.

  4. Ps. I might also add that longer, full body masturbation can also be a deeply satisfying and pleasurable experience. Plus it trains us to enjoy better partner sex. But when it’s always the quick fix masturbation to porn just to get that dopamine rush, that’s when the problems occur.

    I’m totally pro masturbation, and I’m not against porn from a moral standpoint. It’s just that too much exposure is detrimental to our overall sense of health and well being, sexual and otherwise!

    Rohan.

  5. Interesting! I did not know men compete with porn stars. I thought they usually only notice women in the porn. Sometimes, they say they envy those porn stars that can have sex with so many women. I won’t say watching porn is bad, but is there any positive? One rapist said he committed the crime because he saw too many porns.

  6. It’s sad but true that men compare their sex life to porn stars and feel disappointed that they cannot match up to porn stars. If you think about it though men have to have something to compare it to or they will not have any set standard.

  7. In my opinion, i agree with this blog because it is true that most men are insecure about their penis size and watching porn can make them feel insecure. But of course the porn star will have a bigger one and last much longer only because they can take pills and there is a lot of technology out there that can make them look big. It seems men are always comparing their selves to others to make sure there better or stronger. Now as for there sex lives, they feel they cant lose on that one.
    Its also sad that men think how do ugly porn stars get a nice and sexy women? Well like i said before its all a script and there getting paid for it. I think men need to look outside the box more so that way they can understand that porn is all scripted and it will never change.
    Women also have problems with this because of course almost all lady porn stars have plastic surgery and it makes them look better and other women can sometimes start to feel insecure. Its also sad when over weight women start to feel this way and think why cant they look just as good. Most of it is all money!

  8. I believe there are a lot of camera angle tricks in pornography…since in our society – bigger is better. That being said, most guys do compare themselves to porn actors since it’s probably the only penis most guys have seen other than their own.

  9. Just like how women are used as sex symbols or for any other symbol, I feel like porn is a way that the man is almost showed off to the “average joe”. Meaning that when young girls see models in bikinis flaunting their bodies, these girls want to be that model one day. Just like the “average joe” wanting to have a bigger penis seeing that someone like him is able to have sex with the “perfect” girl. That pops the question of why don’t women have the mindset of having sex with that “perfect” guy while she is “average jane”?

  10. I Personally believe that porn actors are cheaters and that 90 percent of them are as fake as body builders or women with implants. They take all of these supplements quote unquote steroids to enhance that certain part of the male body. Pills, drinks, treatments, ect. and at the end of the day is it all really worth it?
    Here are some facts a vagina is at average between 3-6 inches deep unaroused and when aroused: 7-9 inches deep so all that foot long bullshit is unnecessary and too much for the average women. If you can make the women you are sleeping with orgasm, you shouldn’t worry about anything else, if she has an orgasm most of the time she is satisfied and has no complaints.
    So for all the men out there that feel belittled by these juice taking weirdoes, don’t because you can satisfy a women just as well as they can if not better. Just a key pointer in all the matter if you have a real connection with the women you are with and the both of you love eachother then why does anything else matter?

    P.S. Foreplay is everyones game.

  11. Obligatory XKCD: http://xkcd.com/194/

    That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.

    On a side note, porn stars are ACTORS. They’re specifically chosen for how they appear on camera. Sometimes they’re intentionally attractive men. Other times they’re supposed to look more like the assumed audience, so that the viewer can imagine himself in place of the actor – a kind of “you, too, can have unrealistic sex with attractive women” deal.

    As a general rule, people shouldn’t be comparing themselves with actors or actresses. They’re picked in large part for their appearance. The odds of any random individual sharing the same traits as an actor or actress is remote, to say the least.

  12. I never really thought about how a man might feel about his body beyond having the abs. I mean you know guys talk about their penis all the time weather it is direct or indirect like my penis is big and long or I definitly satisfied that women. So you dont ever think about guys fellin insecure because you here them boast so much about their conquest or what they got, where else with us women we are always talking about what we dont have or wished we had and so on so this is definitly an interesting topic to me. It kind of brings guys and girls on the same level when you actually think about them being insecure about themselfs as well. I can see how pornos can skew a guys view on what or how sex actually is in the real world but if you think about wouldnt guys who have girlfriends that they are sexually active with know the truth about sex and women it may not help with their insecrities about their penis but at least everything else can be put in real world perspective so would this talk be generated more towards virigins?

  13. This is once again a very interesting post. I think that porn is good when wathced sometimes, but I also agree that watching too much porn will cause the ‘average Joe’ to have a decrease in self-confidence and self-esteem as they will be comparing themselves to pornstars that have bigger penises and can last longer during sexual intercourses. I think that too much porn will reduce the pleasures of your sex life, as you will have higher expectations for you partners and when they do not meet the expectations you will be utterly dissapointed. I have also read somewhere that a porn movie is recorded at not all at once, so porn stars does not really last that long. Another problem that I think can occur if a men who is in a relationship watches too much porn is that there will be a chance that that man will be dissapointed with his sex life, because they spend too much time watching how women pornstars are so good in bed and how sexy they are, and when they have sex with their partners they will be dissapointed, and this may lead to cheating witb other women in order to fulfill that expectations.

  14. 55,000 people (mostly men, but women too) give up porn (and masturbating) to see what they can achieve solely with real relationships… and give each other support on this message board: http://www.reddit.com/r/NoFap/
    Check it out? I have kept with this for 5 months and my life has greatly improved… there are ways I did not even realize my life was affected from watching porn starting at a young age :)

  15. The average joe SHOULD feel that a “beautiful” woman or man MAY want to date him, same for average women, the problem is when the expectation of that occurs. I have seen OOOODLES of average + hot partner combos from hot male, average female/hot female, average male/same sex couples with the same variation. Limiting ourselves to thinking of beauty as the holy grail standard where 5′s should only date 5′s is stupid. I have known plenty of great people who were both more, or less attractive people (as per my subjective taste, others vary) had great personalities. To limit myself to only dating people similar to me would be foolish, and I am glad porn has those combinations. If you look at amateur porn you can see a wide variety of men n women with varying combo’s of attractiveness, size, race, etc.

  16. This is a very interesting post. I never knew how porn effected guys and I thought they used it to boost their self esteem. I never thought about it in this light and this post changed my mind. I see how having these very stereotypically attractive men with large reproductive organs can make a man feel inadequate. It also puts pressure on women. Women know that men watch porn but many of them don’t themselves and if they do it is not for the same reason that guys do. I have been told my some of my female friends that they watch porn so that they know what a guy is expecting. They want to be, or at least seem to be, good in bed. They think that they will be able to imitate what porn stars do and therefore be better at arrousing a man. A lot of women don’t like that guys watch porn but because they think it will make they guy last longer and be better at arousing her, women are typically okay with it. Most women think guys watch porn for pleasure, which some might, but they don’t typically think that they watch them to see what is expected of them in bed. Thank you for posting this, it has given me a insight on a topic I thought I understood.

  17. Although I have never looked at pornography as having this type of effect on men, it does make plenty of sense. I always assumed that it boosted their ego versus making them second guess it. I guess we all have a difficult time in one way or another from separating any form of media from reality. I can understand how seeing somebody such as Ron Jeremy, someone who is extremely unattractive physically but is “well-endowed”. Any body who takes the time to think about the situation and how to be like him would assume that all girls care about is the size and skill of a man’s penis versus who they are as a person and how to create that intimacy that makes sex so enjoyable. If any man is reading this and can relate to the story of this blog, let me clear up the air about what women (I will speak on behalf of the majority). The greatest sex is when you share that personal, intimate, and vulnerable closeness. As the blog states, that not all woman have the stamina of the girls in those videos because we have real jobs that do not allows us to lay on our backs, day in and day out.

    • I watch porn because I am single. But I think most men watch porn simply to fantasize and get visual stimulation for masturbation, without comparing the pornstar to their partner if they have one. I also think most realize the typical fake porn doesn’t show realistic sex, amateur porn does though. And I don’t think many watch porn for closeness, closeness only really comes from real sex and porn is no substitute for sex for most men or women so I wouldn’t let it bother you as much. Most of my fantasies stay as fantasies, I fantasize about being James Bond but his life actually sucks, he’s wife get’s killed, he’s always in danger, that’s a shit life to lead but it can be fun to roleplay it in your mind.

      • It’s possible that most men simply fantasize and don’t take it too literally. In fact, one of my students wrote a blog post on his own experience on that very point:

        Porn Fantasy Mistaken for Reality

        http://broadblogs.com/2012/10/22/porn-fantasy-mistaken-for-reality/

        That said, he wrote the post in response to some men who were upset because their real-life partners weren’t acting like porn stars. (He had written it as a comment and I asked him if he would mind if I turned it into a post.)

        And the first 2 comments from “Real Men Competing With Porn Stars” are from real people who have talked about problems that real men (in one case, himself) have had in this regard.

        Women have also written about how the guys they are with expect them to act like porn stars. And one of the posts I think you are referring to comes from a professor, who studies men and porn, who constantly gets questions from women whose lovers want them to act like porn stars.

        Additionally, I have personal experience with men expecting our love life to be like that in porn. And in talking with some of them it became clear that they thought that what happened in porn was real.

        Michael Kimmel, who studies men and masculinity, has found the same thing, repeatedly. Take a look at his book called Guyland.

      • “Additionally, I have personal experience with men expecting our love life to be like that in porn. And in talking with some of them it became clear that they thought that what happened in porn was real.”
        Stuff like what? Nearly everything (excluding very rare fetishes) that happens in porn has a basis in reality for some people, just it may not be for everyone. Some of the stuff I fantasize about I don’t ever expect to happen, like 3somes, orgies, etc, which in fantasy can be quite sexy but in reality I’d be worrying like hell over STI’s + the issues regarding jealousy, not to mention the trust required to have sex like that + all the stigmas attached. My only desires for a real relationship is basic intercourse, no anal, hopefully oral (both of us), and just fun. Most common thing in porn apart from sex, is the enthusiasm for sex, people would do well to remember that happy n positive feelings in sex are the most common thing in porn that many people enjoy.

      • Well, I have been with guys who wanted to do threesomes in real life and anal and who thought that the porn stars they were watching were actually really into both of those things, rather than being actresses. And one guy was telling me about a porno he saw where a woman was gradually getting her vagina over a huge, giant penis, and he actually believed that that felt really good for her.

        And as I said before, I think, guys on this blog have complained that their partners don’t act like porn stars. Women have talked about how they watch porn to figure out what guys want. (They may not get your last point that enjoying sex is more important than imitating porn stars.) And other women have asked a professor who specializes in this about what to do about partners who want them to act like porn stars.

        Here’s more on the topic:

        Men Finding Fewer Women “Porn-Worthy”

        http://broadblogs.com/2012/07/30/men-find-fewer-women-porn-worthy/

        Real Women Competing With Porn Stars

        http://broadblogs.com/2011/01/18/real-women-competing-with-porn-stars/

        Men, Women & Internet Porn

        http://broadblogs.com/2012/04/18/men-women-internet-porn/

        Should Women Give Men The Porn-Star Experience?

        http://broadblogs.com/2011/08/03/should-women-give-men-the-porn-star-experience/

        Porn Fantasy Mistaken for Reality

        http://broadblogs.com/2012/10/22/porn-fantasy-mistaken-for-reality/

  18. I know a lot of people watch porn to learn what to do in the bedroom. I think it’s more easy for men to believe in it because porn is usually male-oriented fantasy world. Unfortunately, porn is not real and often causes more trouble. Studies find that men who are addicted to porn prefer porn over sex. Porn is also dangerous and has multiple effects on our society such as: rape, sexual abusive, domestic violence… Porn degrades and shows violence toward women. It often depicts the sex between men and women is only something lustful not love. We should have more lessons to educate people about the lies of pornography.

  19. Jenna Francisco

    I agree that men are more insecure about themselves by watching porn and yet they continue to watch these little episodes. This may be similar with how women are continuously insecure about their bodies but continue to watch media that makes them feel not skinny enough or magazines that show busty women. Because of porn, men probably feel that since those are the only other penises that some have viewed, that those are the average sizes and feel bad about what they have. Also, continuing from Khang’s point, porn is pretty dangerous because of the violence towards women and for men to try to compete with that can create people who desire to rape or hurt their partners since those pornography seems like the social norm from them sexually. I used to believe that porn just made women insecure about their bodies and performance but now i see that, although men use porn mostly for fantasies, men also feel the same way women feel about their bodies and performance.

    • Jenna, you’re making an awful lot of assumptions about porn and generalizing men pretty heavily there.

      I am a man and porn actually helped my self-esteem because I saw real amateur couples of all shapes n sizes together, all size penis’s, all shapes, colour, etc of vulva. I don’t watch violent porn and understand consent, I watch porn when I am single and it just helps to mull the lonely feelings if anything. I’d much rather an actual woman to be with but that’s far easier said than done especially if you don’t look great n have a decent career, plenty of money n other attributes many women (not all) find attractive.

  20. Guilherme Paludeti

    Porn is probably the worst thing for a man’s ego. Most of my friends when they describe their sexual experiences with random girls they act like they’re porn stars and say all that they did, but it always seems like they feel pressured to add extra details and spice it up to make it seem like the porn environment males are used to. Its funny because porn is completely fake, and very far fetched for the real thing, all porn does is put wrong ideas in woman’s and man’s mind(and of course the obvious). You can also compare their penis sizes to a basketball’s player in the NBA vertical(how high he jumps)…yea sure its big but the average person is nowhere near that.

  21. Pedro Contreras

    porn is probably one of the worst things for men because it makes men feel like they to be perfect and make a girl feel like they do in porn , but the girl is faking almost everything in porn it is all scripted , and most of my friends that talk about their sexual experience almost always add something extra. i never call them out on it but i know they are lying and they are just trying to act like they lasted for hours and they had the girl screaming and etc. and all of this is because of pron.

  22. ALOT of women think the avg size is too small.Women constantly berate,slam and judge guys on their size…and you do it ad nauseum.Pornography gives women their own genres for every body style imaginable,bbw,small boobs,obese,big boobs,amateur,redheads,brunettes,blondes,black,asian etc etc…however a guy in smut HAS to have a big d!ck period.The phalus is the lost objectified thing in porn….no wonder many guys feel they are worthless.Society pushes bigger is better to infinity and yet all we hear is how women are treated so poorly and held to unrealistic standards—gimme a f-n break! Funny whenever a woman feels bad or discriminated against or objectified these insecurities are constantly laid at the feet of the man.When a guy has a legitimate gripe about how women judge them on income,height,looks or penis size were often told by women to STFU,get over ourselves,preference bs card etc etc…no wonder so many guys off themselves these days.Over 74% of all suicides in the US are male,perhaps men should lay this at the feet of women who are becoming calus to the point of evil these days.

    • I get it. Guys have to go through on penis size what women go through on breast size.

      In both cases a lot of it is just talk and porn makes it seem like both are bigger deal than they are. It makes it seem like all men feel that way or all women feel that way when that’s not true at all.

      I’ve written on this topic on two or three posts — how people think it’s a bigger deal than it actually is in reality. Here’s one

      http://broadblogs.com/2013/07/05/how-to-pleasure-a-woman/

      And here’s an excerpt on penis size:

      “And then there’s the myth that bigger is better. It all depends. Length is great for women who enjoy having their cervix stimulated, say Meston and Buss. But the same stimulation can be painful for other women. And if the penis is too long, “it feels like you’re getting punched in the stomach,” Paget explains. “It makes you feel nauseous.” Still others feel neither pleasure nor pain—and often not much of anything.

      “Generally speaking, width is more important than length. But depending on the woman, some prefer larger and some smaller.”

      And Sebastian, I’ve written somewhere– I’m not sure which post–that only about 20% of women find a larger penis more pleasurable. Another 20% find a large penis painful. And for the rest, it makes no difference. Because most women get aroused through the clitoris and not the penis, so a big penis actually isn’t real helpful, Generally. Women don’t get aroused by looking at a penis either, or very rarely. see this: http://broadblogs.com/2013/08/08/sexy-weiner-3/

      And here is an excerpt on breast size — again, showing that while the culture makes a big deal about it, it’s not such a big deal in reality:
      Can A Small-Breasted Woman Be Sexiest Woman Alive?

      http://broadblogs.com/2012/10/10/can-a-small-breasted-woman-be-sexiest-woman-alive/

    • One other thing. I wonder why men blame women when they should be blaming patriarchy.

      First of all, the people who portray big penises as a must-have are men who create pornography.

      And, the reason white men have such a high suicide rate is because, with the extra privilege they have, they also have high expectations–much higher than any other demographic. If everyone had equal opportunities then white men wouldn’t have higher expectations than everyone else — which are so hard to live up to, and so depressing when you don’t.

      And I find it interesting that I write a blog post that is meant to be sympathetic to men and you respond this way. Why don’t you spend a little time thinking about that.

      I think I will write a blog post about this someday. Men being hurt by patriarchy, but blaming women instead of a system that harms us all.

      • Because the word patriarchy is just a fancy word for society but it also implies far more weight towards men being at fault, when women have heavily been involved in setting up and continuing the patriarchy. It starts to sound more like a cop-out word. High suicide rates aren’t much to do with privilege but in how society has pushed one group to be stoic and bury their feelings, expectations of being the provider in a world where your ability to provide can disappear quickly (like in the GFC).

        It could happen to lesser privileged groups too.

        By the way you are generalizing about who men blame. I personally think the large penis thing was something to do with tying masculinity up with your penis size and sexual prowess and has been around for millennia. Some women have helped keep the myth of it being better alive, eg the women I heard regularly in class asking guys about their penis size and going ga ga over the ones with longer ones.

        That said, to the original commenter, I’ve seen oodles of porn with guys with smaller penises. Things have changed a bit since internet-based companies came out.

        Remember that “the patriarchy hurts men too” PHMT is often a dismissive tactic.

      • It’s not a fancy word for society. Society does not have to be patriarchal.

        And it’s not blaming men.

        I have a couple posts coming up describing how patriarchy arose. For now all I will say is that it didn’t arise because men wanted to be mean to women. But now we have what we have. Women and men are both born under a culture of patriarchy, we both internalize it, and we both re-create it.

        For instance, I’ve been writing some posts on women asking men out for a date. And I will have more to say later, Including a discussion of this: because men are expected to be leaders, we expect men to take the lead in asking women out for a date. Men and women both grow up in a culture that teaches them this is the way it is supposed to be. And for the most part, both men and women re-create a culture in which men are active and leaders and women are passive and followers. Take anything and you will find the same pattern of both women and men being indoctrinated, having the way things are seem normal, and men and women working together to re-create patriarchy.

        re: High suicide rates aren’t much to do with privilege but in how society has pushed one group to be stoic and bury their feelings, expectations of being the provider in a world where your ability to provide can disappear quickly

        Those high suicide rates are all about privilege. I will be writing on this more later. So take John Adams family– Our second president. He has three boys and a girl. His oldest, John Quincy, was very privileged traveling around Europe with his father. He learned a ton. Because of that privilege he became our sixth president. The other two sons and daughter stayed home with mom. The two sons had extremely high expectations to live up to, between a father and a brother who were both Pres. Those are hard expectations to live up to. They both drank themselves to death. The daughter, being a woman, didn’t have the high expectations to meet. She married a man and had children. She didn’t get depressed and drink herself to death or commit suicide because she didn’t feel like she was failing at meeting high expectations. She’s just a girl. All a woman is expected to do is get married and have children. Most women have no problem meeting that standard. So there’s not a lot to commit suicide over in terms of expectations. And her brothers certainly didn’t kill themselves because their cocks weren’t big enough. You didn’t have porn and women didn’t sleep with a lot of men, And no one talked about that sort of thing.

        What evidence do you have that the big cock thing has been around since millennia?

        And what evidence do you have that many women actually care? Most don’t. If you want to make gender comparisons, I’ve heard way more men and women act like large breasts are such a huge deal. So women should be more likely to kill themselves. But that’s just stupid, Whether women or men killed themselves over such a stupid thing. Something else would have to be wrong other than that.

        And finally, why would women care how big of guy’s penis was. For 80% of women, it will not feel any better–and for many it will feel worse. And there is no visual arousal either? So why would they care?

        Some people, Both male and female, are insecure and have to put others down to build themselves up. Both will latch onto cultural concepts to do that. Whether the insult involves height, weight, being old, being blonde–all of which have been valued in some cultures and devalued in others — or insults that you find more universally, Like being poor.

        It’s not all people who act this way. It’s not all women who act this way. It’s not all men who act this way. So why accuse an entire group of people when it’s just a few insecure folks who are advertising and amplifying their insecurity by putting others down? They have to put someone down to feel big by comparison.

        And what you mean by saying “the patriarchy hurts men too” is a dismissive tactic. Is anything but dismissive. It is very true. It harms us all. It’s a call for women and men to join together to work for the equal worth and dignity of each person, male and female.

  23. To Archie and Sebastian,

    The thing I find most interesting in your comments is that I put up a post that is sympathetic to men and yet both of you attack me. That is very telling. It reveals that you are simply looking for any excuse you can — even making things up — to vilify women.

    As such, I will not be approving any more of your comments.

  24. I think we all feel the comparisons to what porn is like. Our fantasies often come out of porn and wondering what it would be like to be in a particular situation. So body characteristics would also make sense.

    I’m not sure about other girls but I have never had a conversation with other girls about a guys penis size. We talk about all kinds of things but not that. We are more likely to mention his smile, sense of humor, butt or abs so we can be a little shallow. But it is very true that it’s how you use it not what you have between your legs that matters to us girls. Plus larger guys makes it harder to do some things that you might want to do guys.

    So know that your penis size is more important to you than to us.

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